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A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

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A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby Carlhole » Thu 02 Nov 2006, 18:10:58

Bush on Rush Limbaugh Show wrote:"I am deeply concerned about a country, the United States, leaving the Middle East. I am worried that rival forms of extremists will battle for power, obviously creating incredible damage if they do so; that they will topple modern governments, that they will be in a position to use oil as a tool to blackmail the West. People say, 'What do you mean by that?' I say, 'If they control oil resources, then they pull oil off the market in order to run the price up, and they will do so unless we abandon Israel, for example, or unless we abandon allies. You couple that with a country that doesn't like us with a nuclear weapon and people will look back at this moment and say, 'What happened to those people in 2006?' and those are the stakes in this war we face.'"


This is the first time I've heard anyone in the administration refer to Iraq's oil in any sort of geopolitical/strategic sense.

It's one of those tacit truthes that oil is what Iraq is really all about except to admit it would be to admit that the US was an aggressive invading force. Now that we are there, of course, to just leave all that cheap oil for someone else to administer is completely out of the question.

He should have added, "Besides, it was OUR idea to use that oil to blackmail the everybody else - 'specially China, which needs to keep buying our T-bonds, dammit!"
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 02 Nov 2006, 18:34:21

And we can thank people like Bush for the U.S. being so depenedent on oil today.

After all, Andrew Card, Bush's former chief of staff and former General Motors lobbyist, acted as a plaintiff in the case against California's electric car program. Under Bush, the DOJ issued an amicus brief supporting GM, Ford, Daimler Chrysler, and other automakers in their desire to never have to sell a highway-capable electric car to the public. 45% of America's oil use is for automobile fuel, and electric cars are perfectly viable and people in fact want them. EVs could be affordable if mass produced, don't need oil for fuel, and with today's technology, 300 miles per charge and high performance is possible.

Not to mention the politics of wind energy, which Bush was involed with. His administration helped stifle it and is still trying to today. Our percentage growth of wind is nowhere near that of European countries as a result, and less than 1% of our electricity comes from wind, even though our grid could realistically handle 10-20% from wind and wind is now cheaper than coal(but elss profitable).

Not to mention the Bush admin's zeal in keeping the war on drugs in place, and refusing to allow industrial hemp to be cultivated in the U.S. EROEI > 2, 300 kg seed oil per hectare per harvest, no pesticides needed, < 1 t/ha/yr soil erosion(below 5 t/ha/yr is considered sustainable in most places).

Not to mention the Bush admin's love for the oil industry, who it pampers with subsidies, courtesy of Joe Taxpayer.

Or how about the Bush admin's hatred of conservation? "Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy." ~Richard Cheney


It is people like Bush who got us in this mess. Why? They make their money in oil. We get to reap the consequences of what these ass clowns have sown for us. They get to pocket the profits.

If old Georgie Boy feels that protecting middle east oil is so important, while him and his ilk have helped stall viable alternatives to oil to protect their profit margins, then he should go die there himself protecting that black gold, and leave our men and women in uniform alone.

If his concern for this nation's general welfare were genuine, he'd have put the profits of himself and his campaign financers well behind the future of this country.

I cannot take this flatulent traitor seriously.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby NEOPO » Thu 02 Nov 2006, 18:39:11

It is interesting but I dont think saying its about oil is a huge bombshell for the people.

Anyone left entertaining the thought that we are there to spread democracy might be alittle shocked yet how many people still feel that way?

All in all I think the people equate oil to money so this just confirms certain peoples theories of conspiracy.

I now believe that "they" own everything pretty much anyways and money is not the matter.
Money dont make oil ;-)

Yep a bit of truth through a fog of lies.
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby gampy » Fri 03 Nov 2006, 00:15:59

Perhaps they have gotten as much mileage out of the "Freedom for the Iraqi people!" line as they can. I guess they are slowly letting it enter the public conciousness that it's all about the oil, perhaps more precisely, the petrodollar.

Who knows, maybe his handlers were taking the day off.

What I believe is that they have realized the truth is not as un-palatable to the American public as they originally thought.

They don't care to sugar coat it anymore. The American people realize it, as do their allies.

We realize what it's all about. Why are we not protesting at the white house this very minute? Why is Bush still in office? He gave us a comforting lie, so we could all go to bed at night not worried that people were going to die in the thousands so that we could continue our way of life and not wind up in foodlines and welfare offices. People talk about the deceits, but who is more to blame? Him and the government, or the population?

Everyone is making Bush a patsy for the oil companies, but we still buy their oil?

I dont know anymore. He could not have done all this without the implicit consent of the congress and senate. And the people.

Bush is still an asshole, but I don't think he and his cabal are the only guilty parties here. No one is innocent.
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Fri 03 Nov 2006, 00:43:55

Everyone is making Bush a patsy for the oil companies, but we still buy their oil?


When most of us need a means to get to work, and all the products we consume make use of it, and when industry pushes for oil-intensive agricultural practices to boost profits, much of what is occuring is outside our realm of control.

Up until the 1940s, America had an extensive mass transit system. Car use was a luxury instead of a necessity for most. The auto, oil companies and Federal Government dismantled it, seeking to encourage auto consumption and grow the economy out of the depression. There were riots in many cities over this. he people wanted one thing, and government and industry wanted another. Throw in artificial subsidization of suburbs to the expense of city dwellers, and a huge propaganda campiagn, and the people eventually gave in. Fast forward a few generations later, and people see this as normal.

We buy oil because alternatives to its use aren't made available. Not all of us can commute to work via bicycle or change job locations, even if we did make major lifestyle changes. Finding a job with a livable income now days alone is difficult, imagine finding one elsewhere that offered similar income. The survival instinct for many outweighs the desire to reduce consumption for obvious reasons.

Our consumption habits have been moreso manipulated than they are voluntary. The average American should take much blame for hypocritically consuming these products, but there are factors outside of their control that influence what they do.

When hemp started to threaten the cotton, wood paper, petroleum, and petrochemical industries in the 1920s/30s, the government gave us the war on drugs and marijuana tax act. When Americans wanted to keep their mass transit in the 1940s, industry and government still destroyed it. When Americans became outraged at the use of pesticides in the 1960s, industry never changed its ways; they had basically gained control over food production with few alternatives available. When wind electricity got cheaper than coal in the 1990s, the coal industry got to lobbying to slow its adoption, and we use far less of it than we have the potential to. When GM crops and factory farms became the norm in the 1990s and Americans grew outraged, industry had pretty much wiped out the family farm, and people again kept buying their products given the copious amount of time and money required to find alternatives. When many Americans wanted electric cars in the 1990s, industry refused to meet any demand outright.

We live in a society where entrenched industries are protected and subsidized, and allowed to make our public policy, regardless of what the people really want. The people merely go with the flow, not having much else to do.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby Mechler » Fri 03 Nov 2006, 00:58:18

Have the ramifications of the U.S. "losing" Iraq been discussed on this site? I mean, if we left now we could kiss Iraq's production (2 mbpd?) goodbye, right? And if that happenned crude prices would certainly rise.

I'm not using this as an argument for one course of action over another, but it's interesting to me that I haven't seen this discussion anywhere. (I'm sure someone here has brought it up, though)

How would the American public's feelings on Iraq change if you told them that gas would be back over $3/gal if we left today?

Obviously Bush knows the ramifications, and it's funny that he said what he did. But then, what's he got to lose (besides congress :P)
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby gampy » Fri 03 Nov 2006, 01:06:01

The_Toecutter wrote:
Everyone is making Bush a patsy for the oil companies, but we still buy their oil?


When most of us need a means to get to work, and all the products we consume make use of it, and when industry pushes for oil-intensive agricultural practices to boost profits, much of what is occuring is outside our realm of control.



I would respectfully suggest that is a cop out.

I don't wish to point a finger at you personally, just at human nature in general.

Not all of us can commute to work via bicycle or change job locations...


I am not sure that is true. If you insert "would" instead of "can", that statement might ring true.

It depends on what you are willing to do. Humans like their creature comforts. Those comforts mean more to them than dead people 5,000 miles away.

It's all a choice. You can drop off the grid and live like a hobo in the forest, but it's pretty hard to choose that lifestyle. Unless you are insane or superhuman. That's what I am saying. I think human nature is Bush's best friend. That's how most leaders have got their constituencies to follow them. We hem and haw, and say he is a psychopath for ordering the deaths of all these people, but I truly believe we give him tacit consent.
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby SchroedingersCat » Fri 03 Nov 2006, 01:06:16

Don't forget that the original name for the current Iraq invasion was Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL).
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby Zardoz » Fri 03 Nov 2006, 04:26:31

gampy wrote:
Not all of us can commute to work via bicycle or change job locations...


I am not sure that is true.

It is absolutely true. It's just economic reality. In fact, he should have said "almost none of us" rather than "not all of us". That's why running out of liquid fuels is going to be so desperately awful. It's what Peak Oil is all about.
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby gampy » Fri 03 Nov 2006, 05:43:36

Zardoz wrote:
gampy wrote:
Not all of us can commute to work via bicycle or change job locations...


I am not sure that is true.

It is absolutely true. It's just economic reality. In fact, he should have said "almost none of us" rather than "not all of us". That's why running out of liquid fuels is going to be so desperately awful. It's what Peak Oil is all about.


Yeah. Peak oil is going to suck. Whose fault is that?

Move to where you work, or get a job where you live. Not hard to do.

If you can't live where you work, you have the wrong job. If you can't work where you live, you are living in the wrong place.

I gave up a job where i had to commute, now I walk to work. Make less money, but I am way more happy and my transportation costs are negligable. I do not own a car. Nor do I want to. I moved to a smalller city so I can walk or bicycle pretty much everywhere I need to go. It isn't desperately awful. In fact it's pretty nice.

I think you mis- read the gist of my original post. Everything is about choices.

While I have not dropped off the grid yet, my energy footprint is pretty small. My vacations involve kayaking the local river systems, not flying to some resort in Mexico.

Transporting anything bigger than myself takes a little planning, but it's very very doable.

I am not saying what I have done is somehow morally superior, far from it. It's just a choice I made, and I live with it. You'll have to live with yours, when you can't afford to travel by automobile.
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby RdSnt » Fri 03 Nov 2006, 08:58:44

I've done the same thing, not primarily because of P.O. but being of Scots decent I'm just a cheap bastard and contrary.

However, that vast majority of first world people will not change. We don't need to look that hard to see this is true. There is so much clear immediate evidence of global warming, pollution and the wholesale destruction of our foodchain (Fish anyone?), yet it is business as usual.
The report on fish stock collapse is a very good example, yet on the news the fisherman are saying all they need to do is manage things better. What is that?
Here in Canada the cod have simply disappeared through overfishing, yet our fisherman refuse to carry any of the responsibility for how that came about. It's someone else's fault and they should be allow to continue to fish. That the cod they can pull out of the ocean are the size of guppies doesn't seem to matter.
We all in the first world, am I'm including myself, have made such a balls-up mess of things that the only way to avoid a precipitous die-off in the near future is to turn-off the first world nations. Now, what would that do?


gampy wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
gampy wrote:
Not all of us can commute to work via bicycle or change job locations...


I am not sure that is true.

It is absolutely true. It's just economic reality. In fact, he should have said "almost none of us" rather than "not all of us". That's why running out of liquid fuels is going to be so desperately awful. It's what Peak Oil is all about.


Yeah. Peak oil is going to suck. Whose fault is that?

Move to where you work, or get a job where you live. Not hard to do.

If you can't live where you work, you have the wrong job. If you can't work where you live, you are living in the wrong place.

I gave up a job where i had to commute, now I walk to work. Make less money, but I am way more happy and my transportation costs are negligable. I do not own a car. Nor do I want to. I moved to a smalller city so I can walk or bicycle pretty much everywhere I need to go. It isn't desperately awful. In fact it's pretty nice.

I think you mis- read the gist of my original post. Everything is about choices.

While I have not dropped off the grid yet, my energy footprint is pretty small. My vacations involve kayaking the local river systems, not flying to some resort in Mexico.

Transporting anything bigger than myself takes a little planning, but it's very very doable.

I am not saying what I have done is somehow morally superior, far from it. It's just a choice I made, and I live with it. You'll have to live with yours, when you can't afford to travel by automobile.
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby abelardlindsay » Sat 04 Nov 2006, 02:05:32

Being the lone arm-chair neo-con on Peak Oil, I kind of figured this was their strategy all along -- to keep the power to economically blackmail the world out of the mullah's hands. I doubt the rest of the world is too enthusiastic about that either. Russia and China are happy playing energy chess with the U.S as they try to toe hold their way to post-peak dominance by admitting Iran into SCO (Shanghai Co-operation Organization).
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby NEOPO » Sat 04 Nov 2006, 10:27:53

high prices are good - or at least i thought that was the general concensus amungst peakers....

There is always more then 2 paths yet most people seem to deny this and argue over the 2 "easily perceiveable" paths.

Powerdown and watch our economy collapse or kill for it.
Yeah I can see how that fits the neocon agenda nicely.
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Re: A piece of truth peeks through a fog of lies

Unread postby AgentR » Sat 04 Nov 2006, 22:07:57

abelardlindsay wrote:Russia and China are happy playing energy chess with the U.S as they try to toe hold their way to post-peak dominance by admitting Iran into SCO (Shanghai Co-operation Organization).


It is an interesting game of divy-up-the-world isn't it.

China: Why send 100,000 troops that cost money, when you can send 100,000,000 settlers who make money.

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