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US Gasoline Tax

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby MrBill » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 05:58:41

Tyler_JC wrote:*Warning, I do not reach a conclusion in this post. I have merely thrown some data together for analysis*

I often hear Europeans on this forum claim that higher gasoline prices do not effect them because they are already paying $4, $5, or even $6 per gallon.

The rise in gasoline prices from $2/gallon to $6/gallon did not happen overnight in Europe. Petrol taxes were raised slowly over the course of many years in many European countries. This gave time for consumers and businesses to adjust to the new fuel costs. I know that the UK used a mechanism called the "Fuel Price Escalator" which automatically increased fuel taxes in order to rise the cost of petrol by ~5% more than the rate of inflation from 1993 to 2000. This allowed consumers to adjust to gradually increasing prices rather than be forced to deal with a sudden, massive price upswing.

A small shortfall in gasoline production would lead to dramatically higher prices in the matters of days, not years. The UK's average gasoline prices could rise 50% and this would be equal to a 100% rise in price for American consumers.

OK, so the % increase in cost to fill up one's tank would be higher in the United States than in the UK.

But what about the cost per mile?

Image

As this chart clearly shows, European cars get better gas mileage than American cars. In fact, one could argue that their cars are twice as efficient as American cars.

Twice the cost of fuel and twice the fuel economy...The price per mile is the same!

But here's the real kicker that people keep forgetting. Europeans pay high gas taxes. This is money that European governments collect to spend on services.

Any increase in gasoline prices in the USA means that more money goes to OPEC's dictators. Europe's inflated gas prices reflect a redistribution of wealth from gas-consumers to friendly governments rather than unfriendly ones.

For whatever reason, I'm unable to find the actual % of European tax revenue which can be attributed to fuel taxes, but I know that they make up between %5 and 10% of total revenue.

US state and federal gas taxes bring in ~$60 billion a year.

The UK's fuel tax brings in nearly ~$45 billion a year.

So the US collects only a third more in taxes despite consuming nearly 11x as much oil.

If the US was able to create a tax mechanism simillar to the British model, the budget deficit would vanish tomorrow. (assuming a sudden doubling of gas prices didn't crash the consumer economy, which it might).

Just something to think about...


An excellent post! Thanks. Many of my same ideas. It does put US deficits in perspective vis a vie EU deficits for example.

As you say, it takes time to adjust, but motorists do adjust. Despite having some of the best public transport in the world, Europeans still regularly clog their autobahns with traffic and commuters. Despite being able to ship by rail, LKWs still crowd the roads.

It is all about cost of transport versus the economics of personal convenience.

In this sense oil prices are not nearly high enough. We need $120 per barrel crude (in real terms) to ration demand not less expensive oil that fuels consumption.

Not to mention ridiculously low airplane fares. They do not even cover the airline's cost of capital in the long-run never mind the cost to the environment in CO2 emissions.
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Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby MrBill » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 06:14:23

Peepers wrote:Here's a question -- at what level would gasoline taxes begin to affect consumption. I've heard some argue here that gas taxes won't affect consumption. I disagree with that. Europe and Japan instituted higher gas taxes several decades ago to reduce demand and pay for a variety of programs. It worked. Each uses far less oil per capita than the low-tax USA. Are the demand/price curves the same for Americans as they are for others?


No. Quoting off the top of my head the energy/oil input per unit of GDP output is (roughly) as follows.

USA = 100% (G7/OECD average)*
Germany = 75-80%
Japan = 67%
China = 400% (they hope to cut this to 200% while doubling output)

So you can see that at any price it pays to cut fuel costs.

You can argue all you want about Canada/USA/Australia being big countries and therefore using more fuel, but that leaves aside recreational driving and 'choosing' to live further from work, for example. That is clearly discretional spending and is influenced by consumption taxes.

But the problem is also when governments use carbon taxes as general operating revenue and not necessarily to fund alternative modes of transport. Like states using tobacco settlements to fund ongoing public spending as opposed to funding healthcare. It becomes just another tax grab, but does not promote the greater public good (i.e. creating public transport alternatives to get commuters out of their cars).

*Japan, Germany, USA were based on G7 averages, while China is based on OECD averages. Sorry I do not have any better numbers. Please correct me if you find them. Thanks.
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Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby DarkDawg » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 15:09:04

It becomes just another tax grab, but does not promote the greater public good (i.e. creating public transport alternatives to get commuters out of their cars).


Agreed.

If the politicians in the U.S. could get their collective heads out of their asses and just go ahead and raise gas taxes - which just won't happen - it would obviously be the right thing to do. You don't need to convince the PO crowd, that's easy! Try convincing your local "representative." That's another story.

Reappropriating those taxes toward more public transportation, commuter rails, and renewable energy initiatives is an even harder sell because of the corporate interests that run our government, each with their hand in the pot. Oh, and of course because the Lear jetin', Nascar-lovin' pick-up truckin', Hummer limo-ridin' way of life is not negotiable, remember?
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Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby Euric » Tue 03 Apr 2007, 23:40:31

miraculix wrote:oh brother
you must be one of those what they refer to as Besser Wessis in East Germany
There are upward to 500 million people that still use the imperial system and the mayority of the persons posting here are quite comfortable with it
we talk about oil in terms of barrels for instance. Do you imply we change that to hecto litre as well?

anyway, this all but a waste of time smarty pants

lets focus on the real issues at hand shall we?


I don't know where you come up with 500 million. There are only 300 million in the US. The population of the US is <5% of the total world population. Even with that, there are significant businesses and industries that use modern SI measurements. Those who claim to be comfortable with fuddy-duddy measurements also tend to be less educated and when tested don't know one unit from the other. Sort of explains why Americans score low on intelligence tests when compared to other nations.

The real way to measure oil is by mass in kilograms or tonnes (=megagrams), as the Chinese do. When you use volume the amount of oil you get is more or less then what you may think depending on the temperature.

It seems though that the US effort to avoid metrication is playing a major part in the impoverisation of the American people. Send the high paying manufacturing jobs to countries where the populations are comfortable with metric units and let the Americans enjoy their dinosaur measurements while waiting in the soup kitchen line.
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Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby miraculix » Fri 06 Apr 2007, 18:41:26

euric, you've just proved my point with your latest post...

Now you truly outed yourself as Doctor Know-it-all.

Even within the "metricized" countries Canada and the UK, people still think in foot, inches, mile, gallon, ounce.

Even though construction docs in Canada display m, cm etc. the guys in the field still use imperial units, for instance.

Just combine all those people and you get close to that 1/2 mil mark.

Anyway, as far as oil units are concerned you've just shot your own foot buddy.

You want EUR/ltr. Last time I checked, a liter is a volumetric unit.

Which one is it now, volume or weight?

Granted the imperial system is a clusterfuck, but it doesn't have any bearing on the intelligence of the populace using it.

The constant bickering over the imperial system is not improving the quality of the debate, but what gets my blood pressure up are such dumb ass comments such as that Americans score lower on intelligence tests because of their units of measurements.

Give me a break!

Doesn't make one iota of difference dawg. We were talking taxes here.
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Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby Twilight » Fri 06 Apr 2007, 19:05:53

I use metric measurements in everyday life, but imperial is useful for international comparison. Think mpg, all over the world. In Europe, it's l/100km. That's great if you're discussing fuel efficiency in Europe. That's not very useful when discussing it with the rest of the planet. That's why you almost always get mpg quoted in brackets even in local advertising.

Similarly if I said I was paying 93.9p/l for unleaded. That doesn't tell anyone anything outside of the UK. But if I said $7 per gallon, suddenly everyone understands.

I'm willing to set aside petty nationalism to use whatever units get my point across. If it means doing a quick conversion, so what, my few seconds are cheap.
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Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Fri 06 Apr 2007, 21:26:22

I buy my shampoo by the 700ml container or 23.7ounces if you want to look at it that way.

The shampoo is produced in Ohio by an American owned and operated company.

The product is sold to both Americans and foreigners.

I understand that a litter is roughly equal to a quart and for the most part, that's all I need to understand.

I don't think that people in other countries are unwilling to purchase products that measure out to 238ml instead of the nice, round 8 ounces. If I'm willing to buy a 23.7oz produce, surely Europeans are willing to buy 238ml products.

So can't we just drop it and talk about "gasoline taxes and consumption"?
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Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby Twilight » Sat 07 Apr 2007, 01:13:26

Returning to the topic, one problem I could imagine happening is governments coming under pressure to reduce fuel taxes once prices bring real pain to consumers. This won't be much of an issue in the US, taxes are so low the government couldn't offset price rises much even if they tried, but in Europe where prices are very high and up to 80% of the price at the pump is tax, the pressure to act could be considerable.

It has already happened once, when the UK government was forced in autumn 2000 to halt the fuel tax escalator. I fear a few years down the line, given enough civil unrest, it could be put into reverse. Up to 6% of UK government revenue would be put at risk.

The problem is the respite for personal finances will be temporary, but the effects on government tax revenue will be permanent. As if a contracting economy isn't enough, governments may have their resources cut even further. Aside from the additional unemployment caused by cuts in size of government (this has its downsides in countries where it is one of the largest employers), it means the possibility of a well-funded planned response is zero. Precisely during the rollover years, any government choosing to cut fuel taxes to take the heat off its citizens, would probably be opting out of funding structural reforms, however modest their benefit may be.

The politics of the UK are such that it is ripe for it, and recent precedent exists.
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Re: Gasoline Taxes and Consumption

Unread postby MrBill » Mon 09 Apr 2007, 04:21:04

Twilight wrote:

Returning to the topic, one problem I could imagine happening is governments coming under pressure to reduce fuel taxes once prices bring real pain to consumers. This won't be much of an issue in the US, taxes are so low the government couldn't offset price rises much even if they tried, but in Europe where prices are very high and up to 80% of the price at the pump is tax, the pressure to act could be considerable.


Never underestimate the pressure on governments to tax & spend unless there is strong enough pressure from the populace to pay down debt and reduce the size of government.

Mr. Brown has pretty much destroyed the UK's tax competitiveness vis a vie the rest of Continental EU over the past decade. Moving from Germany to the UK in 1995 was an automatic 15% increase in salary as individual net tax rates were circa 35% vs. 50%. No longer.

As to your point Germany is going in the opposite direction. They have actually increased taxes on bio-fuels to make them less competitive against conventional fuels. The same way they increased taxes on diesel engines to remove any tax advantage over gasoline engines. And eco-taxes do not go towards building energy efficient alternatives, but into the general operating budget of the government.

It has nothing to do with long-term planning, and is just an example of a short-term tax grab unfortunately!
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Conservation and Taxation

Unread postby clodhopper » Mon 09 Jul 2007, 11:10:02

There has been much debate about alternatives to fossil fuels, in particular renewables, and indeed all of them will be needed in the fight against global warming and oil and gas depletion. The easiest, cheapest and most effective way, though, is just to use less.
To conserve energy is to continue to have our needs met whilst using less energy. The West has never before needed to get the best use out of each unit of energy because fossil fuels have been so cheap, and so has been incredibly wasteful.
In the past this waste could be partially excused because no-one realised the effects overuse of fossil fuels would have. With our present knowledge though it is deplorable that this is still happening, especially when with appropriate government-driven incentives, it would be simple to cut consumption. In fact, fossil fuels use could be easily reduced by an amount that would keep global warming below the crucial 2ºC increase, free us from over-dependence on imported oil and gas, and push back the timing of oil depletion. What a result that would be! At www.peakfood.co.uk ,we believe it's just possible.
Tragically even those of us who are convinced of the extreme impending danger are only changing in ways that don't hurt too much. We may, for instance, change to low energy lighting, install extra insulation in the home and switch off electrical items instead of leaving them on stand-by. Such action is beneficial, and saves householders money, but they are not nearly enough! We need really big reductions in fossil energy use and new technology to push it along and we need it fast.
However, even governments that have been warning that climate change is the biggest threat to mankind (such as Tony Blair's Labour government in the UK) seem unwilling to make the changes needed. The reason is simple: they do not believe that the electorate want such change, and do not wish to jeopardise their standing.
Fortunately, public attitudes have changed over the past year. The various scientific reports (including that of the March 2007 IPCC) have almost silenced the denial lobby and the urgency of the situation is now becoming apparent. Ordinary people are becoming more knowledgeable and realising this is not just a problem for polar bears in the distant future, but for themselves and their children now. They are realising that they are condemning future generations to a bleak existence simply because this generation refuses to make the effort needed to do something that is definitely attainable i.e. keep warming from increasing more than 2ºC and delay oil and gas depletion.
Governments in Europe, who are in general more environmentally aware than elsewhere in the world, seem to be giving up on the + 2ºC target and now think that + 3ºC may be the best that can be achieved. In my opinion, this defeatist attitude will bring disaster, as scientists tell us that over 2ºC the runaway effects such as increased ocean evaporation causing more warming therefore more evaporation and so on, will kick in. It seems to me that up to + 2ºC we have some control over our destiny, above +2ºC we have lost it.
In Europe and maybe in America too, we may have a situation where a changed public opinion will embolden governments to make the radical changes needed. This would be to base the entire tax system at local, national and federal level on a massive carbon tax. Income tax, employment taxes and even sales taxes would be replaced by carbon tax. This would change our decision-making and cause technological innovation at the high speed that is necessary. There would be no need to have a complex tax system applying different levels to fuel for cars, trucks, aircraft, electricity etc. By taxing according to how much CO² will be emitted, each fuel will compete on that criterion, the only one that really matters for the purpose. Coal would be taxed more heavily than oil, and oil more than natural gas because of the level of CO² emitted compared to the energy content. Biofuels would not be taxed, but of course fossil fuel inputs would be. Therefore ethanol produced using coal for process heat would become more expensive than that using straw or biogas. Each form of transport would compete according to carbon use, therefore rail and bus would increase in popularity and not need a subsidy.
There are vast amounts of coal left in the world and the coal industry constantly talks of clean coal technology. They often simply mean more efficient generation and the removal of sulphur. They claim that they can remove the CO² into old mines and oil fields, but this will not happen quickly if carbon is not taxed.
If the CO² was removed at coal-fired power plants and coal-to-liquid plants, then coal would have a very bright future. It would only be taxed on the energy used in production, transport and the extra cost of burying CO². Estimated at 40% by some experts, this extra cost would be less than the tax on other fuels.
Without a carbon tax the coal-fired electricity industry will talk a lot but do nothing. A carbon tax is a simple mechanism to achieve our desired result across the board. By taxing the basic fossil energy sources of coal, oil and gas, it would automatically make expensive products that are costly in energy terms to manufacture or power. Similarly for food with a high energy input, the price differentiated compared with foods with low energy input would widen. In this way protein from vegetable sources such as beans and peas would be far cheaper than that from animal sources because less taxed inputs would be used for each unit of protein produced. Even for animal protein the price gap between, say, corn-fed beef and chicken would widen, reflecting the energy requirement to produce each.
Moreover, if diets changed to reflect energy input and therefore cost, the move to less red meat and more vegetables, especially legumes, would give a healthier diet and need less acres to produce.


Trade

As the developed nations started the industrial revolution and per capita are still by far the biggest consumers of energy, they will have to be the first to implement changes radical enough to cut consumption fast. A low carbon economy would eventually be a more efficient economy with low costs, but while the change was in progress trade laws would have to change.
If Europe, for example, turned its tax system to taxing carbon, it would be entitled to insist that imported goods from any nation that did not have the same taxes would need to be accompanied by a verifiable carbon audit showing the carbon cost. Import duty would be levied accordingly. Alternatively, goods would be categorised according to average energy input for duty purposes. This system would mean that the tax levied on carbon would be collected by the importing country rather than the producing country, so that the producing countries would be induced to tax carbon themselves.
Although developing countries would protest initially, they too would reap the benefits of a low carbon economy and there is, in my opinion, no other mechanism that would make changes big and quick enough to avert famine.
What's more this system would collapse the argument in the West that growth in Asia would wipe out savings made here and that we will be simply exporting pollution to those areas.


Is a Carbon Tax Fair?

No tax seems fair to those who are paying more than average, but as a replacement for income and sales taxes and even property-based local taxes, carbon tax is very fair. In general the higher a person's income or wealth, the more he presently pays in all of these taxes, but a carbon tax allows people to change their behaviour and spend their income in less fuel-hungry ways. The very rich would make big income tax savings but would almost certainly pay lots of carbon tax. Poor families who now use less energy than average would be better off. Some people, such as those on fixed state pensions in Europe would be worse off, so some of the carbon tax revenue would need to be used to increase their pension and also give grants for home insulation and other energy saving initiatives.
There is a great deal that ordinary people can do to cut energy waste if the financial incentive is large enough. A few years ago, it was thought that electronic communication, especially the internet, would allow more people to work from home, saving fuel and time. This has not happened as quickly as hoped, partly one suspects, because people need the discipline of actually showing up at work and staying for the set hours. The home has too many distractions for all but the most dedicated worker. One solution would be small high-tech suburban office blocks where companies could hire space for their employees close to where they live.
Similarly, today's communication systems such as e-mail, video conferencing and the now universal cell phone with its voice and text facilities, should make the need for face-to-face business meetings unnecessary in most cases; but so far the opposite seems to be the case. The freeways, motorways and autobahns of this world are crowded with cars, usually with one occupant, many of whom are travelling many miles for a meeting with a client, customer, supplier, lawyer, accountant or whoever because that's the way business is done.
Similarly, the first class and business class sections of airplanes are filled with business people who have usually done all the months of preparation for a deal by the marvellous electronic methods now available, but feel the need to fly half-way around the world for a face-to-face meeting, a handshake and a signature.
Car-sharing is not done anything like as much as would be expected considering that in any suburban area there must be many sets of people who work close together in the commercial or industrial areas of the towns and cities. The internet would be a quick and easy way of linking people with the same travel needs.
Electronic communication, car-sharing and similar energy saving moves will quickly look very attractive indeed when carbon is heavily taxed, leading to changes in behaviour and consequently lower CO² emission and slower fossil fuel depletion.


Carbon Tax and Innovation

President George Bush has said that technology will solve the problems of climate change and oil dependency and I agree. But to rely on normal market forces to drive innovation is going to be far too slow to keep warming below + 2ºC or to eliminate the danger of oil and gas supply disruption. If carbon was the basis of the tax system, successful innovation would be rewarding. Every sector would need to invest enormous sums of money in change to ensure survival.
When the financial rewards are huge, innovation and development can be extremely rapid. In computers, for example, change has been at a speed that even the experts could not foresee. I remember being shown around a large coal-fired power plant many years ago that was built in two stages several years apart. A very large room was half-filled with the computers needed to control the first stage of the plant and the empty half was ready for the computers to control the second stage. Of course, by the time the second stage was built computer processing power had increased dramatically and all the computers could be fitted into a room that wasn't much bigger than a closet.
The technology is already available that would significantly reduce fuel use if given the push of higher taxes. The next generation Toyota Prius hybrid will be capable of 100 mpg. Diesel hybrids with extra battery capacity for plug-in overnight charge using off-peak electricity would be even more advantageous as they would make use of wind power and other electric generation that tends to produce surplus overnight power. Since most daily travel to work and shopping is short distance, overnight charging would be enough for these trips, with the diesel or gasoline engine being used for long journeys.
Probably even better than the plug-in hybrid would be a car powered only by a battery that could be quickly changed. Service stations would have a facility whereby a car would have its partly discharged battery removed automatically, and a fully-charged one slotted in. Payment would also be automatic so that the change would take only a few minutes. In any vehicle, but especially an electric-powered one, weight is crucial to give a good balance between range and economy. In an all-electric vehicle with plug-in overnight charge and quick-swap battery facility, the weight of the engine and fuel in a hybrid would be saved so that a large battery could be fitted giving a good range between charges or battery swaps. And of course it is likely that innovation would soon increase the run-times of these cars.
With a carbon tax in place, every product from small electrical appliances to houses would be bought with energy consumption in mind. Incandescent lighting and stand-by on televisions and other electrical goods would become less popular. The design of homes would be geared to energy savings. It is already possible to build a home that needs very little fossil energy to run by having excellent insulation, no large north facing windows, a ground source heat pump and solar panels for water heating.
In Sweden, city building codes require new homes to be built to such high standards that they require less energy to heat them than most new homes built in Britain where winters are far milder. The additional building cost is quickly recovered in lower energy bills. For older houses, carbon tax would speed up insulation of roofs, cavity walls and windows, and would encourage the use of more advanced heat and control systems.
A heavy carbon tax would stimulate rapid innovation in every industry from agriculture to heavy engineering. We must bear in mind that the world as we see it today has been developed on the basis of cheap fossil fuel. There has been no reason to develop new machines that are more economical but have a higher capital cost that takes years to repay in fuel savings. Technologies to utilise present day sunshine have struggled to compete with fossil fuels.A carbon tax will hasten a time when we can manage on abundant renewable resources.
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Re: Conservation and Taxation

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 18 Jul 2007, 19:43:05

I'm sorry but you lost me on this one, you need to condense your message into a set of points and hammer those points home. Skip the moralizing, profligate wasters won't care and those who care are already trying to improve so flailing either of them is unproductive.

You have a world wide audience, state your case clearly and succintly and you may win a large number of converts, or at least make those who disagree with you think about the issue in a new light.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Conservation and Taxation

Unread postby Pops » Wed 18 Jul 2007, 20:20:21

What Tanada said; go for the executive summary first and expound late - good title tho.

The first sentence is what grabs folks; remember:

It was a dark and stormy night.

?
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PO = more taxes?

Unread postby kevincarter » Fri 06 Jun 2008, 14:17:59

This year I am quite concerned about taxes, they suppose a burden for my planning.

Do you think that when we hit full speed crisis the government will rise taxes? I think they will. Particulary in Europe I see they'll rise taxes in gas, instead of cutting down on them like some believe. It will be for our own good and very well marketed, as usual. Then will rise taxes on everything else, no kidding.
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Re: PO = more taxes?

Unread postby like_the_dinosaurs » Fri 06 Jun 2008, 15:37:35

I'm fairly certain taxes won't rise because they simply dont need too. The increases in price for oil and coal means more money for governments and they sure as hell won't raise them in a depression.
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Re: PO = more taxes?

Unread postby BigTex » Fri 06 Jun 2008, 15:44:33

TAXES WILL ABSOLUTELY RISE!

State and local governments especially, since they can't print money like the Feds, and they will have to find some way of maintaining their vast vehicle fleets they needs for fire, police, maintenance, dog catchers, etc.

Given that a lot of this money is raised through property taxes, in the face of falling home values that's sort of a double whammy--their tax base is shrinking at the same time that their expenses are rising.

It has also gotten a lot more expensive for municipalities to borrow money.

Expect more unfunded federal mandates on state and local governments too, which is like a federal income tax increase in drag.
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Re: PO = more taxes?

Unread postby joeltrout » Fri 06 Jun 2008, 15:45:24

In the US Dems taking office = more taxes?

Maybe a double whammy for us.

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Re: PO = more taxes?

Unread postby joeltrout » Fri 06 Jun 2008, 15:47:20

BigTex wrote:Given that a lot of this money is raised through property taxes, in the face of falling home values that's sort of a double whammy--their tax base is shrinking at the same time that their expenses are rising.



California is DOOMED!!!!

Who in their right mind would live there. :oops:

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Re: PO = more taxes?

Unread postby Cashmere » Fri 06 Jun 2008, 16:08:48

Government revenue is going to plummet.

1. Lower property tax revenue.

2. Fewer employed people and fewer wall street profits, which is what drove clinton's "surplus".

When govt. revenues plummet they may . . .

1. Borrow more.
2. Tax more.
3. Spend less.
4. Shrink.
5. Invade.
6. Raise Taxes.
7. Crank up the printing presses.

I expect 1, 2, 5, 6, and 7.
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Re: PO = more taxes?

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Fri 06 Jun 2008, 17:28:50

BigTex has it right. Local and state taxes will rise, federal taxes probably won't.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: PO = more taxes?

Unread postby joeltrout » Fri 06 Jun 2008, 18:02:43

Dreamtwister wrote:BigTex has it right. Local and state taxes will rise, federal taxes probably won't.


If Obama gets elected he has already said he will raise taxes.

So vote McCain.

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