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fuel efficient driving uphill?

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: fuel efficient driving uphill?

Unread postby Judgie » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 01:21:38

chakra wrote: I suppose you could use neutral in an automatic, but it's more natural in a standard.



Do not put your automatic transmission in neutral while your car is moving. The transmission will drain it's fluid to sump, and this will reek quite a bit of havoc with the internals over time, if you do it often (say 3 or 4 times a week). The modern automatic transmission is essentially a fragile, precision crafted collection of hydraulics, and none of it is designed to run dry (unless we're talking the single speed trannies used in light rail diesel-mechanical applications, which are really nothing more than big viscous-couplings). This is one of the reasons why the manual that comes with your vehicle will say that an auto tranny car should not be towed for more than 20 kilometers, and that one should keep under 50 kilometers-per-hour when doing so.

Unless you want to completely uncouple and remove the tailshaft while pulled over on the verge. Not fun :shock:
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Re: fuel efficient driving uphill?

Unread postby Judgie » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 01:48:22

WisJim wrote:
EndOfGrowth wrote:
The wider the carb/injection pump is opened up, the more fuel you are using, regardless of rpm.


Some (not all) cars actually shut off the fuel to the fuel injection system (on some older Hondas, they shut it off to the carb) when the throttle setting and engine RPM are within certain limits, so that it isn't pumping fuel into a coasting engine, so the driver gets the benefit of "coasting" without doing something illegal, such as driving in neutral or with the clutch in. But most cars keep pumping fuel , wasting a lot in some situations.


I'm not too sure about the fuel-shut off feature (maybe you are thinking of displacement on demand?), as that is no better than having the car in neutral with the engine turned off. Why bother anyway, when my Holden V6 Ute, with a 4 speed auto, for example, uses less than 1 litre/100km (this is according to the instanteneous fuel use readout option that the trip computer has) when coasting. Idling is the same. On a highway maintaining 100km/h so that the ECU can enter a close-loop cycle, I usually get 8.5 liters per 100 kilometers. With the 59 liter tank, she's usually good for almost 700 kilometers, sometimes a bit more. Worst case is when towing a car trailer with two large hay rolls, and one in the ute-tray, is 14 - 15 liters per 100km. I don't treat it like I used to when I was 18 and had just got off my probationary license (21 going on 22 this year, and a much more mature driver :) ), so thats about as bad as it gets.

I'd like to sell it off and get a Suzie GS500, but from what i've been told, riding a motorcycle among today's car traffic is a (potentially fatal) accident waiting to happen, unless you happen to be a police officer wearing proper uniform. People usually avoid unknowlingly sideswiping them off the road. The people who tell me these things reckon that I shouldn't bother. What say you?
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Re: fuel efficient driving uphill?

Unread postby WisJim » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 10:05:01

Yes, they do shut the fuel off under certain conditions. Variable valve timing and variable displacement are other different systems. Honda did a good job with the variable valve timing in some of their engines.

The system that shuts off the fuel is pretty much the same as having the engine shut off when not needed, except that it is legal, (you aren't coasting, which is prohibited many places), and the engine is actually on and available if more power is needed, it just isn't using any fuel.
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Re: fuel efficient driving uphill?

Unread postby snax » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 00:06:18

Judgie wrote:Do not put your automatic transmission in neutral while your car is moving. The transmission will drain it's fluid to sump, and this will reek quite a bit of havoc with the internals over time, if you do it often (say 3 or 4 times a week). The modern automatic transmission is essentially a fragile, precision crafted collection of hydraulics, and none of it is designed to run dry (unless we're talking the single speed trannies used in light rail diesel-mechanical applications, which are really nothing more than big viscous-couplings). This is one of the reasons why the manual that comes with your vehicle will say that an auto tranny car should not be towed for more than 20 kilometers, and that one should keep under 50 kilometers-per-hour when doing so.

Unless you want to completely uncouple and remove the tailshaft while pulled over on the verge. Not fun :shock:

You are overgeneralizing here. There are many vehicles that do not have issues with the automatic transmission in neutral while moving. They key indicator however is the owner's manual. If it says not to tow it in neutral - DON'T coast in neutral either. But there is the additional dynamic of engine running vs. not. In many automatics, the hydraulic pump for the tranny is spun by the motor - whether the transmission is in gear or not, meaning it makes no difference if you coast in neutral with the engine on.

Still, it's fair warning to not do it until one knows for sure what is ok.
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Re: fuel efficient driving uphill?

Unread postby xrotaryguy » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 02:19:45

If you have to cover a long decent, then it might be a good idea to leave the car in gear to get some engine braking effect. In a light weight Honda though, this is possibly not terribly important.

I have turned the car off while going down hill many times. You have to be carefull not to turn the key to the lock position of course ;) I remember my dad doing this all the time in his (now my) corvair. Modern cars have the disadvantate (on this topic anyway) of having power brakes and power steering. These things will not work while the engine is off. If you were driving a Corvair, you wouldn't have to worry about power anything :)

The guys are right about building momentum before the hill. Truckers do this all the time. Not so much for gas mileage, but so they can maintain speed for as long as possible. An easy way to monitor your fuel economy is to install a vacuum gauge. A cheap vacuum gauge will only set you back about $15... maybe $25. The gauge will not actually tell you what mileage you're getting, but it will have a green, yellow, and a red zone. Keep the needle in the green as much as you can to optimize fuel efficiency. The gauge is easy to install. All you have to do is run a vacume hose from your intake manifold to the gauge. If you want to, you can even hook up the supplied light so that you can read the gauge at night. I am usually too lazy to perform this step :P
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Re: fuel efficient driving uphill?

Unread postby SteinarN » Sun 23 Sep 2007, 19:00:39

xrotaryguy wrote:An easy way to monitor your fuel economy is to install a vacuum gauge. A cheap vacuum gauge will only set you back about $15... maybe $25. The gauge will not actually tell you what mileage you're getting, but it will have a green, yellow, and a red zone. Keep the needle in the green as much as you can to optimize fuel efficiency.


This is not correct.
Both diesels and petrol engines have their lovest specific fuel consumtion at around the rpm where the highest torque is AND at full throttle. In order to acheive the best mileage you have to try to drive at a speed where your drag and rolling resistance is lowest possible, and at the same time the specific fuelconsumtion is lowest possible.

The drag is aproximately proportional with the square of your speed. Ie if you double the speed from lets say 40 to 80 mile/h then the drag vill be 2x2 = 4 time as high. The necessary hp to overcom the drag vill be 8 times as high as you are traveling twice as fast. Driving from point A to B at twice the speed requires 4 times the energy to overcom the drag (8 time as much power in half the time).

An increase in speed from 50 mile/h to 75 mile/h increase the drag by 125% (1,5x1,5=2,25). Even a modest increase from lets say 50 mile/h to 60 mile/h result in a 44% increase in drag (1,2x1,2=1,44)

Increasing the speed DRAMATICALLY increases the required energy to overcome the drag!

The rolling resistance of the tires is not very dependant on the speed. Driving from point A to B requires aproximately the same energy to overcome the rolling resistance regardless of the speed.

At very low speeds, lets say below 25 mile/h, the drag is very low and lower than the rolling resistance of the tires. Thus increasing the speed by 40%, lets say from 20 mile/h to 28 mile/h only slightly increases the required energy to propell the car from point A to B.

As the speed increases, the drag eventually become much higher than the rolling resistance of the tires. Thus an increase in speed when the speed already is high requires a much higher percentage increase in energy to propell the car from point A to B. This is because the drag increases proportionally to the square of the speed as mentioned above.

All this means that the speed shall be as low as possible in order to minimize the required energy necessary to propell the car from point A to B. But an increase in speed to a modest level, lets say 40 mile/h only requires slightly more energy for the same distance. An increase in speed to a higher level, lets say 60 mile/h, requires a considerable increase in energy for the same distance. Further, even relatively small increases in speed requires even larger increases in energy for the same distance.

Over to the engine.

First an explanation on specific fuel consumtion.

Specific fuel consumtion is a measurement on how much fuel the engine consume to produce a certain amount of energy, ie 1 kWh or 1 hph.
Modern large two-stroke ship diesels can have a specific fuel consumtion as low as 155 gram/kWh, 115 gram/hph. Diesels in large trucks can have a specific fuel consumtion of 180 gram/kWh, 133 gram/hph. Light modern diesels in cars have slightly higher spesific fuelconsumtion, as low as 200 gram/kWh, 150 gram/hph.

Petrol engines have considerably higher spesific fuelconsumtion not much lover than 300 gram/kWh, 220 gram/hph.

All this data is valid at rpm coresponding roughly to max torque AND at full throttle. The specific fuelconsumtion increases only slightly at different rpm, but increases significantly at reduced throttle.

There is mainly two variables determining the specific fuelconsimtion to an ICE. Namely the RPM and the load (full throttle or 1/4 throttle for instance). As stated abov the single most important variable is the throttle or the actual load of the engine at any given rpm.

When we combine all this informaton together we see that we wish to drive at a modest speed in order to minimize the required energy necessary to propell the car from point A to B, and at the same time load the engine heavily (full throttle) in order to acheive minimum specific fuelconsumtion. Due to the fact that practically every american (and european) automobile is heavily overmotoriced, we quickly would find ourselves without driver licence and awarded with a severe fine or penalty if we followed this aproach to the end.

If the engine was very small, lets say 20 hp, and we only acheived a modest speed at lets say 50 mile/h at a medium rpm and full throttle, that would have brought us the highest possible mpg.

In order to come as close as possible to this mode of operation with ours overmotoriced car we have to choose the highest gear to get the lowest possible rpm vhere we can load the engine as much as possible without the speed be to high.

In an upphill we shall continue in top gear as long as the engine runs smoth, and apply more throttle to maintain speed. If we had a vacuum gauge we would maybe see the needle entering the red zone. That would be very fine, the engine running at high load and consequently at minimum specific fuelconsumtion. If we in stead of continue in top gear selected a lower gear with higher rpm, we had to reduce the throttle compared to top gear to maintain desired speed, We would se the wacuum gauge indicating higher vacuum (maybe yellow instead of red). In this case the fuel consumtion INCREACES due to the reduced load on the engine and the engine running at conditions where the specific fuel consumtion is higher and at the same time has to output the same hp to maintain the desired speed.

I will write more tomorrow on this subject if i can find spare time .
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Re: fuel efficient driving uphill?

Unread postby SolarDave » Sun 09 Dec 2007, 04:39:03

SteinarN wrote:[
In order to come as close as possible to this mode of operation with ours overmotoriced car we have to choose the highest gear to get the lowest possible rpm vhere we can load the engine as much as possible without the speed be to high.


You can also make your motor smaller if you are brave.

For years I drove a flat 50 miles each way to work on a road with a 45 MPH limit in a Datsun 510 with a 1.6L (96 Ci) 4 Cyl Overhead Cam engine.

After taking out the passenger and rear seats (yes! People do this!) and replacing the full-size spare with a "space-saver" spare (yes!) and adding a front air dam, and lowering the car about two inches, and inflating the tires to 40 PSI, I was getting around 35 MPG.

Then, I decided to get radical.

I took out the intake cam follower on the number 4 cylinder, converting the 4 Cyl to 3+1 Air Spring (for half the 4 stroke cycle, and an air pump for the other half).

Bingo. 40 MPG!

As SteinarN says - our motors are too big. If they were smaller, and run at wider throttle openings (in other words, loaded more heavily) for the exact same speed and vehicle load, efficiency would go up. It worked for me!

I do >not< recommend this to anyone. I paid $150 for that car and I was fearless!

After changing jobs, and switching to a shorter, more power-demanding commute, I put the cam follower back and I had 4 Cyls again. It did not seem to hurt the car in any way. I drove it for 10 more years....
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