Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:48:40

Colorado-Valley wrote:But how many of those people are eating food created by heavy diesel machinery and the input of countless tons of petroleum-made fertilizers and pesticides?

I recently watched a documentary about a desertified city in north-central Africa - I think it was Timbuktu - that can no longer feed itself because sand dunes have swept over what used to be its forests and farmland.

The food comes to the city everyday in river ships filled with sacks of U.S. grain. To eat, the people are dependent on food raised a half a planet away, grown by diesel tractors and then shipped by diesel all the way to the interior of Africa.

These people are going to have problems ...


Timbuktu has always fascinated me for some reason, it is one of the oldest cities on Earth and has survived all sorts of upheaval in its long existence.

Now it is back in the news again because there is fighting going on there.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/2 ... 73109.html
SEVARE, Mali -- Timbuktu, the fabled desert city where retreating Muslim extremists destroyed ancient manuscripts, was a center of Islamic learning hundreds of years before Columbus landed in the Americas.

It is not known how many of the priceless documents were destroyed by al Qaida-linked fighters who set ablaze a state-of-the-art library built with South African funding to conserve the brittle, camel-hide bound manuscripts from the harshness of the Sahara Desert climate and preserve them so researchers can study them.

News of the destruction came Monday from the mayor of Timbuktu. With its Islamic treasures and centuries-old mud-walled buildings including an iconic mosque, Timbuktu is a U.N.-designated World Heritage Site.

The damage caused by the fleeing Islamists was limited, but irreplaceable treasures were lost.

Most of the manuscripts, which are as many as 900 years old, were gathered between the 1980s and 2000 from all over Mali for the Ahmed Baba Institute for Higher Learning and Islamic Research, which moved into its new home in 2009.

The library held about 30,000 manuscripts of which only about one third had been catalogued, according to its Web site. The world may never know what it has lost.

The manuscripts cover subjects ranging from science, astrology and medicine to history, theology, grammar and geography. All are in Arabic script, in the Arabic language and African languages.

They date back to the late 12th century, the start of a 300-year golden age for Timbuktu as a spiritual and intellectual capital for the propagation of Islam on the continent.

Michael Covitt, chairman of the Malian Manuscript Foundation, called them "the most important find since the Dead Sea Scrolls."


These writings are the common heritage of all of humanity, it is a tragedy and a crime that anyone would destroy them.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/201 ... hind-them/
(Librarian Aboubakar Yaro examines an Islamic manuscript from the 17th century at the Djenne Library of Manuscipts, in Djenne, September 1, 2012. Librarians from the northern Malian town of Timbuktu–besieged since April by Al-Qaeda linked Islamists–are urging the digitization of Djenne’s manuscripts. Picture taken September 1, 2012. REUTERS/Joe Penney )

The burning of a library housing thousands of ancient manuscripts in Mali’s desert city of Timbuktu is just the latest act of destruction by Islamist fighters who have spent months smashing graves and holy shrines in the World Heritage site.

The United Nations cultural body UNESCO said it was trying to find out the precise damage done to the Ahmed Baba Institute, a modern building that contains priceless documents dating back to the 13th century.

The manuscripts are “uniquely valuable and testify to a long tradition of learning and cultural exchange,” said UNESCO spokesman Roni Amelan. “So we are horrified.”

But if they are horrified, historians and religious scholars are unlikely to have been surprised by this gesture of defiance by Islamist rebels fleeing the ancient trading post on the threshold of the Sahara as French and Malian troops moved in.

“It was one of the greatest libraries of Islamic manuscripts in the world,” said Marie Rodet, an African history lecturer at London’s School of Oriental and African Studies.

“It’s pure retaliation. They knew they were losing the battle and they hit where it really hurts,” she told Reuters.


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/29 ... -timbuktu/
"The Malian military is in control of Timbuktu," Modibo Traore told The Associated Press on Tuesday morning.

The French military operation began more than two weeks ago and has so far met little resistance though experts warn it will be harder to hold on to the towns than it was to recapture them from the Islamists.

Photos released by the French military showed throngs of jubilant residents greeting the arrival of troops in the town, where Islamists whipped women for going outside without veils and amputated the hand of a suspected thief.


This story reminds me of the stories we got out of Kabul, Afghanistan in 2003 showing men getting their beards trimmed or shaved off after the Taliban was driven out of the city. How long will the peace and happiness last?
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17056
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 29 Jan 2013, 13:26:51

Tanada wrote:It is not known how many of the priceless documents were destroyed by al Qaida-linked fighters who set ablaze a state-of-the-art library built with South African funding to conserve the brittle, camel-hide bound manuscripts from the harshness of the Sahara Desert climate and preserve them so researchers can study them....
Most of the manuscripts, which are as many as 900 years old, were gathered between the 1980s and 2000 from all over Mali for the Ahmed Baba Institute for Higher Learning and Islamic Research, which moved into its new home in 2009.

The library held about 30,000 manuscripts of which only about one third had been catalogued, according to its Web site. The world may never know what it has lost.

The manuscripts cover subjects ranging from science, astrology and medicine to history, theology, grammar and geography. All are in Arabic script, in the Arabic language and African languages....
These writings are the common heritage of all of humanity, it is a tragedy and a crime that anyone would destroy them.


This is a very old story----Islamists famously torched the library in Alexandria over a thousand years ago. I'm not surprised these modern Islamists torched the library in Timbuktu last week. Suppressing history and and destroying other cultures is what islamists do.

The good news is that some scholarly families in Timbuktu kept some manuscripts back and hid them from the Islamists so not everything was totally lost when the modern library was torched by the Islamists.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26619
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 29 Jan 2013, 15:12:20

just a couple hundred years ago catholic priests destroyed the vast majority of Mayan codices.

http://www.historyofinformation.com/exp ... hp?id=1896

And yes the Mayans were already deep in decline.

Our modern codices? stored digitally....... how long will they survive the test of time?
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 29 Jan 2013, 16:54:56

Remember when the US invaders encouraged criminals to loot public buildings in Iraq including the Museum of Antiquities (but protected the Oil Ministry).
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Beery1 » Tue 29 Jan 2013, 18:18:18

Plantagenet wrote:Islamists famously torched the library in Alexandria over a thousand years ago. I'm not surprised these modern Islamists torched the library in Timbuktu last week. Suppressing history and and destroying other cultures is what islamists do.


Erm, as I've said before, the library at Alexandria has been destroyed many times, first by Julius Caesar in 48BC, then its remains were destroyed or relocated by the Emperor Aurelian in the 3rd Century AD, then again by decree of the Emperor Theodosius I in 391. The idea that it was torched by Islamists is a myth. The library was long gone by then.

Two out of the three times the library was destroyed were due to war. When people fight in a city, public services like fire departments don't work. It's not exactly surprising that stuff gets burned in such situations. Blaming Julius Caesar's accidental destruction of the Great Library at Alexandria on 'Islamists' seems nutty even for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

But I guess you'll keep on spouting your weird fantasy version of events.
"I'm gonna have to ask you boys to stop raping our doctor."
Beery1
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue 17 Jan 2012, 21:31:15

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 29 Jan 2013, 20:12:12

Beery1 wrote: the library at Alexandria ...The idea that it was torched by Islamists is a myth.


Then why do five separate Arab historians say it was destroyed by the invading Muslim army because the books and their knowledge were thought to be opposed to the Koran?

Arabic sources (sourced from Wikipedia)
In 642, Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of Amr ibn al `Aas. There are five Arabic sources...which mention the fate of the library.
Abd'l Latif of Baghdad (1162–1231) states that the library of Alexandria was destroyed by Amr, by the order of the Caliph Omar.
The story is also found in Al-Qifti (1172–1248), History of Learned Men
The longest version of the story is in the Syriac Christian author Bar-Hebraeus (1226–1286), also known as Abu'l Faraj. He translated extracts from his history, the Chronicum Syriacum into Arabic, and added extra material from Arab sources. In this Historia Compendiosa Dynastiarum[34] he describes a certain "John Grammaticus" (490–570) asking Amr for the "books in the royal library." Amr writes to Omar for instructions, and Omar replies: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them."
Al-Maqrizi (1364–1442) also mentions the story.
There is also an account in Ibn Khaldun (1332–1406)...

I wonder who is most likely right on whether or not Islamists destroyed the library in Alexandria....its our own "beerie" saying "its a myth" versus versus five separate Arab historians who spent their lives recording Arab history and whose job it was to record historical events in the caliphate who each record that an Islamist ruler ordered the destruction of books in the Library because they were held to be "opposed to the Koran" ...hmmmmm....thats a tough one. :roll:

Image
Al Qifti and four other important Arab historians from the middle ages say Islamic fervor caused the destruction of the Libary at Alexandria

And I imagine someday when people talk about the destruction of ancient documents in the library at Timbuktu in the year 2013, there will be another beerie----lets call him the beerie-of-the-future---- who will be oh-so-sure it couldn't have been the Islamists who did it.

Oh no. Not them.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26619
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 29 Jan 2013, 22:10:17

Plantagenet wrote:(sourced from Wikipedia)
Ha ha, I spotted your micro-text.

You left out:
There are five Arabic sources, all at least 500 years after the supposed events


These "historians" write a tale about events half a millennium prior. Where do you suppose they get their info? Only one or two of them are independent. Two only mention it.

I bet you also believe the tale about the Jews being expelled from Palestine. Even Wikipedia doesn't have that, last time I looked.
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 30 Jan 2013, 01:39:15

A lot of history was verbally passed for centuries before ever being written. Read the history of Tibet for an example.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9284
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Jan 2013, 03:44:55

Keith_McClary wrote:You left out: There are five Arabic sources, all at least 500 years after the supposed events


You must be blind. I didn't "leave it out"----the dates of the Arab invasion of Egypt and destruction of the library at Alexandria are right there in my post, as is the date of each of the five Arab historians.

Keith_McClary wrote:These "historians" write a tale about events half a millennium prior.


Yes indeed. Historians have this curious habit of writing about events hundreds of years in the past---I'm surprised you don't know that.

Keith_McClary wrote:Where do you suppose they get their info?


The same place medieval historians usually get their info---from old documents and even earlier writings which are lost to us today. The Wikipedia article only discusses one of the historical accounts in detail, and makes it clear that it was derived from multiple older sources. :roll:
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26619
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Beery1 » Wed 30 Jan 2013, 08:22:21

While I'm sure Islamists are quite capable of burning books - all cultures are - the point here is that Alexandria's great library was burned, then the remaining books were taken from the Serapeum, then the remaining buildings were demolished, all over a period of half a millennium, and all 200 years before Muhammad was even BORN! Islamic leaders wanted a propaganda tool to use to support more book burnings, so they propagated this myth that they were the cause of the destruction of the Great Library.

But please, go on believing that "Islamists" took a trip in a time machine to 48BC and torched the library. It's a nice barometer for people to judge how fricken loony you are, and on a site like this, where some members believe in ancient astronauts and other nutty conspiracy theories, we definitely need such things.
"I'm gonna have to ask you boys to stop raping our doctor."
Beery1
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue 17 Jan 2012, 21:31:15

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Jan 2013, 13:28:38

Beery1 wrote:While I'm sure Islamists are quite capable of burning books - all cultures are - the point here is that Alexandria's great library was burned...200 years before Muhammad was even BORN!


History records four separate times the library at Alexandria was damaged and/or burned---(1) during Julius Caeser's invasion in 48 BC (2) During an invasion by Aurelian (ca. 270-275) (3) Following an anti-paganism decree by Theodosius (391) and (4) in 692 when an Arab muslim army conquered Egypt. While the library was reconstituted after the first three events, the final burning by the Muslims killed it off as an institution.

Beery1 wrote: Islamic leaders wanted a propaganda tool to use to support more book burnings, so they propagated this myth that they were the cause of the destruction of the Great Library.


The destruction of the Library at Alexandria is one of the great crimes against civilization in the history of the world. Your claim that five scholarly Arab historians are all in cahoots with mysterious "Islamic leaders" in a scheme to falsely claim "credit" for this atrocity is nutso, especially as the Arab historical accounts CONDEMN the destruction of the library in direct contradiction of your ridiculous claim. :roll:

-----------------------------
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26619
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 30 Jan 2013, 16:16:05

Back to Timbuktu, the loss of the library manuscripts is not the first time this center was burned either, but that does nothing to alleviate the tragedy that comes from this current burning. As one of the history nuts who populate this board I can not express how awful this event is to me, just because you do not like someone else or the idea's they express does not give you the right to destroy their work and desecrate their tombs to show your disagreement. In case you missed it amongst the library news the islamists also broke into many of the crypts in the mausoleum for the Sufi's and robbed the dead to show how much they disliked the Sufi branch of Islamic philosophy.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17056
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Jan 2013, 17:11:15

Tanada wrote: As one of the history nuts who populate this board I can not express how awful this event is to me, just because you do not like someone else or the idea's they express does not give you the right to destroy their work and desecrate their tombs to show your disagreement. In case you missed it amongst the library news the islamists also broke into many of the crypts in the mausoleum for the Sufi's and robbed the dead to show how much they disliked the Sufi branch of Islamic philosophy.


Yup. I love history too and I feel exactly the same way.

And this was not just a few loons randomly vandalizing the shrines and books. This was done intentionally as a matter of religious purification by the Islamists who had taken over Timbuktu. The same kind of thing was done by the Taliban in Afghanistan when they destroyed the giant Bhudda statues with cannon fire and destroyed ancient graphic art in the Kabul museums. Sadly, there is a thread of Islamist thought that results in the destruction of graphic art and the destruction of writings other than the Koran.

Thats why the historical accounts of the destruction of the Library in Alexandria after the Muslim conquest are so relevant. According to these accounts, after Amr and his army had conquered Egypt he asked Caliph Omar back in Baghdad for instructions as to what to with the library in Alexandria, and Caliph Omar replied in perhaps the earliest known example of a CATCH-22: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them."

The exact same kind of Islamicist thought fanaticism was responsible for what happened in Timbuktu.
Last edited by Plantagenet on Wed 30 Jan 2013, 17:38:26, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26619
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Jan 2013, 17:36:18

Speaking of history, anyone interested in ancient libraries should someday visit St. Catherine's monastery in the SInai...plunked down right on the slopes of Mt. Sinai. When I was in Israel in 2011 I visited Eliat at the southeast tip, and then arranged to cross over into Egypt to visit the famous Monastery of St. Catherine at Mt. Sinai in the center of the Sinai Peninsula. Egypt was in the middle of overthrowing Mubarak, but things were still quiet in the Sinai.

The Monastery was built in the 6th century (about 550 AD) by Romans from Constantinople----and it is famous today for its library which has been in continuous operation for over 1400 years and contains the second largest collection of ancient manuscripts known in the entire world! Copies of a few of the books likely lost when Rome was sacked by the Vandals and the library in Alexandria was burned by the Caliph's army and the libraries in Constantinople were destroyed by the Turks have recently been found buried in the library at the Monastery.

How did this little library survive without being destroyed? Well---the middle of the Sinai is an incredibly remote location, but a detachment from the same Muslim armies that conquered Egypt and destroyed the library in Alexandria eventually came to sack the little monastery in the Sinai. When the army arrived the monks somehow produced a huge letter on parchment that they said came directly from the prophet Muhammad. This letter from Muhammad PBOH awarded the monastery Muhammad's PERSONAL protection and It was sufficient to protect the Monastery and its library from the invading Muslims.

Its been suggested the desperate monks forged the letter when the Muslim army arrived, and for sure Its hard to say how Muhammad PBOH would've ever heard of this little monastery or how and why he would've sent them the letter, but the letter still exists in the monastery library today----as do the books and ancient church decorations and all the rest of the incredible building the Romans built when they established this still active monastery some 1450 years ago.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26619
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 02 Feb 2013, 00:21:10

Plantagenet wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:These "historians" write a tale about events half a millennium prior.


Yes indeed. Historians have this curious habit of writing about events hundreds of years in the past---I'm surprised you don't know that.

Keith_McClary wrote:Where do you suppose they get their info?


The same place medieval historians usually get their info---from old documents and even earlier writings which are lost to us today. The Wikipedia article only discusses one of the historical accounts in detail, and makes it clear that it was derived from multiple older sources. :roll:

Unlike your Wackypedia, modern historians don't focus on one dubious ancient source (your five "separate" sources are not independent) and ignore more recent studies.

The Islamaphobe Bishop Gregory's tale is controversial at best:
http://bede.org.uk/library.htm
http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ ... .cfm?aid=9
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-des ... alexandria
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... alexandria
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/ ... at-library
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 02 Feb 2013, 03:10:33

Keith_McClary wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:These "historians" write a tale about events half a millennium prior.


Yes indeed. Historians have this curious habit of writing about events hundreds of years in the past---I'm surprised you don't know that.

Keith_McClary wrote: Bishop Gregory's tale is controversial at best


Every tale about the Library in Alexandria is controversial at best. However, Bar-Hebraeus was clearly one of the greatest scholars of medieval times, and he based his lengthy histories on older writings that are now lost. I can't imagine why you single him out for your opprobrium---do you have something personal against him?

Bar-Hebraeus---one of the greatest scholars of the medieval period

I went through your links and they aren't written by historians---they are amateur web sites and newpaper articles and such. They also all suffer from a simple minded belief that a library can only be "destroyed" once. But libraries aren't just the scrolls and parchments---they are also the library staff and the government institutions that support the library. If the library was burned by, say, Julius Caesar it would be reconstituted by the librarians----after all, the library was their job. Its also likely the librarians would save everything they could ---- just as the librarians in Timbuktu saved most of their books when the nutty Islamists tried to destroy them all. In any case, all the libraries of the ancient world employed scribes whose job was to COPY the scrolls and the libraries would exchange them with one-another. The 300 years after the library was destroyed by Caesar was quite enough time to reconstitute a library prior to the next act of destruction, and 300 more years was enough to reassemble a library just in time for Caliph Omar to ignorantly destroy it again---this time to never to rise again. 8)
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26619
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 02 Feb 2013, 14:02:20

Plantagenet wrote:Every tale about the Library in Alexandria is controversial at best.
You stated it as a certainty.
Plantagenet wrote: I can't imagine why you single him out for your opprobrium---do you have something personal against him?
Never met the guy. :lol: Just that he was the most prominent of five proponents of this story which seems to come from a common source.

Plantagenet wrote:Bar-Hebraeus---one of the greatest scholars of the medieval period

I went through your links and they aren't written by historians---they are amateur web sites and newpaper articles and such.
That sentence follows a link to Wikipedia. :P

"XXXXX is the greatest US president in history". If you don't believe, give me 5 minutes and check Wikipedia. :lol:

osu.edu was the only academic-ish source I could find, perhaps you know others?

My point was, the articles discuss information acquired since the 13th century, which you and Wikipedia consider unnecessary.

Plantagenet wrote: ...
Amateur historical theorizing.
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Timbuktu Fabled City of Islamic Culture

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 02 Feb 2013, 20:50:30

Keith_McClary wrote:"XXXXX is the greatest US president in history". If you don't believe, give me 5 minutes and check Wikipedia.


Your case for XXXX being the greatest US president in history is about as well supported as your claim that five medieval Arab historians each decided they would misrepresent history in the books they wrote to make the Arabs look bad. :roll:
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26619
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Next

Return to Africa Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests