[evgeny]

Without cutting through the fog of war it's impossible to understand what's really going on in Libya.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MC25Ak01.html

[evilgenius]

It is an interesting notion that Abdullah's(king of KSA) personal blood feud with Muammar(tyrant of Libya) is the linch pin reason why the no-fly zone got the go ahead. There is so much at stake when it comes to democracy in the Arab world. Not least concerning are the implications should the export land model really begin to take off there. Imagine a world where the paltry amount of resources that the peoples of the region now use was forced to go up because of pent up demand being exercised and rights concerning man as capitalist and man as fully involved social being coming into their own. That can't happen at the same time as the rest of the world enjoys the extravagant lifestyles they have gotten used to.

[mos6507]

Russia has done everything in its power to shield Iran and enable its nuclear program. It's no saint when it comes to putting its own economic interests above what's right.

[Keith_McClary]

Russia has done everything in its power to shield Iran and enable its nuclear program. It's no saint when it comes to putting its own economic interests above what's right.

But if we substitute:

Russia ===> USA
Iran ===> India/Israel

you would call it anti-US tin-hattery.

It's OK if you do it because you're the Good Guys, but if they do it, it proves they're Bad Guys. Your simple black and white worldview must be very comforting for you.

[evgeny]

Russia has done everything in its power to shield Iran and enable its nuclear program. It's no saint when it comes to putting its own economic interests above what's right.

To produce nuclear power, entitled to any country.
Nuclear program only reason, in fact, Iran is gaining great influence in the Arab world and this fact doesn't like the U.S. and Saudi Arabia.
If it is not stopped now, Iran will become a leading force in the Arab world.
That's what the U.S. and Saudi Arabia do not want, but Russia doesn't have any problem with Iran.

[americandream]

It is an interesting notion that Abdullah's(king of KSA) personal blood feud with Muammar(tyrant of Libya) is the linch pin reason why the no-fly zone got the go ahead. There is so much at stake when it comes to democracy in the Arab world. Not least concerning are the implications should the export land model really begin to take off there. Imagine a world where the paltry amount of resources that the peoples of the region now use was forced to go up because of pent up demand being exercised and rights concerning man as capitalist and man as fully involved social being coming into their own. That can't happen at the same time as the rest of the world enjoys the extravagant lifestyles they have gotten used to.

It's interesting how you distinguish between Abdullah as king and Ghadaffi as tyrant, both characterisations which are pushed by (largely private owned) Western media by the way. However, a cursory glance through Google will inform you as follows:

1 Saudi Arabia operates some of the most corrupt systems of government in the world where women are neither seen nor heard in public, regional Arab wealth ( as in, for example, the sort of wealth paradigm we come to expect in being part of the Western world) is leaking, nay gushing out to the Western world in contrast to common Arabs who by and large live in dire poverty (apart from Saudis who are bribed into docility). Saudi Arabia is the source of the Wahhabist extremism that drives much of terrorist fundamentalism, targetting as that does, Israel and the West, yet behind the scenes, is extensively engaged in the economy of the West.

2 Libya runs a fairly even economy with the emphasis on resource nationalism. Admittedly Ghadaffi is something of a flamboyant numbskull, is ideologically rather suspect in his Islamic interpretation of scientific socialism, yet where it matters, in terms of the use of his national resource as well as his ties with fundamentalist Islam, is positively lamblike compared to the Saudis who are the ultimate paradox.

And yet we bewail Ghadaffi's tyranny yet blithely do business with the Saudis. And a common factor in all of this is the West's lifeblood, oil.

[mos6507]

Russia ===> USA
Iran ===> India/Israel

India (and Israel) don't saber rattling the way Iran is. In fact India showed a hell of a lot of restraint over the Mumbai bombings.

[mos6507]

And yet we bewail Ghadaffi's tyranny yet blithely do business with the Saudis. And a common factor in all of this is the West's lifeblood, oil.

Why not mention China while you're at it?



How many people were willing to boycott China over Tiananmen square?

It's just business, man. And everybody's complicit.

[Plantagenet]

And yet we bewail Ghadaffi's tyranny yet blithely do business with the Saudis. And a common factor in all of this is the West's lifeblood, oil.

Why not mention China while you're at it?

Probably because we don't import any oil from China, so its irrelevant to this discussion about what the west is willing to do to get oil.

[mos6507]

Probably because we don't import any oil from China, so its irrelevant to this discussion about what the west is willing to do to get oil.

Who cares if you're talking about oil or cheap goods? The concept is the same. We reward countries with bad human rights records if it's in our selfish interest to do so. Pretty much the entire globe works that way, by and large, and always has. And people like you who decry it, if push comes to shove, would not practice what you preach once you faced the alternatives of boycotting most of the rest of the world for not having utopian governments. So drop the holier than thou schtick.

[americandream]

And yet we bewail Ghadaffi's tyranny yet blithely do business with the Saudis. And a common factor in all of this is the West's lifeblood, oil.

Why not mention China while you're at it?



How many people were willing to boycott China over Tiananmen square?

It's just business, man. And everybody's complicit.

I would class China in the same boat as the Saudis. Engaged in Quixotic battles with the West yet extensively engaged in investing in the West.

What we have is a nasty array of interlined interests. The common gtheme of course is the preservation of BAU at all cost and the surgical removal of those elements who wil not conform such as oil nationalists or those who are still viewed with suspicion, such as the Russians.

Islam, in my opinion, keeps the masses distracted fighting the Israelis and Indians, both on the periphery of these interests but significant in that they are a sort of back up contingency in the event of, for example, the Saudis or Pakistanis losing the plot and going rogue.

Of course, in the midst of all of this, it's the common man or woman on the ground who pay the ultimate price as they are taxed, indebted, shopped and war deployed to oblivion.

[evgeny]

And yet we bewail Ghadaffi's tyranny yet blithely do business with the Saudis. And a common factor in all of this is the West's lifeblood, oil.

Why not mention China while you're at it?



How many people were willing to boycott China over Tiananmen square?

It's just business, man. And everybody's complicit.

China holds the U.S. balls.
China has 2 trillion of U.S. debt, if China issued this debt to the market, the U.S. will be in the financial abyss.

[careinke]

1 Saudi Arabia operates some of the most corrupt systems of government in the world where women are neither seen nor heard in public, regional Arab wealth ( as in, for example, the sort of wealth paradigm we come to expect in being part of the Western world) is leaking, nay gushing out to the Western world in contrast to common Arabs who by and large live in dire poverty (apart from Saudis who are bribed into docility). Saudi Arabia is the source of the Wahhabist extremism that drives much of terrorist fundamentalism, targetting as that does, Israel and the West, yet behind the scenes, is extensively engaged in the economy of the West.

WOW!!! AD and I actually agree on something!!!

[americandream]

And yet we bewail Ghadaffi's tyranny yet blithely do business with the Saudis. And a common factor in all of this is the West's lifeblood, oil.

Why not mention China while you're at it?



How many people were willing to boycott China over Tiananmen square?

It's just business, man. And everybody's complicit.

China holds the U.S. balls.
China has 2 trillion of U.S. debt, if China issued this debt to the market, the U.S. will be in the financial abyss.

I'm not sure that thats quite the case. Lets not forget that it was Nixon who lured agrarian and cash poor China away from the (then fragile Marxist order) with a seat on the Security Council as well as the promise of vast Western investment. Mao of course could not be seen to renege on his communist credentials and delegated that task to Deng. In the process, the floodgates of Wester financing were thrown open into China transforming it into a Western managed manufacturing powerhouse, generating vast profits for Western fund pools in the process.

When one observes the antics of capitalism in places such as Libya, what is remarkable are the abstentions of China, over and over, again and again...they withdraw into the sidelines and let the West secure these resources, subsequently moving in and cornering the spoils, all the while being cheerled by Wall Street media.

China, Russia.....no one can or will arrest the march of capital. Of course, having been defeated in battle, there are still dissenting voices in Russia which is viewed with suspicion, but by and large capital stands unchallenged.

Islam has willingly set it's commons up for demonisation whilst it lifebloods capital with oil and investment bonanza. This of course is essential in ensuring that capital secures it massive energy premium from the hugely discounted oil price. An Arab commoner who was instead focussed on gaining value from his once in a lifetime bonanaza rather than fighting an inconsequential Israel (when one considers what the Arab daily loses rather than the value of the bitterly contested little sliver of desert that is Palestine and which he could resolve from a position of wealth strength were he to jettison religious distraction and attend instead to his social economy's leaking value), we can detect a definite trend in confusion and distraction as tools of BAU.

[americandream]

Incidentally, I don't believe that there is a vast conspiracy of horrible capitalists sitting in some vast tomb somewhere under the Arctic plotting and scheming. These things unfold organically and with a natural logic that must flow from ties of mutual benefit.

It was only a matter of time before moves were made to consolidate oil in a more secure grip. In fact, I would consider the next step in all of this to be the transformation of the Arab deserts to renewables usage for Europe, the gradual locking in of remaining oil reserves till replacements are found and the bourgeoification of ME politics as the next step in Arab political liberalisation sees the Saudi order making way for reforms. I expect to see some sort of closer alliance between the Mediterranean oil/solar basin and the EU with Turkey as a bridge and special member status for Israel and Lebanon. A sort of locking in of what will remain a priceless energy region.