[Leanan]

I'm watching Florida Gov. Jeb Bush's press conference now. One reporter said many people were furious over the widespread gas shortages, and asked Bush what he was going to do about it. (Nothing.)

But I guess that's a warning. When the gas runs out, the politicians will be blamed.

[KiddieKorral]

Wow, that really tells you something about the sheeple. I mean, I'm no fan of Jebbie, but how can people think he has anything to do with the gas shortages?

[Soft_Landing]

Perhaps a Flawda local can fill me in here, but wasn't there some sort of tax amnesty on gas last month. I read something about how this contributed to the shortage of gas... If that's the case, surely it lays the blame for increase demand of gas squarely at the feet of Gov. Bush.

I hope US readers can appreciate the effort I went to to substitute 'gas' for petrol in that paragragh....

[KiddieKorral]

Yeah, there was a temporary 8-cent fuel tax cut last month, but it ended last week.

[KiddieKorral]

I just heard that gas was being shipped to Tampa, Jacksonville, and Ft. Everglades, to be trucked in ASAP. Of course, with all the trees that will be down, it won't get here for a while.

[Leanan]

In ancient Rome, they stopped their population from rioting by keeping them provided with "bread and circuses." I guess today it's gas and electricity to mollify the masses...

[Soft_Landing]

Saddam was not likely to cut off supply. It would be cutting off his nose to spite his face. He was dependent on oil sales to support his country.

This is a popular belief, but I believe it it mistaken.

For more information, I recommend “Strategic Energy Policy Challenges for the 21st Century”, by James Baker Institute.

This report claims that Saddam had expressed willingness to use oil supply as a weapon, and had actually dropped out of the oil for food program temporarily to explore the consequences.

Here are some selected quotes:

Strong economic growth across the globe and new global demands for more energy have meant the end of sustained surplus capacity in hydrocarbon fuels and the beginning of capacity limitations.

The resulting tight markets have increased U.S. and global vulnerability to disruption and provided adversaries undue potential influence over the price of oil. Iraq has become a key "swing" producer, posing a difficult situation for the U.S. government.

Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export program to manipulate oil markets. This would display his personal power, enhance his image as a "Pan Arab" leader supporting the Palestinians against Israel, and pressure others for a lifting of economic sanctions against his regime.

Over the past year, Iraq has effectively become a swing producer, turning its taps on and off when it has felt such action was in its strategic interest to do so.

More oil could likely be brought into the market place in the coming years if oil-field development could be enhanced by participation of U.S. companies in countries where such investments are currently banned, particularly in Libya where frozen U.S. assets remain in limbo. Resources are large and, with major contributions of foreign investment capital, large additions to production rates could be accrued in the coming two to three years.

[The report recommends that the administration] Investigate whether any changes to U.S. policy would quickly facilitate higher exports of oil from the Caspian Basin region.

In general, for strategic reasons related to U.S.-Russian relations, the United States might want to move the Caspian region into a zone of cooperation with Russia, instead of a zone of competition or confrontation. (It might seek this, for example, in order to jointly counter the rise of radical, Islamic militant elements in the region).

Keep in mind this report was handed up in April of 2001, five months before september 11.

I do believe Newbie's hypothetical is accurate. Just as Iran is difficult to deal with now, Iraq would have been just as complicated. Saddam would certainly have demanded the removal of sanctions, and, if the US conceded to this demand, this would show the US's main strategic weakness to all and sundry - dependence upon foreign oil. This would pose a serious threat to the US dollar. Further, other regimes such as Iran or Lybia would presumably have become more boldly anti-American.

I do believe that the US had to go into Iraq by the time Bush got into power. The preferred alternative would have been to remove sanctions from Saddam early in the 90's. I think it's called diplomacy... Anyway, once that didn't happen, things were never going to have a happy ending.

[Soft_Landing]

Bugger!

This last post was supposed to go into the "Iraq Offline Again" thread...

That will teach me for trying to respond to too many threads at one (while going off for coffee).

Can a moderator move this post over? Thanks.

[Guest]

It's clear to me now that the next POTUS will be Jeb Bush.

The corporations (the real power in the US) will always purchase the candidate that they select as most likely to further their interests, and why buy an imitation (BushLite) when the real thing is so cheap.

One of the other things that struck me about this election is that there isn't a two way divide in this country, there is a THREE way (did I just say 3Way ) divide between the Reps, the Demos and the INDEPENDENTS. From my tracking roughly a third of registered voters refused to select either of the two parties on their registration cards.

Now add the inevitability of another Al Queda-vitch attack (wouldn't want to be living in Ohio the next few years) and when that happens the country will move closer towards fascism. And lets be clear here, as gg3 has clearly outlined, there is no 'moral' high ground here ... the only choices are between freedom and the right-wing version of fascism or, with the Democrats, you'll get the order of left-wing fascism to chew on.

and you wonder why Kerry lost It's because as 'voters' (and I used the term lightly) we were given a choice between 2 antichrists, both of whom clearly stated their intentions of expanding Iraq into a global conflict.

Here is another factoid to chew on ... the POTUS Curse. Since the early 1800's every US President elected on a 20 year cycle has died in office (with the exception of Reagan who was only shot). Dubya is next in line.

HA ! I know what a lot of you are thinking, but you should be real careful about what you wish for, because if you think Shrub is a threat to world peace now, what do you think the minions of the Red states would do with good old GW as their own personal martyr ?

And now add the PeakOil omens to this stew. Clear thinkers will realize that long before we see the die-off and the martial law and such, we will see a whole slew of problems, both large and small that will point the way towards the end of oil. Some of them, like $50+ oil we are seeing already. Others like widespread unemployment and rampant inflation or economic collapse are waiting right in the wings.

Now take you average ignorant red-stater, take away his job, raise the price of heat, fuel and food, and then, on top of all that, take away their real American Idol, GW Bush.

Sure, it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people but you might want to think about why so many people are bringing up the CW (Civil War II) topic in the last week.

It's about to get real messy boys and girls.

[endoftheage]

I appreciate your optimism that there'll BE an election in 2008, Guest. Wish I shared it....

[pepper2000]

Whoa there.

First off, curses are, well, a bit sketchy. Bush may or may not survive the term; I won't call any predictions on that. But the "curse" is probably nothing more than an interesting coincidence.

According to Wikipedia, the word "fascism", which is somewhat vague, can refer to a state with one of the four following properties:

- exalts up nation and sometimes race above the individual,
- uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
- engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
- espouses of nationalism and sometimes racism or ethnic nationalism.

Despite claims to the contrary, these things are not going on today.

There's a lot to be concerned about today, I agree, but we have to be careful to differentiate between real and present dangers and unfounded hysterics.

[Guest]

I've been persuing Dominionist message boards such as the rapture ready message board and reading much of their literature. Quite disturbing.

These people honestly believe that America's current problems, such as the bad economy, are a result of the liberals handing the country over to the gays, the abortionists, and the blacks - although they use the code word, "multiculturists."

Once they've done away with the gays and the economy still keeps getting worse, do you think they're going to mellow out? Not at all. They will interpret the worsening state of the economy and the ever rising price of oil as a sign from God that they have not yet succeded in making this country "Godly" again.

So they're just going to keep getting nutier and more violent.

Many of these people believe that God put plenty of oil in the earth and that so long as we have faith, there will always be more there. (Much like the Abiotic idiots).

When it becomes apparent that we are "running out," do you think they will accept that as discernable reality or do you think they're going to react like a bunch of vengeful freaks?

They will interpret the decline in production, rise in price as a sign that we should not listen to those naysayers (liberals?) who claim we may be "running out."

If we get rid of the people who claim we're running out of the stuff, that will prove to God that we have faith in his ability to provide for us!

If you think these people are beyond killing whoever they think they must kill to keep God happy, chew on this: in 2002, the Texas GOP proposed a law whereby a person who attacks (even kills) a gay person as a result of their faith or religious beliefs would be immune from civil and criminal prosecution.

Such a law could easily be extened to people who kill people who preach against creationism - which everybody here is actively doing, even if you don't realize it.

Believe oil is a fossil fuel? That means you are denying creationsim, which means you're not with Jesus. And if you're not with Jesus, you're with the Antichrist. And if we want to make sure Jesus takes us in the rapture, we have to make sure we prove we follow him and not the Antichrist. What better, bolder way to prove that than killing the people who preach non-biblical doctrine that encourages people not to maintain their faith in God's ability to supply them with resources?

Guest 2007

[Guest]

Whoa there.

First off, curses are, well, a bit sketchy. Bush may or may not survive the term; I won't call any predictions on that. But the "curse" is probably nothing more than an interesting coincidence.

According to Wikipedia, the word "fascism", which is somewhat vague, can refer to a state with one of the four following properties:

- exalts up nation and sometimes race above the individual,
- uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
- engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
- espouses of nationalism and sometimes racism or ethnic nationalism.

Despite claims to the contrary, these things are not going on today.
.

You're being sarcastic, right?

[Matrim]

That means you are denying creationsim, which means you're not with Jesus.

Thats not entirely true/
There is a group of folks who call themselves evolutionary creationists. They get to believe in evolution and Jesus. Such is the key to happiness

[skateari]

According to Wikipedia, the word "fascism", which is somewhat vague, can refer to a state with one of the four following properties:

- exalts up nation and sometimes race above the individual,
- uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
- engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
- espouses of nationalism and sometimes racism or ethnic nationalism.

Despite claims to the contrary, these things are not going on today.

I hope your not being serious..

The current running of our government is placing a a huge debt and burden on the population, if the people knew the real reason behind it, and the truth, then they would not support this government any longer. Without the violence and modern techniques of propaganda you describe, then the people would have access to the truth, and it would affect the way they feel about their government. Altering and destroying evidence, and suppressing the truth is what a fascist regime is all about. You will find it all over the USA, accept the fact that it is quite successful in brainwashing average citizens. It appears it has worked on you as well.

1 out of 4?? This should be easy

- exalts up nation and sometimes race above the individual,

The current Bush Administration has placed a large and fatal burden on the average American people. This burden is the US debt, which our government knows perfectly well that it wont be able to be payed off, meaning financial ruin for this country. This burden is placed on the american population from those in power, for their benefit. Oil companies and construction companies are making a killing in Iraq, these companies are owned or invested in by high members in the American government. This money would not be possible if our debt was not paying for it. Our country is placing ourselves in debt, which the average american population is going to have to face its wrath. All this money is diverted (from our social security, and creating a large debt) into the war in Iraq, and making some members in our government a lot of money.

- uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,

This can be seen all around us, that is if you look in the right places. However the CIA does quite a good job about keeping people quiet, so its impossible to learn of such from traditional new sources. There has been a long history of CIA using violence to suppress political opposition, including the ruining lives of people who were in search of the truth, or trying to spread the truth. There have been many documented cases of this, suspicious deaths, CIA cover ups. Even ABC, one of our nations largest media outlets is owned by the CIA, it was bought over after attempts to uncover the truth behind CIA involvement in some matters. Violence has so far been used to sustain our culture, at the sake of others. Propaganda you can see everywhere, the whole war on terror is government propaganda to back the war and spread fear and hate towards a region and culture (middle easterns). Propaganda includes 9/11, which was used to provoke fear in the population in order to get backing for war. Propaganda has been seen on the airways, as I have mentioned the CIA owns ABC, and all its content can be seen as propaganda. Our government relies on this propaganda in order to protect the truth. The CIA has used tactics to shut down people who could uncover the truth, and any attempt to make public of this information will most likely result in your demise from the CIA, this has been proven in many cases, I suggest you read the book "Crossing the Rubicon" for more examples of this. The CIA has taken part in bankrupting the Russian economy, stole programs from the Canadians and have killed or 'silenced' many who try to uncover the corrupt workings of the US government. This type of activity can be compared to the secrete police and propaganda used to influence war on the German population.

- engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and

Unloading a trillion dollar debt on your people is suicide. All this is being payed by the US's average population to pay for the rich and greedy people in power. I'm not going to go into this one really, social regimentation is obvious and severe economic problems are resulting as well. The US is writing a death citizens for the middle class americans, who are the majority. They are robbing the future and wealth of the middle class, and insuring their fate, all for their own personal agenda (war, oil, investments, etc.). Our leaders in government are all tied together in money deals, CIA works and money launderings. Its the foundation of the American economy, its what has driven us to this point in peak oil, it is the reason we face such a hard landing. Because the leaders in our government are greedy SOB's and only interested in their own personal means. The major corporations chose what president to support, which means what president shows up on our ballot, the corporations who are interested in their billion dollar investments, not the overall well being of our society, are in control. Not the people.

- espouses of nationalism and sometimes racism or ethnic nationalism.

By settuping up a terrorist attack, with involvment from the CIA, and their oversea supporters (Pakastan's ISI), they planned and were the masterminds behind the attack. Bin Ladin my be looked at as Agent for our government, if you want to be called a conspiracy theorist. But the fact remains that our government knew, if didn't plan the 9/11 attacks, and let them happen, with effort to do so. They wanted it to happen, they wanted the American population to be faced with fear and make irrational decisions; which meant putting their troops in the middle east and engaging in unnecessary warfare. This was a crucial part of the Bush Administrations energy policy secure oil supply at any means. The 'Blood for Oil' campaign would never have support if the majority of Americans knew the truth behind it. Racism and ethnic nationalism.. Okay, by either planning, or allowing attacks like these obviously serve one purpose; to gain support for the future wars ahead. It was in their own interests to provoke fear/hate against the middle eastern population. It could be observed by hate crimes afterwards towards the US Muslim population that the trick worked. We now were at war against "terrorism", a group of people who hide in the mountains, hate freedom, and are conveniently located on the worlds most precious oil resources. How ironic?

After examining the current state of the US's government, its not hard to conclude that it is indeed a fascist regime, in every sort of way. The fact of undercover operations to create lies, and propaganda is one thing. Having a government operation suppressing the truth and opposition is also one thing. Commiting millions of middle class americans to a life of debt and financial ruin for the sake of your own well being is also one thing. Creating a plot to create a false sense of fear and hate towards a group of people is also one thing. What do these four things equal up to? A government about as corrupt as the Nazis, a government which has killed thousands of its own lives for war means, and ruined a million other lives from the financial ruin that will come when this system can no longer support itself or is exposed. With the way the CIA is running things, the truth being exposed may never happen.

[Specop_007]

Skateari
Proof proof proof. You make as many claims as the next fool. Seperate yourself.

[gg3]

Here's one piece I find really disturbing.
http://archive.salon.com/politics/featu ... print.html

At the 2000 election in FLorida, a group of GOP operatives descended upon the election office and conducted what amounted to a riot. Government officials were so intimidated that they shut down the recount. Admittedly the source for the article above is left-leaning, but there was plenty about this on the mainstream newswires, including pictures of the type shown in the article above. (I got lazy and pulled up a first-page citation on my search; keep looking and you'll find the mainstream citations also.)

Now pardon my rhetoric, folks, but there is no other word for this than "brown-shirt tactics."

Also the recent instances of denying international treaty rights to prisoners, suspending habeas corpus, etc., all make for a very disurbing set of legal precedents.

And the tendency toward scapegoating: today gays & gynecologists, and perhaps later, the "less than acceptably pious." Scapegoating is a favored tactic of demagogues everywhere.

And the go-it-alone military policy.

But before we go on to overdraw the parallels, consider an alternative. "Friendly fascism," of the type described by Bertram Gross in his book by that title. It would not need to use heavy-handed means on a large scale (though perhaps on a small scale); it would merely consolidate power to the degree that it required, and then proceed along its merry way.

Re. Jeb Bush: At first I thought, "no way in hell," i.e. even those who are full-on supporters of GW Bush would in no way go for something that starts to look more like a monarchic dynasty. However the scenario of "what happens if GW Bush dies in office," particularly if he dies in a tragic way (something no sane person would wish for, even those who are furious about his getting a second term), could indeed produce that outcome. Now IMHO, Jeb could make a good Senator from Florida, he seems to have the talents and capabilities; and like the Kennedys before him, that would be an accepted route into a national role. But absent some kind of bizarre tragedy, Americans do not like to have serial presidents with the same last name.

And if I'm wrong, we're really really screwed.

[Dimitrivsky]

My guess is that the next US President will be Arnold Schwarzenegger...

That would be a laugh!

[tmazanec1]

Would have to amend the Constitution to get Ahnold.

[Jesus]

Skateari
Proof proof proof. You make as many claims as the next fool.

Physician, heal thyself