[dohboi]

dis, in this case, you are making assumptions about posters here without justification or support. I don't see 'rabid support' from the left for Hillary. More like grudging giving in to the necessity to hold their noses to vote for a candidate they despise so as to avoid a candidate they are totally horrified and disgusted by. But maybe you have lots of proof of your claim here? And of course, some portion of the 'left' just won't vote, or will vote for The Green Party's Jill Stein or some other alternative.

Meanwhile, here's a post at Chris Hedges facebook group that might be worth a ponder here:

Please share with all Trump supporters that you know!!!

For ALL of you Trump supporters out there - let's face it. He's NOT going to win. You know your gut is telling you that Hillary Clinton already has this election sewn up, and your gut is right.

Truth be told, he was never a great candidate anyway. Forget about the frat boy humor, the fact that Wikileaks proves that he was Hillary's hand-picked opponent should be more than enough to convince you of that fact - if you don't believe me, read the memo yourself: file:///C:/Users/T12p/Downloads/150407%20Strategy%20on%20GOP%202016ers%20(6).pdf

So now, what to do? You can just throw your vote away by sticking with Trump, OR you can at the very least PERMANENTLY divide the Democratic Party by voting for Jill Stein and the Green Party. If the Green Party gets at least 5% of the vote, they will be eligible for federal funds and will draw many young people especially away from the Democratic Party. If they get 15% of the vote, then they will have earned a spot in all future presidential debates. If you believe as I do that Donald Trump doesn't really have a snowball's chance of winning this "election," then now is the time to vote strategically in order to cripple any chance that Hillary has for re-election in four years. Please think about it. and share if you agree.

Thoughts?

[dohboi]

"the far left would just put Putin in charge"

????

Now you're back to being just completely daft.

Not worth responding to anything else you have to say if you are that clueless.

(It's also not clear what you mean by 'far left' here. There really isn't a 'far left' in the US to mention by any international comparison with other developed democracies. Most of Sanders' positions would be considered centrist and even acceptable to most of the right wing in most other advanced countries--health care being the most obvious example.)

[Sixstrings]

"the far left would just put Putin in charge"

????

Now you're back to being just completely daft.

Not worth responding to anything else you have to say if you are that clueless.

Here's a Rolling Stone article that raises concerns about Jill Stein:

The Case Against Jill Stein
Though it's frustrating for many progressives who long for a viable third party, there are serious questions about Stein's judgement

Stein touted in a press release that she sat at the same table as Putin during a dinner for RT, the Russian government-funded television network, in Moscow last December, two months after Russia started bombing Syria.

In that press release, Stein criticizes U.S. foreign policy in Syria and elsewhere, and acknowledges that in Russia "money runs short for critical needs because of the heavy burden of military spending," but stops short of remarking on Russia's Syrian bombing campaign, abysmal human-rights record or abhorrent treatment of the LGBT community. This, despite the Green Party's a staunch commitment to advocating for human rights around the world. ...

Stein, like her rival Donald Trump, has also refused to release a complete version of her tax returns
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-case-against-jill-stein-w436362

What I don't understand is why liberals on the far left, don't stick up for liberals in other countries?

And, like Trump, the far left repeats the same "RT" like views and angles on things.

I realize that of course, the far left and far right agree on so much, actually. Both are against the "establishment." And I can understand far right people liking Putin, that makes sense, but I really can't understand far left liking Putin.

My hunch: it's very tempting for a small anti establishment party, to accept help where it's offered, without really thinking it through.

[dohboi]

Well, Green parties in other countries, like Germany, are really pretty mainstream.

Stein is polling in the very low single digits here, so bringing her and her party up here pretty much reinforces my claim that there really is no effective left, even if you considered their very reasonable positions to be somehow extreme.

And laying aside predictable smears against and hatchet jobs at third party candidates, with these cases, unlike the main candidates, it really really isn't about the candidates and their personalities. It's whether enough people agree with the general positions of the party to want to support it so that the Green Party can get status as a legitimate party in various states and, ideally, nationally.

No one fools themselves into thinking Stein is actually going to win, so it's really not about her.

And it's very easy to support a Greens and not be a 'spoiler'--if you live in a 'safe' state for one side or the other, which is nearly all of them, really your vote is wasted if you DON'T vote for a third party candidate!

[Plantagenet]

Well, Green parties in other countries, like Germany, are really pretty mainstream.

Stein is polling in the very low single digits here, so bringing her and her party up here pretty much reinforces my claim that there really is no effective left, even if you considered their very reasonable positions to be somehow extreme.

And laying aside predictable smears against and hatchet jobs at third party candidates, with these cases, unlike the main candidates, it really really isn't about the candidates and their personalities. It's whether enough people agree with the general positions of the party to want to support it so that the Green Party can get status as a legitimate party in various states and, ideally, nationally.

No one fools themselves into thinking Stein is actually going to win, so it's really not about her.

And it's very easy to support a Greens and not be a 'spoiler'--if you live in a 'safe' state for one side or the other, which is nearly all of them, really your vote is wasted if you DON'T vote for a third party candidate!

There are real positive reasons to vote for Stein.

1. At this point Stein is the only candidate who is denouncing BOTH Trump's idiocy and Hillary's venality and dishonesty.

2. Stein opposes Obama's illegal foreign wars, which both Trump and Hillary will expand and escalate.

3. Stein opposes Obamacare and supports single-payer.

4. Stein would actually act on the global warming problem, rather than denying it like Trump or putting forward fraudulent sham deals that do nothing to stop global warming such the Paris Accords supported by Obama and Hillary.

AND

5. In many states parties need to attract a certain number of votes to stay on the ballot. The more people who vote for Stein and the Green Party in the 2016 election the better position they will be in for the 2020 election.

CHEERS!

[dohboi]

Point 5 is crucial for people to understand.

Frankly, given that fact, if you live in a non-swing state, you are pretty much wasting your vote if you DON'T vote for a third party candidate (unless, I suppose, if you're actually really super enthusiastic about one of the leading party candidates).

[Sixstrings]

1. At this point Stein is the only candidate who is denouncing BOTH Trump's idiocy and Hillary's venality and dishonesty.

How is she on democracy values though, does she care about democracy?

All I know is that along with a Trump adviser, she was sitting at that RT dinner when Putin gave a speech:

2. Stein opposes Obama's illegal foreign wars, which both Trump and Hillary will expand and escalate.

Right. Jill Stein and Trump would stay silent about dictators abroad, and we wouldn't have any more moral component to our foreign policy, nor promote rule of law / international law, and democracy / constitutional values.

I guess Jill Stein would probably be weak on NATO, and criticize NATO and our allies, and she'd agree with the Kremlin about everything.

If I'm wrong, Plant -- then can you show me anything, where Jill Stein has criticized dictatorships abroad? What has she said about NATO, would she be a good leader of the free world, or would she just criticize NATO. And maybe like Trump, horror of horrors, just stay silent as maybe Russia expands and war starts up in the world.

And democracy, turned back in the world.. maybe the Baltics gone, maybe even Sweden under threat.

Does Jill Stein care about any of that, or is it just easier to be "anti establishment" and the kremlin just happens to be "anti western establishment," too?

EDIT: just to note, I wouldn't criticize that she was on RT and went to a Putin speech with the Trump staffer.. *if only she also said some things on that trip that Putin would NOT want to hear*. Does that distinction make sense?

[dohboi]

At about 14:40 she criticizes Russia's campaign of 'shock and awe.' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr16p-5KPSg

Here, she claims that she didn't bring up human rights issues while she was at the table with Putin because there wasn't an interpreter (apparently unaware that Putin actually does speak English, so, yeah, a bit lame there).
http://www.jill2016.com/jill_stein_russ ... mentalists

But really, if we are going to go much further down this line of discussion, we should start a Jill Stein thread for it.

[dissident]

Neocon Six$ and his crusade for neocon nutjob Hillary. "We came, we saw, he died. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha." This whore and Obama's whole regime needs to face a war crimes tribunal for what they did to Libya alone. They are now in the process of pulling the same Nuremberg Convention busting war crime in Syria.

[Sixstrings]

At about 14:40 she criticizes Russia's campaign of 'shock and awe.' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr16p-5KPSg

Okay, I watched that part. She sounded objective on that part, she deserves credit for that.

Just my impression of things, I think the reason Russia does "shock and awe" is because they have "dumb bombs" and less precise munitions. And, they use a lot of artillery. This is just their style of war -- whereas the West has far more smart munitions, and seeks to minimize civilian casualties.

This difference in war style, matters -- when Trump talks about doing the Russian style, that's not really the American way. Trump says things like, "just bomb the hell out of them."

That's not how the US military, actually works.

Some of the other things Stein says, is like "in a perfect world" kind of thing, but it's not reality. One factor she doesn't seem to address is that it's not just "Russia" and "the US" -- it's a whole region of nations, and world of nations, and they all have their opinions and interests etc.

When the US leads regional coalitions, and world alliances, it's a really tough job -- an analogy would be our congress, and how they can't really do anything perfect because it's so many disparate and competing interests, but they do the best they can.

Just generally, a criticism I'd have of the green party is that they think that if the US completely pulled back and defunded its military, then that somehow means other powers in the world would do the same. That they wouldn't push out, into the power vacuum void. And that's just not realistic.

But really, if we are going to go much further down this line of discussion, we should start a Jill Stein thread for it.

That's a good idea -- start a stein thread for people to learn more about her.

She's not quite as bad as I thought she may be (the Trump advisers sounded worse from what I read, like totally pro Kremlin), but I'd need to see more about her.

Certainly, Bernie Sanders was 100% ESTABLISHMENT view on foreign policy, from anything I ever saw from him. Sanders is a mature leftist, and wise -- when he was much younger, that's when he was in the USSR on Russia trips.

[Subjectivist]

I think Stein has some good positions, but everyone knows she hasn't got a prayer of winnng.