[k_semler]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... manifesto/
[quote=Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2]The Communists are further reproached with desiring to abolish countries and nationality.

...

The communist revolution is the most radical rupture with traditional relations; no wonder that its development involved the most radical rupture with traditional ideas.

...

Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.
[/quote]


[quote=Communist Manifesto, Chapter 4]In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

...

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Workers of all countries, unite![/quote]

Even idealogical communism admits that the only way a Communist revolution is to occur is via violent overthrow of the existing government. The very document of the Communist Manifesto as written by Karl Marx is seditious not only to the United States, but to every non-communist country on earth. And also communisms supposed goal is equality for all in a system ruled by the Bourgeois, yet I do not agree with the methods stated in the Communist manifesto in order to obtain that idealistic communist society. I also do not support many of their fundamental beliefs that I listed above. I only support points 8, 9, and 10.

[nigel]

Russian communism was never Marxism. Lenin distorted Marxism - which required waiting for natural and inevitable Hegellian conflicts to play out - thesis/antithesis//synthesis. See the Bolshevik / Menshevik debates in 1905 etc. Lenin put the vanguard in front of the van. He said why wait for the workers' consciousness to develop? Let's grab power now and control the system while the consciousness of the workers develops under our control. In other words, he mothballed Marxism. All the Russian intellectuals realised the con involved in this, the total distortion of Marxist thought - that's why it was called Marxism-Leninism. ie NOT Marxism. By 'freezing' the capital/labour interaction he effectively stopped any possibility of 'true' Marxism developing. I say 'true' because even Marx did not believe in blue prints and many of his ideas were self-contradictory.

The irony is (given the Intro to the Communist Manifesto) that Marxism is a nothing more than a religion.

[goldfishbowl42]

The 50's and 60's saw lots of Idealogical Communists forming groups of their own in countries arround the world, but the West's Paranoia lead us to fear this and try to put them down by military force.

It was a Prime example of the West suppressing the freedom of the people just like the evil it claimed to protect us from!!!

The West was frightened of letting it all play out as just another political movement.

Marx always saw the way to communism as a revolution but it could be done peacefully.

If you had progressively socialist governments that slowly nationalised more and more industries you could end up with a communist country without the violent revolution.

Over time, more and more people in your countyr would be employed by the state.



The way Lenin, benevolent dictator though he was, and the other bolsheviks in Russia took it upon themselves as the inteligensia to have a revolution for the proletariat, probably did more harm than good for the view of communism around the world then and now.

It scared the shit out of Rich people all over the world, instead of allowing communism to sneak up on them from many different places at once, they saw the warning of what could happen.



Another thing Marx Never forsaw was the way globalisation has affected us. Because of globalisation we now have far better living standards in the western world because we exploit poor people in other countries rather than exploiting the Consumers here as directly.
The Western Public don't realise that their job is to consume so they will never have a strike or revolution where they all refuse to go shopping !!!


A National shopping strike would be just as bad for western world economies as a national workers strike. But no-one realises that. And Marx in his time could not have seen it playing out like that because in his time the consumers were the Rich people in each country. Not the Rich People in the Western world.

[nigel]

Lenin - benevolent?

Isn't the consumer the worker?

[goldfishbowl42]

The consumer is the worker who thinks he's not.

Our working class are all under the impression that they are middle class so have nothing in common with all the other deluded workers.

Without a class consciousness you cannot have a class revolution.

[nigel]

That's good to know. I don't want a 'class revolution', sounds a bit simplistic, unimaginative, regimented and contrived to me. Would you be a class prefect, perhaps? There again, perhaps respect for each others' right to their own lifestyle IS what mutual class consciousness is?

[goldfishbowl42]

We don't all have to be the same, we can respect people making different choices in their lifestyle.

What I meant by class consciousness is a realisation that if you're not super rich, you're probably being exploited by them.

We have too much of the silly attitude that, My family is so much better than that family down the road because we can afford a car for our daughter but they have to share their car...

Crap, all crap.

I don't know about the US but in Britain, only 7% the population pay the top tax bracket of 40% tax.

That means only 7% of the country is on a wage above just £35,000 (about $60,000) a year.

So instead of us coherently wanting to spread the wealth and have a tax on the Super Rich, we are all too busy thinking, I earn 3,000 more than him a year, he's such a commoner !!! Or, I've got a widescreen TV and they haven't, they slum it so much !!!!



In this materialistic world, the super rich businessmen have got all the rest of us running round looking over our shoulders competeing with each other, rather than seeing the world as it really is.



Thats what I meant by the Consumers are the workers who think they are not, and that is why we need a class conciousness.

Instead of all these stupid working class people voting for policies that benefit the rich because they mistakenly think they are the ones that are well off, we could perhaps elect some meaningfull and truely reprasentaticve governments.

Governments could represent where we really are rather than where we deludedly think we will be, if only we had a class consciousness.

[nigel]

Instead of all these stupid working class people voting for policies that benefit the rich because they mistakenly think they are the ones that are well off, we could perhaps elect some meaningfull and truely reprasentaticve governments.

A perfect example of Marxist-Leninist thought.

[k_semler]

In this modern corporatist, consumerist world, humans are no more than a corporate tool. If a person is not assisting a corporation, then that person is terminated from employment, much as a tool is thrown away that no longer provides a value to the craftsman. Hammers are the tool of choice of a carpenter, while personnel is the tool of choice of the corporations. A carpenter does not keep a hammer that no longer functions to his desires, and nor does a corporation. If a carpenter is unable to find work, he must eliminate some tools to provide himself with money to purchase food to ensure his survival. If a corporation is unable to meet budget, massive terminations, (layoffs), occur to meet the set budget. Humans have become just another consumable good in this modern corporatist world of today.

Having just lost my job with the local college, I too have become a corporate tool. The only place in town that was hiring was Wal*Mart, and I am now an overnight stocker there. I would rather work for a small privately owned store, but the "Always Low Prices" of Wal*Mart have driven the hiring of local merchants to a virtual stand still. Right-To-Work my gludeous maximus, more like "Right-To-Be-Fired". If Wal*Mart wouldn't outsource their purchases, and only purchase in the US, then there would actually be competition. I hate corporatism. It seems that corporations now own America, and the consumer class is now just renting the land. I honestly hope for a collapse of the corporatist state, and re-institution of the former capitalistic economy that once was America. I do not care if Peak Oil brings on the collapse, or it is another factor such as a massive amount of foreclosures and bankruptcies, but I just want it to end. Corporatism sucks, Communism sucks, I wan my capitalistic society back. We need to take back America from the multi-billion

[goldfishbowl42]

Instead of all these stupid working class people voting for policies that benefit the rich because they mistakenly think they are the ones that are well off, we could perhaps elect some meaningfull and truely reprasentaticve governments.

A perfect example of Marxist-Leninist thought.

OK, I see the Irony in My rantings there :D

[goldfishbowl42]

I honestly hope for a collapse of the corporatist state, and re-institution of the former capitalistic economy that once was America.

The Trouble is that any capitalist system will eventaully evolve it a Global Corporate system.

Wishing to keep America a simple capitalist system like it was is kind of like wanting to allways be young.


If your wish to be young tomorrow was granted, you would still get old again,

Why not wish to be a creature that ages differently.

[k_semler]

But how would it progress from a corporatist state to a sustainable economy since the corporations control the government and media? The only way I see it possible is for an "involuntary reduction in staffing", (global crash of the modern consumer driven economic system), of the modern corporatist society. Is there any feasible alternative to a drastic reduction on the payroll budget? It seems that voluntary power-down is not going to happen. It appears that we are on an overshoot and collapse scenario, and that theory is coming closer to fact every day. How do we grasp control of our national economy back from the devil in blue offering a $150.00 product for $29.95 without a complete collapse?

[goldfishbowl42]

Oh, I was speaking of the Capitalist system etc. without bearing in mind PO.


For a power down we need a crash, we don't have the time now to change volunarily to a renewable infrastructure.

And I think after the crash and it all settles again I think Humans will recover with a primitive localised capitalist system again.

I don't think Human Nature is ready for a system like communism unfortuantely, and that is why it has ultimately failed in the past.

[k_semler]

And I think after the crash and it all settles again I think Humans will recover with a primitive localized capitalist system again.

If by primitive, you mean a market where entrepreneurs can once compete freely in a open and fair market with locally produced goods, and without infringement on their establishment by corporate giants; then I completely support the primitive capitalist economy that would eventually re-establish itself after the collapse of this corporatist empire. If you meant a system of barter and trade, I would also support that as well.

Taking it down beyond the aspect of unsupported, government issued currency, we already have a rough system of barter and trade. I work for money, and I can use that money that I earn through the trade of my labor to purchase goods and services. Example: I get paid at my job $8.35 per hour, and it costs $45.00 to fill my car full of gasoline. At this rate of pay, I exchange 5 hours, 23 minutes, 21.1976047904191616766467065848 seconds for one tank of gasoline. The modern capitalistic system using government issued currency is just an evolved form of barter and trade which enables me to exchange my labor for products and services from establishments that I have not labored for.

[Chicagoan]

http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RAM/ ... -06-20.ram

[k_semler]

Is there a 33.6kbps friendly version available? I am having serious buffering issues.

[Chicagoan]

http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/INTERV ... -06-20.php

You can click on the separate Q & A. I hope that helps.

There is no transcript for this interview yet, otherwise I would have posted it.

[Specop_007]

When he said capitalism would fail becasue of greed and lack of conservation.

Well, we never had pure capitalism anyway. Case in point the guy that buys a Hummer and writes it off as a business expense farm vehicle when he lives in the city. The govt. can't help you there if you don't make enough to where you pay 100 grand in taxes which is like over 90% of the population.

Minor clarification. ANY vehicle of a certain weight and above can be wrote off IF its proven to be used as a business vehicle. That law has been in effect for quite some time.