[k_semler]

I agree with the other posters, but I must add that you must read "The Decline and Fall of Pax Americana", it is very relevant to this topic of hoarding.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Personally, I think hoarders are the scum of the earth.
If a hard energy crunch hits, we'll all have to move to a wartime footing, and the sacrifices will have to be shared. We will all have to work together in the national interest, and hoarders will need to be socially and criminally sanctioned.
.

Hey Jato! what did I tell you?

[PenultimateManStanding]

If anything, you are three times the scoundrel I am as you have reproduced and thus contributed to the overpopulation and resource shortage problem.
Matt

Someone said if you wish to seem wise don't say anything. Having children is the best and wisest choice any human ever made.

[Malthus]

Hell I must be the hoarder of all horders. I have in my basement 1700 ounces of gold in bars + 100 krugerrand 1 ounce/coins, 25000 ounces of silver and I am expecting delivery 500 ounces of palladium later this month and have 225 hectares mainly forest. I dont care for other people if they are irresponsible and ignorant they must suffer the consequences dont forget that they enjoyed the consumption frenzy. I am not sharing my property and wealth with anybody. If they are starving to death its not my problem feeding and helping hungry people today means that you would have to feed more hungry people tomorrow. I could only help people that can give me something of value in return like working as serfs for food. Should I not profit from the ignorance of others? Does this make me scum. I dont know I usually profit from the losses of others.

[Jack]

Someone said if you wish to seem wise don't say anything. Having children is the best and wisest choice any human ever made.

There appears to be a typo in your statement. Surely you meant to say: NOT having children is the best and wisest choice any human ever made.

[Jack]

We both obtain money to buy food. Are we not both equally scoundrels?

If anything, you are three times the scoundrel I am as you have reproduced and thus contributed to the overpopulation and resource shortage problem.

First, my compliments on your book. It's great!

And second, my compliments on your logic. One of the things I like about attorneys is that they think like attorneys, and apply logic to issues. That's rare, these days.

[JohnDenver]

I could only help people that can give me something of value in return like working as serfs for food.

How about women? Will they have to be your sex slaves?

[DomusAlbion]

DomusAlbion,

According to your own logic, it would make you a scoundrel. Your words from the "Peak Oil Groupie Gear" thread:

"No doubt, that's what business is all about, but it all makes me doubt Matt's sincerity. I suppose there is no situation that comes along where some scoundrel will not make a profit from it."

If charging money for my book (or anything else I sell) so I can buy food, take permaculture classes, etc. . . makes me a scoundrel, how can you consider yourself prudent when you charge money for whatever it is you do for a living so you can buy food?

[... snip]

Who's the real scoundrel?
Matt

Dear Matt,

I never said I was NOT a scoundrel. I'm just a prudent one that sees a possible future, plans for it and optimizes my current income to finance those plans.

As to my children, how about if we leave them out of the discussion. The youngest is 16 so all 4 were born many years ago, before there was much knowledge of PO and the world was a better place.

I see that you seem a bit sensitive and don't take well to a little public ribbing. I just find it odd that you have your law degree and are not practicing law and making a ton of money. That seems to me to be the prudent and wise thing to do. In a good law practice you could be making a 6 figure salary now and buying your retreat/sanctuary for the future. Instead you're selling t shirts?
I guess I just don't get it.

No hard feelings,
Dom

[Tyler_JC]

Hell I must be the hoarder of all horders. I have in my basement 1700 ounces of gold in bars + 100 krugerrand 1 ounce/coins, 25000 ounces of silver and I am expecting delivery 500 ounces of palladium later this month and have 225 hectares mainly forest.

Add that up and you are a member of the "super rich." Half the people on this board want to steal everything you have and give it to the poor. They want to spread the misery around.

God bless you! If I were in your position, I'd be doing the same thing. One note on the palladium, I don't think most people understand how valuable that stuff is. You might not be able to sell it Post Peak. Gold and silver have value. Everyone knows that. But I don't think people will trade a loaf of bread for palladium.

[born2respawn]

I think you're mad, mate. People should be encouraged to stash stuff away now, not accused of being hoarders and pilloried. Think about it: Every ration pack I squirrel away, every tin of food I store is one less meal that the Gov't has to provide me when it all falls down. It's taking the burden off of the system that'll be providing for you if it sees fit.

If you want to rely on the Gov't then go for it, but you seem to be keeping rather odd company.

[JohnDenver]

Think about it: Every ration pack I squirrel away, every tin of food I store is one less meal that the Gov't has to provide me when it all falls down. It's taking the burden off of the system that'll be providing for you if it sees fit.

If you want to rely on the Gov't then go for it, but you seem to be keeping rather odd company.

Ration packs and tins of food? Sure, you choke those down while they last friend, because one thing we both know is that you're going to run out. And when you do finally wander down to the soup line, we'll remind you that you're a dirty hoarder who doesn't rely on or contribute to the community. Why should we share our food with you? You didn't share your food with us.

[JohnDenver]

Add that up and you are a member of the "super rich."
God bless you!

Hey Tyler, maybe if you play your cards right, Malthus will let you be one of one of his "serfs". Maybe you should send him a PM.

[gg3]

Y'all are fighting over entirely different definitions and most of you don't even know it:


1) First key distinction: TIME.

a: Accumulating resources over a LENGTHY period of time BEFORE the crisis occurs.

b: Accumulating resources over a SHORT period of time WHEN the crisis or market scarcity occurs.


2) Second key distinction: QUANTITY.

a: Quantity sufficient for oneself and one's household to sustain during an anticipated crisis, plus some surplus for trade within a "level playing field" market.

b: Quantity so far beyond (2a above) that much of it will likely go to waste.

c: Quantity that is calculated to enable one to impose one's will upon others arbitrarily, via control of resources they need.


The English language is ill-equipped to encapsulate these distinctions into a few simple words or phrases. However, we might try:

"Stockpiling" has the shade of meaning of (1a above). "Hoarding" has the shade of meaning of (1b above).

(2a) might be described as "prudent" behavior. (2b) might be described as "profligate" behavior." (2c) might be described as "imperious" behavior.

In that case:

Hoarding is wrong because it imposes sudden shock loads on the market distribution system during times when it is already weakened by shortage. In doing so it breaks the system: makes the system useless to other participants. Markets work when throughput is predictable: buyers and sellers can plan, and supply can be adjusted to anticipated demand. Or alternately, in cases of shortage, price adjustments can occur in a predictable manner; or some kind of nonmarket allocation (rationing) can be conducted fairly.

Stockpiling as such is not morally culpable precisely because it does not impose a shock load on the market system. Stockpiling over time produces a slight increase in demand, which is met with either an increase in supply or a price adjustment; the feedback systems have time to operate.

Clearly, prudence is laudable because it acts as a stabilizing influence on the distribution of resources, and in general reduces load on systems that are in crisis. Profligacy and imperiousness are culpable; the former because it is purely entropic and the latter because it is parasitic.

[k_semler]

@gg3

I would say that is a very good explination, and quite honestly along the lines of the way I am thinking. Waiting until the last second to biuld up your invintory not only reduces your capabilities to biuld suffecient quantites of product nessecary to survive, but it also detracts from the ability of others, (the unprepared sheeple), as well as contributing to the panic. Examples of this panic buying have been rampent throughout history, from the hurricane "preperations", to war preperations, to volcanic eruptions. We are all familiar how fast the store shelves empty, and how few people actually get the supplies that they need. Likewise, persons who choose to biuld up thier invintory over a period of time have very little effect on the end panic situation, as they have generally completed thier preperations when supplies are in sufficient enough quantities to not have any substancial impact on the supply v. demand curve. For an example, the only thing I bought in preperation for Y2K out of the norm was 10 extra gallons of gasoline. As it turned out, I WAY over prepared for that, as the only odd thing about the rollover was the gas pump said 01/15/19100, (versus 01/15/2000), as the date on the reciept. I thought it was funnier than hell.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Someone said if you wish to seem wise don't say anything. Having children is the best and wisest choice any human ever made.

There appears to be a typo in your statement. Surely you meant to say: NOT having children is the best and wisest choice any human ever made.

Funny Jack. Actually now that I know about the hard times ahead I guess I'd have to agree. Raising kids has been the finest thing in my life, though.

[PenultimateManStanding]

In a good law practice you could be making a 6 figure salary now and buying your retreat/sanctuary for the future. Instead you're selling t shirts?
I guess I just don't get it.

Damn that's cold, Dom. Remind me not to get on your bad side!

[Malthus]

Add that up and you are a member of the "super rich." Half the people on this board want to steal everything you have and give it to the
poor. They want to spread the misery around.

God bless you! If I were in your position, I'd be doing the same thing. One note on the palladium, I don't think most people understand how valuable that stuff is. You might not be able to sell it Post Peak. Gold and silver have value. Everyone knows that. But I don't think people will trade a loaf of bread for palladium.

Well it depends on what you mean by rich if you think of super luxiruous show-off life style no. For instance I may be hording gold and silver but I ve been doing so for the last 9 years I have in the business. I am long
on 2500 ounces in futures contracts on COMEX that I keep rolling over and can take a delivery at anytime. One must always allocate 10% of his annual income to precious metals or undervalued real estate.As a commodity speculator unlike many coolegues I dont have a very high standard of living in fact my car 11 years old my TV is 9-10 years old ,refrigerator 35 years, furniture 50-90 years old, house is 150 years old although I change PCs every year. There a few tips that I can give you never buy anything on credit, never borrow money except for crediting a large spread carry trade. Dont consume over your means.
Also I am oposed to all sorts of "welfare for the poor,help save the hungry masses,free the masses,high standards of living for everybody, unversal healthcare social security" for this only incites the poor to "be fruitful and multiply" I hope you and I agree on that point.

I think you're mad, mate. People should be encouraged to stash stuff away now, not accused of being hoarders and pilloried. Think about it: Every ration pack I squirrel away, every tin of food I store is one less meal that the Gov't has to provide me when it all falls down. It's taking the burden off of the system that'll be providing for you if it sees fit.

If you want to rely on the Gov't then go for it, but you seem to be keeping rather odd company.

Good points. However its always preferable to hoard more than you can consume so as to sell it later to the hungry people for their gold/silver/land that you should then be exchanging for gas and food with truck drivers and farmers and sell it back again to the masses relieving them from the burden of their precious metals. You can make lots of money infact in devastation and crisis there is more oportunity than there would normally be. Think of the tsunami i bet that when most people saw what happened on TV they would feel pity and compassion for the victims, even want to help them. I ,being devoided of such "noble' emotions, couldnt stop wishing I was there on the island of Phuket right now searching the dead for jewelry and cash or selling red cross blankets and food rations.
Black markets always arise when goverments try to impose price caps or rationing systems they were/are reality even in super-police states like communist or fascist regimes (USSR,NK,China). There was even a thriving black market for rubber and gas in the US during WWII
Becoming a dealer in black markets insures that you will come ahead in the end. I sujest you study the history of great inflations in Germany or Argentina

How about women? Will they have to be your sex slaves?

You make me laugh JD you seem to believe in moral or good and evil as absolute notions I dont. I live in a world of total moral relativism. I cannot feel pity for carbon machines like us that are no different in their purpose from bacteria or insects. I havent thought about it I guess I ll leave it to my subconsciousness to compare the biochemcal pleasure that would result with the biochemical pain.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Compare this problem with Y2K. I was extensively prepared for that. Having researched it and not being able to convince myself it was nothing to worry about I got ready. The assumption there was that if the world's information/communications infrastructure collapses suddenly that everything would fall apart quickly. For that scenario it made sense to be prepared to stay indoors for months (going outside briefly in the predawn hours to take care of a few neccessary things.) Outside would be deadly - flies everywhere all carrying diseases. I could have stayed inside for a year with what I had hoarded (and with plenty of duct tape to keep out the flies). I had no expectation of any authorities coming around to confiscate supplies because I assumed all social structures would be erased. Peak Oil is entirely different in that there is not likely to be a collapse of social authority. The situation will just get deeper and darker all the time with the government still intact to attempt to control things. Hoarding will be a crime to whoever or whateveer constitutes the 'social authority.' I had planned to start farming in 2001. When are you folks who want to ride this out going to start farming?

[gg3]

Here's an exercise I posted in another topic, in case anyone missed it. Call it "abstract hoarding made visible."

Count out relative net financial worth in terms of grains of rice. $100k per grain of rice.

You're skilled and successful, you have $100k equity in your house and maybe the same in your investments and retirement accounts. Put two grains of rice on the table.

Your rich neighbor who is your current picture of what "rich" means: maybe his house is worth a couple million of which he has a million in equity, and maybe another million in investments and retirement accounts. That's two million, so count out twenty grains of rice in his pile.

Next, the real aristocracy. Let's say the threshold for that is individual net worth of a billion. Count out ten thousand grains of rice to put in that person's pile. Keep track of how long it takes you to count out those ten thousand grains of rice.

Meanwhile, the guy who does household repairs and yard maintenance in your neighborhood gets a fifth of a grain of rice, but if you don't want to try cutting up grains of rice, a few grains of salt will do.

And for most of the world's population, one or two specks of wheat flour.

If you want to put it on a graph, your net worth is a line two inches tall. Your "rich" neighbor is a line that's twenty inches tall. The member of the new aristocracy is a line that's a little over 833 feet tall.

You and your millionaire neighbor have more in common with the guy who mows your lawn, than either of you do with the new aristocrat. The aristocracy's ceaseless propaganda has most of the modestly-successful identifying with (and looking out for the interests of) the aristocrats: everyone wants to be "rich" and thinks "rich" means the guy with the big house and a couple million net worth. But it ain't so. He's a small fry too.

What happens when peak hits, growth grinds to a halt, and the tide ceases to rise and lift the boats of anyone industrious enough to row?

Hoarding? Who's really hoarding?

[Golgo13]

hoarders are just setting them selfs up to be target number one when the shtf. i hope you stocked up on enough ammo to kill your neighborhood, your gonna need it.

Unless you're dumb enough to put a big neon sign on top of your house that says "Eat at Joes", or you live in an omnicient community, how is anyone else ever going to know?