[Plastic_Green]

I was in Costa Rica for 10 days because I wanted to see the rain forest before airplane travel becomes the province of the super rich again. It was interesting thinking of what might happen there post peak. They get all their electricity from hydro pretty much, and have capacity to export electricity. All the villages are electrified, so that is stable. They also have clean water, although I don't know how much of that is pumped with oil. The society is fairly socialist, and has more cooperative tendencies than the USA. In terms of transport, 25% own cars now, but they have an extensive bus system, and many people have horses, bikes, and oxen. Agriculture is dominated by coffee and ornamental plants for export. Post peak, they could wipe that out and grow food for local consumption and biodiesel production to keep trucks and buses running, even if cars are no longer useful. Although yields will drop as fertilizers and pesticides dry up, the huge proportion of land devoted to export might compensate.

But...they may not be able to afford any oil once the price gets high enough. Also, population is growing at 2.5% a year. The biggest Achilles heel might be the possibility of massive waves of refugees from the north or south. They have no standing army to repel refugees, and the terrain would be difficult to patrol and shut down. Overall, prospects in Costa Rica seem better than in the USA, since they have a more agrarian lifestyle, and an electrical grid immune to fossil fuel shortage. Also, it is really beautiful there! Go while you can.

[pea-jay]

I was there about 10 years ago and loved it. Costa Rica definately has long term survival potential if they can keep internal and external population growth to a minimum. Costa Rica allows foreign ownership of property, and prices are lower there. The eastern (caribbean) area is the least populated portion while the western (Pacific) portion is more settled. Most folks however, live in the central highlands.

I would consider CR an option in a theoretical sense, though Panama actually appeals to me slightly more.

[MarioPro]

Feel free to visit it again:

MarioPro

[skateari]

My family bought 3.5acres in Costa Rica recently - not a lot of land, but we hope to make use of nearly all the land for organic gardening, fruit/nuts, chickens/goats/ducks/rabbits, we are thinking about a fishpond as well. There are adjacent properties that have not been sold that we can purchase for expansion if all goes well.

We hope to incorporate Permaculture pracitices into the property, including water catchment, storage, conserving water and energy use in the home (using energy/water saving applicanes when availible). Since we are in such a mild climate, we dont need to think too much about heating or cooling, but we are going to have a wood stove for cold nights and a lot of cross ventilation with window placement. We will use a metal tin roof, square hip roof. I am drawing the blueprints for the home right now; its a 40X40' building with the first floor consisiting of CMU block wall construction including garage/storage/guest units and patio. Collumns facing the front of the house with an inclosed patio both downstairs and upstairs; which all face the front of the proparty (towards the driveway, street and the downsloping lot). I will post a basic plot plan on here for your guys reference, and helping me plan this farm.

It is going to be a large undertaking and the tree planting/planning and garden construction will begin ASAP while the house takes form. First thing to do is to plan the tree placement; which will include:

Nuts: (# of Trees we have in mind)
-Almond (5)
-Cashew (5)
-Mac Nuts (10+)
-Coffee (20)
-Walnuts

Fruit: (# of trees we have in mind)
-Oranges (10-15)
-Limes (5)
-Tangerines (5)
-Grapefruit (5)
-Bannana (20+)
-Avacado (5)
-Mango (Less then 5)
-Papaya (20+)
-Lychee (5)
-Dwarf Coconut (5-10)
-Watermellons

?-Pears (not sure if suitable to climate)
?-Cherrys (not sure if suitable to climate)
?-Peachs (not sure if suitable to climate)

Fruit Bearing bushes:
-Guava
-Lemons
-Lilikoi
-Blackberrys (not sure if suitable to climate..?)
-Passion Fruit

We are planning to have 300+ fruit/nut trees in or Orchard, but first thing I want to plant at least 100. We have been thinking of planting all the trees in a 20' peremeter around the property, but since I have been thinking of having just one orchard area. Check out the drawing, and offer any advice/suggestions:

The layout if we chose to have 1, large orchard:


And for our garden, we hope to have at least 20, 5'X10' CMU raised beds in within the first few months. We will have a shaded area, along with a greenhouse in due time.

We are planning to keep goats, chickens, ducks, and rabbits on the property. We are going to start of with chickens and goats first, but over time will add more breeds and more along to ducks/rabbits.

Anyone want to give some suggestions on layout? Any ideas that you would put in your Post Peak survival property? Any help would be great. Thanks

[Heineken]

Do you know anything about keeping goats? I once considered doing that, but I read a book about it and was persuaded it was too expensive and too difficult for me to pursue.

Be mindful that chickens and goats can do a number on fragile tropical soils, esp. when you have such a limited amount of land. All that other activity you have planned will also exact a toll.

I would think you'd have a lot of insect pressure in Costa Rica. Consider how your crops will live with all those bugs.

Overall, I think your plans are too ambitious. Start small and gradually add projects or you will end up wasting a lot of money and having many disappointing failures. Read as much as you can about a project before you start on one.

[Heineken]

Dairy goats require quite a lot of good-quality hay---something like a ton or two per year. You can't just turn them loose to eat whatever, or they may eat toxic plants and get sick or die, and they won't make good milk. And I would not even consider owning goats unless I had access to proper veterinary care for them and could readily afford it.

Even keeping chickens requires some know-how.

[skateari]

Thanks guys. As far as the land goes; its pasture land overgrown with about a foot of grass, so I figure the goats could help clear it up a bit. If they cannot live on the grass, I could always buy hay thats not a problem. I plan to do much more reading on the subject before the move, but I have gained quite a bit of info on goat/chicken raising already, and I do think I will be able to do it. We have a lot of pasture land and a lot of grass, and I think they will do just fine.. the only way to learn is to try I guess.

Yes, we are planning to use composting toilets and plan to keep as much organic compost on our land as we can. A greywater system will filter water into a holding pond which will be used to irrigate the orchard. The ducks will also be able to use the pond I figure. Not to sure if thats the pond I will want to raise fish in, is this safe?

The property has an amazing view - I will post pictures as soon as I can get them on my computer. I think I will update this thread with pictures as the projects move along.. there will be quite a few of them. You will really enjoy the pictures when they are posted the property is beautiful.

And as far as the security statement and Nicaragua.. nobody will be envious because nobody will know about it. Its quite remote - you will see when the pictures are posted. Its in a gated ranch with 24 hour secuirty. Its miles from any town and I really doubt its in serious danger.. but I will see what the guns laws are like down there, because security is a concern.. but I dont know what I should do until I start living there.

[Heineken]

Dairy goats require quite a lot of good-quality hay---something like a ton or two per year.

Actually they are browsers by nature, like deer. They will eat hay if that's what they are fed, and it's fine, but they prefer other plants to grass. One reason I decided to keep goats rather than a cow is that they aren't as specific in their dietary requirements as cattle. I haven't got proper housing for a goat yet, so I haven't acquired any, but I plan to do so next year. There is a goat thread here with some good information from people who already have goats, and there are many good books on the subject.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that keeping animals of any kind should be undertaken casually, so I apologize if that's how my post came across. I have kept chickens on and off for 7 years and I have 60 right now. It does require some knowledge and preparation, but I think overall they are fairly easy to keep as far as livestock go - that is, relatively speaking.

Skateari, I would love to see a photo of your land sometime!

No, I certainly didn't take your post that way, shanny. What I said was just thrown out for general consideration by whomever.

All I know about goat keeping is what I read in the Storey publication on the subject. That book makes the point that goats have to be contained by high, solid fences and can't be allowed to eat whatever they want, or they'll eat what they shouldn't (toxic plants). I have no idea if this is actually true, but the author of the book is an experienced goat keeper.

I agree with you that chickens are relatively simple---still, they require a fair amount of work and commitment (I also keep 'em). (60 chickens is a pretty big operation by my standards!)

Costa Rica sounds lovely---I'm envious.

[Gary]

This sounds like a very do-able effort!

I'm not familiar with what grows best in Costa Rica. Have you found info about what grows well there naturally? What kinds of fruit, nuts, veggies, and animals do well there?

Are there any folks near your land who could be helpful as you get the project going? Good neighbors with some knowledge and experience would be a great help.

David Holmgren has a good view of his small farmstead "Melliodora" on his website. If I recall correctly it might be somewhere around the size of your property in Costa Rica. Is your design based on looking over permaculture ventures others have done? It looks like a good start.

Perennial crops are sure an important element in permaculture. Annuals can be planted alongside these in some cases.

I wish you the best! Keep us posted!

[Heineken]

Thanks guys. As far as the land goes; its pasture land overgrown with about a foot of grass, so I figure the goats could help clear it up a bit. If they cannot live on the grass, I could always buy hay thats not a problem. I plan to do much more reading on the subject before the move, but I have gained quite a bit of info on goat/chicken raising already, and I do think I will be able to do it. We have a lot of pasture land and a lot of grass, and I think they will do just fine.. the only way to learn is to try I guess.

Yes, we are planning to use composting toilets and plan to keep as much organic compost on our land as we can. A greywater system will filter water into a holding pond which will be used to irrigate the orchard. The ducks will also be able to use the pond I figure. Not to sure if thats the pond I will want to raise fish in, is this safe?

The property has an amazing view - I will post pictures as soon as I can get them on my computer. I think I will update this thread with pictures as the projects move along.. there will be quite a few of them. You will really enjoy the pictures when they are posted the property is beautiful.

And as far as the security statement and Nicaragua.. nobody will be envious because nobody will know about it. Its quite remote - you will see when the pictures are posted. Its in a gated ranch with 24 hour secuirty. Its miles from any town and I really doubt its in serious danger.. but I will see what the guns laws are like down there, because security is a concern.. but I dont know what I should do until I start living there.

Just curious, sketeari---how does one move to Costa Rica? Do you have friends or relatives there helping you with this transition? Have you spent a lot of time there already getting to know the place? Where are you moving from? How are you moving your possessions there, or do you plan to travel really light? What sort of residency status will you have there? I'm overwhelmed by the potential tactical issues.

[skateari]

The Animals:

Insects and bugs are a problem in Costa Rica.. I hope to get some ducks soon after the chickens and goats. I will be fencing the Garden to keep the animals out instead of fencing them in (however there will be a fenced area for the animals to use if need be). I hope to let the ducks in the garden every day to keep the bug problem down, and have quite a few good organic bug-killing recepies. I wont know what it is like until I get there, but I feel with enough organic compost and the ducks, it should not be too big a problem, and if so I can use many of the herbs in the herb area of the garden to make something that would work.

As far as the Goats/Chickens.. I am starting small. I may get only 2 goats first when I get there, but if I can get 4-6 soon enough I will go with that. I have time to milk them every day (or twice a day) and neighbors that will help (after giving them the extra milk/eggs I have every so often).

After a few months however I want to get some meet goats going as well, and hope to have both a seperate meat herd of both chickens and goats (I will end up using under producing animals or animals that have 'passed their peaks', if I can not get meat animals down there).

I dont know what kind of grass is growing on the lot atm, or what weeds might be in there, or what harmful plants.. but I hope to find out and plant some food for the goats accordingly. Otherwise I could be growing some of the grain/weeds/plants as goat food in extra gardening areas.

I hope to build a 10X20 building seperated in half giving each the chickens (12) and goats (2-6) 100sq feet each. The goats will have a manger built a certain way (I have plans) that keep most of the food in the manger and not on the floor (it includes having the goats use a step, bend their necks downwards between 2X4's angled at around 65%. This way if they tilt their heads back and out to move the food on the floor, they will hit their head and the food will fall back into the manger. I have heard it works great). The goat area will also feature a milking bench/cleaning area.

I hope to have the goats foraging and eating the food I grow, but I know I will end up paying for around half their food.

I am hoping to build the 20 CMU raised beds only because I will be able to get the blocks cheaper while my house is being built (which is also using block walls). I may or may not use all of them at first, but I will have the time and materials to do it so I figured what a better time then now. I should also have some extra soil after plowing in the driveway and using the back ho on the lot to even some ground - which I can mix with compost for the raised beds

[skateari]

Just a few quick questions on goats: have any of you grown your own goat food? If a pasture is grassed and has been used for cattle grazing would it be safe to say it would be suitable for goat grazing? Can you include grass from the pasture in a milking-goats diet?

[skateari]

Just a few quick questions on goats: have any of you grown your own goat food? If a pasture is grassed and has been used for cattle grazing would it be safe to say it would be suitable for goat grazing? Can you include grass from the pasture in a milking-goats diet?

[TheTurtle]

Good luck to you!
The world needs more Anarco-Ecological Buddhist governments.

Peace.

[TheTurtle]

Thanks, but it's an AnarcoEcological government. Religion and state should be separated.

Right you are. I meant to say that the world needs more AnarcoEcological Buddhist politicians. Sorry.
But still, good luck to you.

[Mojo07]

Zensui, you chose a good place in Costa Rica. I'm visiting there in December. BTW, what is TPTB?

[TheTurtle]

BTW, what is TPTB?

The Powers That Be. TPTB are those who run the world. Or maybe just the ones who we think run the world.

[NTBKtrader]

What I don't understand is those who tend to advocate pro-pussyism also advocate evolutionary survival. In the battle of Athens vs Sparta..who won.