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US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

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US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 13:02:33

US could make major savings through energy efficiency home retrofits, says report

Existing energy efficiency technologies could reduce an average home’s energy use by 40%, according to a report unveiled by US Vice President Joe Biden yesterday.

The US Department of Energy report, Recovery Through Retrofit, says that retrofitting existing homes with energy efficiency measures could cut energy bills by $21 billion and reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 160 million metric tons every year.

But to realise the potential of energy efficiency, the report makes some major policy recommendations.


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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby Revi » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 13:08:42

Duh. This is the low hanging fruit. We did air sealing on 3 houses last weekend, and they probably are going to save hundreds of dollars in heating oil this winter.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 13:11:55

No doubt. Increase efficiency plus the plummeting cost of solar panels (see nanosolar) will result in HUGE savings on traditional energy sources.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 13:18:51

It will be years before individuals can buy Nanosolar panels for residential use. Everything is tied up in large-scale installations.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 13:44:58

mos6507 wrote:It will be years before individuals can buy Nanosolar panels for residential use. Everything is tied up in large-scale installations.


If by years you mean 5 years, then I'd say yes. in the meantime DOW is already putting out a product:

http://cleantechnica.com/2009/10/06/sol ... -unveiled/

The new shingle technology is composed of thin-film copper indium gallium diselenide photovoltaic cells in a design that creates a solar energy generating roof product. The product is intended for use by homeowners interested in generating their own electricity.

“One day, a person would no more think about buying a house without solar shingles than they would buy a house without plumbing. That is our hope, at least.” said John Cleereman, Senior Director of Solar Development.

Building Intergrated Photovoltaic systems often are integrated into roofing tiles, but Dow says their technology is more energy efficient and costs less. The energy efficiency of their shingles has been reported to be above 10 percent.


BTW Mos, how do you do those animations? I'd like to start a satirical look at doomers called "We're doomed"; the premise is the main character sees doom around every corner.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 13:57:53

Maybe Obama can send everyone a can of "Great Stuff" foam... That should help solve our problems!
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 16:09:09

Lets see - 350 million cans of foam applied in the right places to stop infiltration -- I predict a payback time of about 3 days.

You are right - he should do it.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby yesplease » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 20:50:55

mos6507 wrote:It will be years before individuals can buy Nanosolar panels for residential use. Everything is tied up in large-scale installations.
IIRC the thin film manufacturers are only about $.5/W cheaper than the cheaper on-grid panels, and pretty much identical in price to the non-UL stuff, so it isn't as if we need thin film to ride to the rescue.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby HeckuvaJob » Wed 21 Oct 2009, 21:06:05

Efficiency is our greatest untapped source of energy.

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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby Pops » Thu 22 Oct 2009, 07:51:20

The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 22 Oct 2009, 08:42:49

yesplease wrote:
mos6507 wrote:It will be years before individuals can buy Nanosolar panels for residential use. Everything is tied up in large-scale installations.
IIRC the thin film manufacturers are only about $.5/W cheaper than the cheaper on-grid panels, and pretty much identical in price to the non-UL stuff, so it isn't as if we need thin film to ride to the rescue.


That just means thin film isn't cheap enough. Last I checked there isn't a flood of people installing PV solar.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby yesplease » Thu 22 Oct 2009, 13:10:16

mos6507 wrote:That just means thin film isn't cheap enough. Last I checked there isn't a flood of people installing PV solar.

When did you check? CA installed half of all of 2008's capacity in one quarter, which was equal to all of 2007's installed capacity. There appears to be a lot of people interested in PV installs.

Course, just because it's cheap enough to install doesn't mean it's cheap enough for everyone to consider. The average person w/ a 30 year fixed rate loan paying it off over 30 years ends up paying more than twice the loan amount. So if people are willing to pay twice what something like a house is worth in interest just to have lower monthly payments, I doubt they would consider a solar panel system even if the panels were free since and the system paid itself off in two years because it represents a lump sum payment that's larger than the monthly electric bill.

There are always going to be people that will trade lower payments now for greater debt later, but that doesn't mean that panel prices aren't cheap enough for those who care more about lower long run costs, thin film or otherwise.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby MarkJ » Sat 14 Nov 2009, 08:39:24

Potential savings are incredible in my region of the Northeast due to 1800s to early 1900s housing stock .

Many large homes are still uninsulated, poorly insulated, poorly weatherized, have single pane windows and grossly oversized, grossly inefficient 50 plus year old boilers, furnaces, coal-conversion units etc.

We just serviced a 3,600 sq/ft Colonial with no insulation, single pane windows, one 1930s oil fired hot water boiler, two 1960s oil-fired steam boilers and two 1970s oil fired hot water heaters providing heat/hot water to two extra apartments. They used about 4,000 gallons of heating oil last year.


In addition, many homes have no zoning, so their oversized, inefficient boilers are heating several zones they're not using.

Many of our customers with inefficient boilers with tankless coils use incredible amounts of heating oil just to provide domestic hot water. Their boilers cycle on and off many times during the day just to maintain temperature when there's no demand for hot water.

Since many systems are poorly designed, there's an incredible waste of energy due to short cycling, jacket loss, stand-by loss, chimney loss, piping loss, ghost flow (from lack of/non functional flo-check valves) poor burner tuning etc.

Many of the installers and service people in the market don't have the knowledge, skills, tools and equipment necessary to design, install and service and tune highly effificient hydronic systems. Even those with the proper tools and knowledge don't use them since time is money.


It's pretty common for our construction, heating and heating fuel customers to use 50 percent less fuel by simply replacing their inefficient boiler/tankless coil with a high efficiency boiler, indirect water heater and outdoor reset control. Zoning saves even more.

I've saved some of our customers 20 to 30 percent by upgrading their burners, downfiring their boilers and tuning their systems properly.

I just had a call the other day form a customer with no flow check valves isolating their heating zones form their indirect water heater. Their system was heating their baseboards zones all summer, so they burned up all their propane, plus their A/C was working overtime to overcome the heat from their baseboard heating system.

Many of our customers won't replace their existing inefficient equipment since HEAP and Emergency HEAP provide them with free fuel.

The free furnace/boiler replacement programs also don't pay enough for high quality, high efficiency installations.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby HeckuvaJob » Sat 14 Nov 2009, 12:17:37

MarkJ wrote:Many of our customers won't replace their existing inefficient equipment since HEAP and Emergency HEAP provide them with free fuel.
The free furnace/boiler replacement programs also don't pay enough for high quality, high efficiency installations.

I've noticed a similar situation regarding PA's low income energy assistance. They seem to only want to create the impression of solving the problem.

Your company focuses only on hydronics? Do you only work with the state assistance programs or also have retail customers? What's your take on the weatherization/insulation programs side of the equation?
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby MarkJ » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 07:38:46

Your company focuses only on hydronics? Do you only work with the state assistance programs or also have retail customers? What's your take on the weatherization/insulation programs side of the equation?


We service and install oil/gas/propane fired residential/commercial hydronic, steam, forced air and hybrid systems, but there are more boilers than furnaces in many regions we service, especially in older homes and buildings.

Subsidized heating fuel customers and subsidized furnace/boiler service/repair/replacement customers are a relatively small part of our business by choice, but this customer base has grown as the income qualification limits have increased.

Most of the subsidized furnace/boiler replacement work is low bid cut-and-run work, so we avoid it unless it's to help a long term customer.

We're swamped with non subsidized annual service, service contract, standard service, emergency service and installation work, so we don't mess with low bid work, highly competitive bid work, low margin work, non-customer warranty work, paperwork, approvals, red tape, fronting large amounts of money and waiting to get paid.

Servicing the older equipment is an expensive, time consuming, dirty job, so we've dropped many of these non-subsidized customers as well. To make money doing subsidized service, you'd have to cut a lot of corners since annual service on some of the large older units requires 3 plus hours of labor, plus tons of refractory, high temp silicone, oddball filters/nozzles/pump strainers, extra vacuum bags etc. We could service 2/3/4 modern units in that time @ $150 to $250 per unit vs $150 for the single subsidized service unit.

Many of these older units contain, asbestos and vermiculite, plus they're generally filthy to service as well. Many people doing cut-rate service vacuum these units with cheap non commercial vacuums and never wear gloves or respirators.

IMO, the winterization/weatherization and furnace/boiler replacement programs make more sense than buying fuel for customers with uninsulated/poorly insulated homes and/or grossly inefficient heating systems. Many of these customers have much less financial incentive to weatherize, replace grossly inefficient equipment, or turn down thermostats since HEAP/Emergency HEAP pays for much of their fuel.
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby bromius » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 02:52:23

MarkJ wrote:
IMO, the winterization/weatherization and furnace/boiler replacement programs make more sense than buying fuel for customers with uninsulated/poorly insulated homes and/or grossly inefficient heating systems. Many of these customers have much less financial incentive to weatherize, replace grossly inefficient equipment, or turn down thermostats since HEAP/Emergency HEAP pays for much of their fuel.


I agree. I lived in an apartment that was rent controlled, with the utilities included in the rent for several years. While living there I definitely made an attempt to conserve energy, since avoidable waste does not sit well with me. That said, I moved out of there and into another place about 4 months ago that does not include my utilities. I definitely notice myself going to greater lengths to conserve since now I have a financial incentive in addition to just trying to live the way I think I should.

On that subject, one measure my roomate (who is a borderline Cornucopian, btw) and I took recently was to buy a new digital timer thermostat so that we can program it to let the apt cool down when we are not likely to be there. I work nights, he works days, but in general we only need the temp to be at the max (67 deg F) about 8-10 hours a day. The rest of the time it gets chopped down to 60.

I have a question about this, because to this day I remember having an argument with a guy I knew several years ago about setting the thermostat. He was convinced that lowering it when he was not in the house was pointless because, "The heater just has to run constantly after you get home to get the place back up to temp." I don't think he was right. Making the assumptions that a structure is somewhat insulated and free of major drafts, doesn't lowering the thermostat save energy/money by reducing the temperature difference between the inside and outside of the building therefore reducing the speed at which heat diffuses out of the structure?
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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 27 Jan 2010, 16:51:58

Energy efficiency to shine in 2010

Solar and wind power may get the headlines and attention, but green-tech experts say 2010 will be dominated by energy efficiency, the mundane but critical process of cutting the amount of gas and electricity that homes and offices use.

Energy Secretary Steven Chu regularly describes himself as an "energy-efficiency nut." Sixteen states, including California and New York, have passed legislation enabling homeowners to finance energy-efficiency upgrades through their property taxes. President Obama even declared insulation "sexy" at a Home Depot last month.

Then there are the sheer numbers:


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Re: US could make savings thru energy efficiency home retrofits

Unread postby scssvop » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 00:09:48

I've been looking into doing some energy efficiency projects around the house. I bought an old townhouse, and I've been looking at ways to save energy. I really want to replace all the windows and sliding glass doors first, as well as doing new insulation.

I have a mail slot in my door that I am sure is wasting a lot of energy due to air flow.

Problem is, the wife would rather decorate than make the modifications I would like to do. I guess that's what I get for being a newylwed in a new house.

Are there any online calculators to see how much you should see in energy savings per sq foot or something?
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