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What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby What_Went_Wrong » Tue 15 May 2007, 10:25:35

Out of my 2 years of reading these forums I never noticed the subject covered, if it has been I apologize.

If we had never drilled oil and burnt it off at the rate we did, is there a possibility it would have become a major environmental issue itself in 100's or 1000's of years time? Would the pressure have gotten so much that the ground above oil fields would have exploded in time? I have no idea on this subject, I'm just wondering.

From what I understand the amounts of oil only increase when there was significant global warming on the planet that helped 'cook' the vegetation ect. So I guess we were someway off the grounds exploding.

(on that thought, as we all die off and the climate heats up even further due to our self inflicted GW, then we ourself could become the base for the next oil fields, not sure if it would work like that but an interesting thought)

I'm not really at all informed about any of this so hit me with some statistics and opinions please :)
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby aldente » Tue 15 May 2007, 10:46:41

I really is the fire - cavemen technology that causes the imbalance.
The fuel, oil for instance is secondary.

Rarely the 'burning' principle is questioned, meaning heat, expansion,combustion etc. caused by rapid oxidation (fire), there are exceptions however for instance Victor Schauberger

This does not mean that he had the answers but at least he looked into completely different principles for energy generation.

I guess you wonder if an advanced mindset with such understanding combined with working Schauberger generators would have prevented the mess that we are causing.
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby JPL » Tue 15 May 2007, 17:49:44

What_Went_Wrong wrote:Out of my 2 years of reading these forums I never noticed the subject covered, if it has been I apologize.

If we had never drilled oil and burnt it off at the rate we did, is there a possibility it would have become a major environmental issue itself in 100's or 1000's of years time? Would the pressure have gotten so much that the ground above oil fields would have exploded in time? I have no idea on this subject, I'm just wondering.

From what I understand the amounts of oil only increase when there was significant global warming on the planet that helped 'cook' the vegetation ect. So I guess we were someway off the grounds exploding.

(on that thought, as we all die off and the climate heats up even further due to our self inflicted GW, then we ourself could become the base for the next oil fields, not sure if it would work like that but an interesting thought)

I'm not really at all informed about any of this so hit me with some statistics and opinions please :)


Er, yea. You need to read a couple of books on geology and also un-link in your mind the difference between oil/economic issues & climate change. Also read up on the latter whilst you are there. Just a tip...

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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby What_Went_Wrong » Tue 15 May 2007, 21:08:28

I'm not by any means suggesting it's good we drilled oil, was just wondering if at any time in the planets history it might have become a problem if it was left as it is. Sure I could read up on it, I was just hoping someone in the know would enjoy sharing some knowledge. If not, then off I go on some research.

I follow GW, mostly the situation with the gulf stream.

What do you mean about unlinking my mind between oil/economic issues?
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 15 May 2007, 21:30:27

What_Went_Wrong wrote:Out of my 2 years of reading these forums I never noticed the subject covered, if it has been I apologize.

If we had never drilled oil and burnt it off at the rate we did, is there a possibility it would have become a major environmental issue itself in 100's or 1000's of years time? Would the pressure have gotten so much that the ground above oil fields would have exploded in time? I have no idea on this subject, I'm just wondering.

From what I understand the amounts of oil only increase when there was significant global warming on the planet that helped 'cook' the vegetation ect. So I guess we were someway off the grounds exploding.

(on that thought, as we all die off and the climate heats up even further due to our self inflicted GW, then we ourself could become the base for the next oil fields, not sure if it would work like that but an interesting thought)

I'm not really at all informed about any of this so hit me with some statistics and opinions please :)


The short answer is, no the oil and natural gas are pretty much stuck in those geological traps unless we break them out. There have always been and probably always will be natural seeps, places where something has cracked the trap and natural gas or petroleum is slowly being released on the surface. Think of it this way, if you are squeezing a bolwling ball from all directions you can crush it down to a smaller volume, but you need a huge pressure to do so. The petroleum and natural gas in thos geological traps is already crushed by the weight of all the rock/soil/water between them and the surface. If there is a tiny crack they will find it and seep out, otherwise they will stay where they are.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby Grifter » Tue 15 May 2007, 21:37:53

Tanada wrote:The short answer is, no the oil and natural gas are pretty much stuck in those geological traps unless we break them out. There have always been and probably always will be natural seeps, places where something has cracked the trap and natural gas or petroleum is slowly being released on the surface. Think of it this way, if you are squeezing a bolwling ball from all directions you can crush it down to a smaller volume, but you need a huge pressure to do so. The petroleum and natural gas in thos geological traps is already crushed by the weight of all the rock/soil/water between them and the surface. If there is a tiny crack they will find it and seep out, otherwise they will stay where they are.


Please correct me if I'm wrong. Man has never managed to compress solid or liquid. Only gas.

I promise you I'm not being a troll or anything. But are you saying that organic matter gets compressed as well as other stuff and that forms oil?
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby Lore » Tue 15 May 2007, 22:18:06

Grifter wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong. Man has never managed to compress solid or liquid. Only gas.

I promise you I'm not being a troll or anything. But are you saying that organic matter gets compressed as well as other stuff and that forms oil?


I don't know, but I can tell you, I was once constipated for a week. I was able to compress all three forms.
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 16 May 2007, 06:34:47

Grifter wrote:
Tanada wrote:The short answer is, no the oil and natural gas are pretty much stuck in those geological traps unless we break them out. There have always been and probably always will be natural seeps, places where something has cracked the trap and natural gas or petroleum is slowly being released on the surface. Think of it this way, if you are squeezing a bolwling ball from all directions you can crush it down to a smaller volume, but you need a huge pressure to do so. The petroleum and natural gas in those geological traps is already crushed by the weight of all the rock/soil/water between them and the surface. If there is a tiny crack they will find it and seep out, otherwise they will stay where they are.


Please correct me if I'm wrong. Man has never managed to compress solid or liquid. Only gas.

I promise you I'm not being a troll or anything. But are you saying that organic matter gets compressed as well as other stuff and that forms oil?


This is a common misperception and proof of how badly our education system is failing.

Gasses compress very easily, the molecules are far apart and squeezing them closer together is not very difficult.

Liquids are harder to compress because the molecules are already closer together, but for an example the ammount of water mass per liter at a 2000 meter ocean depth is significantly higher than the same volume at sea level. This happens because the water is compressed, the molecules are squeezed closer together due to the greater pressure. Mankind does this routinely, the compressed fluids in any hydraulic machinery you have seen working are one example, another is a water cutter, a machine that compresses ordinary water to huge pressure then shoots it out a tiny apeture to cut through solids like a hot knife through butter.

Solids are the hardest to compress, they are made of molecules that lock together instead of freely flowing past one another like those in liquids and gasses. There are places not far from where I live where erosion over the eons has moved mountains so that only the roots remain behind. In those locations you can find layer upon layer of rock that is just as solid as it is anyplace else on the surface, but the layers are repeatedly folded like a spagetti noodles that were twisted around when wet and then allowed to dry. The rock literally flows from pressure a few miles below the surface's you have walked on all your life. Because the pressure at those depths is from all directions at any one point the rock flows slowly instead of breaking, and as forces push it first one way and then another it folds over upon itself. Mankind does something similer on a much lower pressure scale, look up Pre-stressed Concrete.

Geological traps are simply places where a source rock, one that contains Petroleum or Natural Gas, is underneath a fold in an impermiable 'cap' rock which does not allow the resource to escape.
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby JPL » Wed 16 May 2007, 17:58:43

What_Went_Wrong wrote:I'm not by any means suggesting it's good we drilled oil, was just wondering if at any time in the planets history it might have become a problem if it was left as it is. Sure I could read up on it, I was just hoping someone in the know would enjoy sharing some knowledge. If not, then off I go on some research.

I follow GW, mostly the situation with the gulf stream.

What do you mean about unlinking my mind between oil/economic issues?


Oh forget it, I'm off to put the horses to bed and then go and get pissed. Figure it out for yourself.

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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby What_Went_Wrong » Wed 16 May 2007, 19:28:32

JPL wrote:
What_Went_Wrong wrote:I'm not by any means suggesting it's good we drilled oil, was just wondering if at any time in the planets history it might have become a problem if it was left as it is. Sure I could read up on it, I was just hoping someone in the know would enjoy sharing some knowledge. If not, then off I go on some research.

I follow GW, mostly the situation with the gulf stream.

What do you mean about unlinking my mind between oil/economic issues?


Oh forget it, I'm off to put the horses to bed and then go and get pissed. Figure it out for yourself.

JPL


Ah, an elitist doomer I see

I love how in so many of your posts you like to big yourself up by telling everyone the various farm related task you are about to do after finishing posting. If you didn't like my thread, or me, there was no need to post in it. I did nothing to provoke your subtlety insulting reactions.

Get over yourself.

EDIT: Thanks to everyone who responded to this with respect or just simply clicked the back button, it's been interesting reading.
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby Grifter » Wed 16 May 2007, 19:35:37

What_Went_Wrong wrote:
JPL wrote:
What_Went_Wrong wrote:I'm not by any means suggesting it's good we drilled oil, was just wondering if at any time in the planets history it might have become a problem if it was left as it is. Sure I could read up on it, I was just hoping someone in the know would enjoy sharing some knowledge. If not, then off I go on some research.

I follow GW, mostly the situation with the gulf stream.

What do you mean about unlinking my mind between oil/economic issues?


Oh forget it, I'm off to put the horses to bed and then go and get pissed. Figure it out for yourself.

JPL


Ah, an elitist doomer I see

I love how in so many of your posts you like to big yourself up by telling everyone the various farm related task you are about to do after finishing posting. If you didn't like my thread, or me, there was no need to post in it. I did nothing to provoke your subtlety insulting reactions.

Get over yourself.

EDIT: Thanks to everyone who responded to this with respect or just simply clicked the back button, it's been interesting reading.


Just don't think about it WWW, JPL makes some fine posts. I'm not that bothered about Tanada suggesting I'm the proof of a failing education system :?
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby What_Went_Wrong » Wed 16 May 2007, 19:45:44

Grifter wrote:
Just don't think about it WWW, JPL makes some fine posts. I'm not that bothered about Tanada suggesting I'm the proof of a failing education system :?


I know, I've read some very interesting posts of his, and I shall continue too do so no doubt. Does not mean I need to ignore his unnecessary rudeness just because he's to busy to elaborate on something. I just hate it when people get off on trying to make people look stupid for the sake of it.

So I might be further down the line of my peak oil awakening, and maybe it's too late for me to do a damn thing, but I'm here and trying to make a few like minded friends. I'm sorry if some of the stuff has been covered to death, but why can't us new comers have similar conversations with maybe some polite and helpful input from the veterans?

I brought part of an allotment today, probably pointless again but hey, I just wanna try and be proactive somehow and my preparations are in an early stage.
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby Grifter » Wed 16 May 2007, 20:09:48

What_Went_Wrong wrote:
I brought part of an allotment today, probably pointless again but hey, I just wanna try and be proactive somehow and my preparations are in an early stage.


It's not pointless at all. Peak Oil doesn't make anything pointless. Cool you got a lottie, I've got one too :) and fun it is.

and don't worry about the timing. no point in that at all. You'll have plenty of room for manouver, if thats how you spell it.
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 16 May 2007, 20:35:42

Grifter wrote:Just don't think about it WWW, JPL makes some fine posts. I'm not that bothered about Tanada suggesting I'm the proof of a failing education system :?


No insult to your intelligence was intended, I just get very frustrated when basic science materials have not been inculcated to the younger generation. The insult is to the modern educational institutions, not the students who as questions in hopes of learning.

There is a quote about education I have always been fond of by Robert Heinlein.
Dad says this is the best kind of a school, that a university consists of a log with a teacher on one end and a pupil on the other. But Dad is a sort of romantic.
—Robert A. Heinlein, Farmer in the Sky (1950)


So as they say, the only dumb question is the one you are afraid to ask. Ask away!
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby JPL » Thu 17 May 2007, 18:41:18

Oops, OK, sorry (mumble). Sometimes I get a bit hacked-off and the reason probably wasn't anything to do with the original post. I just have a chip on my shoulder about people asking others to do their thinking for them (growl - but it wasn't intended as a personal attack).

To answer your original question (humble pie) the pressure in any underground structure is a combination of rock type/permability, water table & surface flow, also fracturing & shape of underground strata. To put this in plain English, it's so damn complicated that it's anybody's guess how long a given structure would 'squirt' if puctured by nature - but it's usually quite short. Maybe no more than 2 or 3% of the well at most. Humans pump stuff like bentonite slurry down wells to keep them open & nature doesn't have that same sense of purpose...

Also with liquid crude you have to realise that it's in an inert form. It is only by combination with atmospheric oxygen (AKA burning) do you get the simpler molecules that rise and create greenhouse gases. This is a very unlikely reaction in nature but humans do it quite well. This is the fundamental problem...

With regard to the Gulf Stream & possible climate change issues I can see that the research is changing very fast in this area - so far the more we learn, the less we seem to know, so I think it is a fruitful area of research for many years to come. I mainly keep an eye on the Woods Hole institute for research in this area http://www.whoi.edu - worth bookmarking.

Can I go feed the horses now (smile)???

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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby Grifter » Thu 17 May 2007, 19:38:31

Tanada wrote:
Grifter wrote:Just don't think about it WWW, JPL makes some fine posts. I'm not that bothered about Tanada suggesting I'm the proof of a failing education system :?


No insult to your intelligence was intended, I just get very frustrated when basic science materials have not been inculcated to the younger generation. The insult is to the modern educational institutions, not the students who as questions in hopes of learning.

There is a quote about education I have always been fond of by Robert Heinlein.
Dad says this is the best kind of a school, that a university consists of a log with a teacher on one end and a pupil on the other. But Dad is a sort of romantic.
—Robert A. Heinlein, Farmer in the Sky (1950)


So as they say, the only dumb question is the one you are afraid to ask. Ask away!


There was no offence taken, its how things sometimes come accross here. However I was talking to my dad tonight about this thread (sad I know) and he made the quite plausable point that at high school level (don't know what that is in the US) it probably makes sense to just say that liquid and water cannot be compressed, period. Stops rambling in exams and that sort of thing.

I didn't do science. Read a little, mainly physics, as a hobby but I didn't choose the science path. Maybe I'd choose differently if I did it again, I don't know. When I have a question to ask I will ask it. Still realing from the last revelation.:shock:

Btw, thanks JPL. Go and feed your horses. :lol:
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Re: What would of happened if we never drilled oil?

Unread postby What_Went_Wrong » Thu 17 May 2007, 21:03:03

JPL wrote:Oops, OK, sorry (mumble). Sometimes I get a bit hacked-off and the reason probably wasn't anything to do with the original post. I just have a chip on my shoulder about people asking others to do their thinking for them (growl - but it wasn't intended as a personal attack).
JPL


hehe ok thanks for responding. If it means anything, I only got offended because I do respect your posting. I'm sure after some time on the boards (er, if there is much of that left) I'll end up with a pet hate such as this. I honestly do much reading on all this, I guess sometimes I hope for some help in thinking, I'll not lie about how overwhelmed I am by all this information I'm suddenly taking in.
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