[Ibon]

In regards to more tribalism, I certainly hope so!

People need to take care of themselves and their kids first, then expand outward from the family to extended family, neighbors and friends, after that consider helping others in areas you are skilled in or maybe trading with some one who is better skilled in certain things. Keeping things tight also quickly identifies the slackers and takers, who can be easily dealt with.

That said, I support a large UBI (Twice the poverty level) which is socialist, and I had been against. )

The tribalism we see today is fake tribalism, born of social media , the media in general, and everyone behind their digital screen typing words that produce ZERO in terms of the tribalism you are advocating. This fake tribalism is digital, anti community, anti organic, is mainly about grievances and deconstruction rather than adding any of the cohesive elements of tribalism you are advocating. Just look at the vast number of posts on this site and seriously, ask yourself, do all these diatribes of institutional criticisms add up to anything at all?

In fact, years ago those of us at the stage of analyzing the big picture of ecological, economic, political dysfunction were somewhat on the vanguard. Go back 15 years and read the posts here on this site. What has happened in the meantime? Nothing really, it is just that the rest of society has now also joined the bantering and whining and digital tribal deconstruction game. We are not special here anymore. we have become the very definition of ordinary, coming on this site and bashing one party or the other while we sit in the anonymity of our digital screens.

This is everything the opposite of what you state about supporting tribalism. There is nothing organic about this, nothing cohesive, nothing that strengthens relations between neighbors. It is also not agorist in the deeper sense of this philosophy you support.

The last week I was involved in that national park event and two days ago at the local community school here all the coffee growers were invited by the Ministry of Health and Ministry of Agriculture to discuss the protocols of bio security during times of COvid19 with the upcoming coffee harvest requiring all us coffee growers to house temporarily migrant indigenous workers. How to control the spread of the virus, what protocols we have to set up, doctors giving speaches, all these farmers in the room asking questions, one of the police set up several months ago a Whatsapp group chat for all agriculture growers so that we can as a group communicate issues and urgencies that come up. This police officer gave a speach, I have already been a member of this group since a couple of months and many growers joined to increase communication since we are all in remote locations. Anyway, I left that meeting, some of it was beuracratic bullshit, some of it useful, but after the meeting I went to this coffee shop where this Expat from the US who I have known for years was sitting by himself and streaming some video about the new world order and how Covid was all fake and he was deeply immersed in the conspiracy. This guy lives here mostly alone, he is not integrated in the fabric of this rural agricultural community, his whole entire social world has become digital and coming to this cafe and sticking his head in his computer is about as organic as he can manage in terms of social interaction.

Sound familiar?

Well, the political tribalism today in America is actually the thinnest veneer as it is no thicker than that digital screen that is in front of your face right now as you read this.

That is all you really need to know.

[Ibon]

By the way, a UBI paid for by a VAT tax would be an incredible win for rural communities. Here in Panama all of us rural folks get around the 10% vat by offering services and goods to each other outside the official invoicing transaction which requires the VAT to be added.

The US might be driven into a more informal black economy like many 3rd world countries if we implemented a UBI abnd VAT tax to pay for it but it would pump a lot of oxygen into rural communities and create more organic resiliency as folks would "game" the system by trading with each other more. This would not really affect the globalist economy that much but would surely help many rural folk with good work ethics to gain a little bit more independence .

[careinke]

Ibon,

I knew we had some common beliefs. We just have different definitions of the word Tribalism.

[Subjectivist]

By the way, a UBI paid for by a VAT tax would be an incredible win for rural communities. Here in Panama all of us rural folks get around the 10% vat by offering services and goods to each other outside the official invoicing transaction which requires the VAT to be added.

The US might be driven into a more informal black economy like many 3rd world countries if we implemented a UBI abnd VAT tax to pay for it but it would pump a lot of oxygen into rural communities and create more organic resiliency as folks would "game" the system by trading with each other more. This would not really affect the globalist economy that much but would surely help many rural folk with good work ethics to gain a little bit more independence .

I am sorry but you folks all keep acting like enacting a UBI would have no market impact. Absent a totally managed economy with wage and price controls like those we had during WW II everyone is going to try and cash in on the UBI. I don't mean the direct recipients, I mean the people who sell products and services. Your rent an apartment and you get UBI and BOOM your rent goes up 10% the next lease cycle. You need to buy a new smartphone or pair of good quality hiking boots? Boom, the price just jumped 10% because the seller wants some of your UBI to flow in their direction. You work for a company without a union contract? Boom, you don't need a raise because you just got UBI so you are already making more than the boss thinks you need to keep you working for them.

In a place with a lot more government control of wages and prices sure a UBI can add to the wealth of the poorest segment of the population. In a semi free market like the US? Not so much.

IIRC the last time the Federal Gov instituted wage and price controls was in the early 1970's to try and fight inflation when the 1973 "oil crisis" hit and they could use that as a valid excuse. There were even lapel buttons with W.I.N. for Whip Inflation Now printed on them given out by various politicians.

What happened? Well the famous example is prices for standard cuts of meat were fixed leading to a smart bunch of butchers in NYC looking at cattle and asking themselves what knew cut they could come up with that would maximize the tissue they could pare off into the new cut. And thus the "New York Strip Steak" was invented. Because it was an all new cut they got to set the price about double what the fixed price was for the same weight of steak. Then they did their darnedest to turn as much of every carcass as possible into their "new" cut to maximize their profit while staying inside the rules.

[Ibon]

What happened? Well the famous example is prices for standard cuts of meat were fixed leading to a smart bunch of butchers in NYC looking at cattle and asking themselves what knew cut they could come up with that would maximize the tissue they could pare off into the new cut. And thus the "New York Strip Steak" was invented. Because it was an all new cut they got to set the price about double what the fixed price was for the same weight of steak. Then they did their darnedest to turn as much of every carcass as possible into their "new" cut to maximize their profit while staying inside the rules.

If we have a permanent 2 class society in the USA, what resembles 3rd world countries, then government policy has to address covering the basic needs of those permanently disenfranchised. Otherwise the costs are far greater than what a UBI would cost. Drawing back to comparisons with Panama, there is government fixed pricing on rice, beans, sugar, corn, eggs, and specific cuts of beef and chicken. This enables your lowest wage earner to secure their weekly calorie intake. Other cuts of meat are not regulated and react purely to market forces. There is no reason you cant do this same kind of fixed pricing for staples in the USA along with a UBI.

On another note we have 12 beef cattle over 1000 pounds ready to go to market. Unfortunately the price of beef has dropped to 80 cents a pound for live animals at the slaughter house. The reason for the price drop is your average consumer, so devastated by the economic contraction due to Covid19, can not afford any of the fancier cuts of beef beyond those cuts fixed by the government. THis has caused the price to drop. We are sitting on these beef cattle and hoping for a price increase before the holidays in December, Once the dry season comes and pastures dry up we have to sell along with all the other cattle growers which will flood the market.

No tourists, beef cattle prices dropping, specialty coffee holding steady. This year we had to inject capital once again from over seas to cover our operating expenses. We thought we were done doing that since 2018. We have lots of company.

[Subjectivist]

What happened? Well the famous example is prices for standard cuts of meat were fixed leading to a smart bunch of butchers in NYC looking at cattle and asking themselves what knew cut they could come up with that would maximize the tissue they could pare off into the new cut. And thus the "New York Strip Steak" was invented. Because it was an all new cut they got to set the price about double what the fixed price was for the same weight of steak. Then they did their darnedest to turn as much of every carcass as possible into their "new" cut to maximize their profit while staying inside the rules.

If we have a permanent 2 class society in the USA, what resembles 3rd world countries, then government policy has to address covering the basic needs of those permanently disenfranchised. Otherwise the costs are far greater than what a UBI would cost. Drawing back to comparisons with Panama, there is government fixed pricing on rice, beans, sugar, corn, eggs, and specific cuts of beef and chicken. This enables your lowest wage earner to secure their weekly calorie intake. Other cuts of meat are not regulated and react purely to market forces. There is no reason you cant do this same kind of fixed pricing for staples in the USA along with a UBI.

Fixing the price for staple foods is probably doable, but that ignores my other points. Rents, wages, services like plumbers and electricians, things you can not avoid paying for even if poor in the USA. You do without a plumber or electrician not only at your peril but also with the possibility of having your domicile red flagged as unsafe for habitation do to code violations. Slum lords get away with a lot but in most communities there are real live inspectors they have to bribe to get away with cheating. So IMO to make UBI work you have to institute not just staple food price controls, you have to set sweeping regulations over the entire market where that UBI will be spent.

[Ibon]

Fixing the price for staple foods is probably doable, but that ignores my other points. Rents, wages, services like plumbers and electricians, things you can not avoid paying for even if poor in the USA. You do without a plumber or electrician not only at your peril but also with the possibility of having your domicile red flagged as unsafe for habitation do to code violations. Slum lords get away with a lot but in most communities there are real live inspectors they have to bribe to get away with cheating. So IMO to make UBI work you have to institute not just staple food price controls, you have to set sweeping regulations over the entire market where that UBI will be spent.

Again drawing from experience in Panama, or even from the time I lived in South FLorida where I did major renovations to a home with undocumented immigrant labor avoiding contractors, there is a huge informal economy that will continue to evolve in the USA regardless. You know, the UBI has an intriguing aspect that counter intuitively, compliments capitalism as much as socialism. If every citizen is paid a minimum UBI paid for by a VAT tax, well you eliminate food stamps and all the other welfare programs. Now we all know that there will be those who put that UBI to productive work, and those that will buy drugs. Money will circulate, much more than is now moving in many poor neighborhoods and those self reliant will also begin to offer their services under the table to each other, services like plumbing and electricians can also offer their services without an official VAT invoice, etc. etc. The point is that even if you have these "soft" breaking of rules what you still have is a vibrant black economy of lots of money circulating within these communities. THe part of this that is capitalist is that this money will energize those with entrepeunerial spirit and the remaining will be parasites just living off the basic income. THat is no different than today except that today there is no real money circulating in many of these neighborhoods.

I witness this in Panama, the informal economy in rural areas is thriving. THis presents a problem actually for our business. I have to offset our income with expenses. Auditors here only except expenses that are with an official VAT invoice. THat means when I pay cash without an invoice to a back hoe driver to do work on our road, I save on the VAT but I dont have an invoice to offset the income. Which then means that I do not report all the income either. I am just doing what almost every other rural business does. This all adds up to a very large informal economy.

THere is no reason that in the USA you could have two parallel economies side by side, one which is globalist and big franchise businesses like Starbucks and major corporations that all contribute their taxes and pay into a VAT tax and then you have this underclass that thrives with a UBI and informal economy that is off the government taxation radar. A blind eye would be given to this sector of the economy since the amount of money saved on welfare and social services will offset.

WE need to all face that the USA is becoming more like India where 1st world and 2nd world and 3rd world economies all exist side by side in parallel. Give them each the oxygen they need to thrive.

I know, this is out of the box thinking but I think we can all agree that the USA needs some serious out of the box thinking to solve their ever growing two class society.

[vtsnowedin]

If a large portion of the population avoids the VAT tax via bartering then the tax rate will have to be raised to unreasonable levels on those working above board. The incentive for avoidance and corruption would magnify and the system will collapse shortly.
You would end up with a totalitarian government that would demand to know where your money came from so they could rake back the taxes from those that avoided them by battering with you then send both you and him off to reeducation camps to learn better compliance.

[Ibon]

If a large portion of the population avoids the VAT tax via bartering then the tax rate will have to be raised to unreasonable levels on those working above board. The incentive for avoidance and corruption would magnify and the system will collapse shortly.
You would end up with a totalitarian government that would demand to know where your money came from so they could rake back the taxes from those that avoided them by battering with you then send both you and him off to reeducation camps to learn better compliance.

Those avoiding paying VAT would never even come close to representing more than a fraction of the total economy. The US economy is measured by GDP which is not primarily production based. It is consumption and service based. You establish a VAT tax system varying between 5% and 15%. Also essentials like drugs, AG products for farmers, etc. would be VAT free. Obviously when purchasing finished goods from China you would pay the highest VAT tax of 15%. Now all of that part of the US economy that is consumption and service based is by and large from large companies. Think airline industry, hotel industry, beverage companies, chain restaurants, retail stores, even on line Amazon purchases..... all of that there will be VAT tax applied. These large chain stores and large corporation have the advantage of economy of scale just from the sheer volume. Consider Walmart and Costco. We have all watched the hollowing out of rural America for the past 40 years as these powerful large corporations eliminated all your mom and pop business in rural areas. That is the segment of the market, along with your inner city neighborhoods that have equally been hollowed that would benefit from a more informal economy. This relatively small part of the total economy would be able to barter, provide cash services without invoices. A UBI would circulate alot of money into these areas.

It is about leveling the playing field but also insuring social stability in what is invariably going to be a growing two class society in the USA.

All of these novel new tax schemes or UBI could really be pragmatic based, not ideological.

WE have not had reform or policy based on pragmatism for quite a while. Everything goes through the ideological lens and gets corrupted.

This is just all off the cuff conjecture. Due diligence of course required.

[careinke]

If a large portion of the population avoids the VAT tax via bartering then the tax rate will have to be raised to unreasonable levels on those working above board. The incentive for avoidance and corruption would magnify and the system will collapse shortly.
You would end up with a totalitarian government that would demand to know where your money came from so they could rake back the taxes from those that avoided them by battering with you then send both you and him off to reeducation camps to learn better compliance.

Is that happening in EU countries that have a VAT tax? Or does it only happen when combining a VAT with UBI? Are their any examples out there? We seriously need to look into this.

[vtsnowedin]

I don't know of any country that has combined a UBI with a VAT tax to pay for it. Keep in mind that corporations don't pay taxes imposed on them, they just add it to the price and make the consumer pay them.
I see a UBI supported by a VAT as a classic Ponzi scheme doomed to fail.

[careinke]

I don't know of any country that has combined a UBI with a VAT tax to pay for it. Keep in mind that corporations don't pay taxes imposed on them, they just add it to the price and make the consumer pay them.
I see a UBI supported by a VAT as a classic Ponzi scheme doomed to fail.

So do you have a solution for the massive job cuts coming due to AI and Robotics? Or maybe you reject the whole premise? I think we need to tax the Robots, and a UBI seems the way to go. But I'm open to alternatives. Especially if it does not involve using coercion.

[Plantagenet]

I see a UBI supported by a VAT as a classic Ponzi scheme doomed to fail.

So do you have a solution for the massive job cuts coming due to AI and Robotics? Or maybe you reject the whole premise? I think we need to tax the Robots, and a UBI seems the way to go. But I'm open to alternatives. Especially if it does not involve using coercion.

The obvious way to do things like this is the way that Alaska, Norway, Saudi Arabia and other countries are already doing it with their sovereign wealth funds.

The US should establish a sovereign wealth fund, invest the money in stocks and other assets, and then pay the UBI with the earnings from the fund.

The establishment of a sovereign wealth fund solves the whole issue of "fairness" because EVERYONE owns a share of the sovereign wealth fund, and everyone receives a dividend from the earnings of the soverign wealth fund. Its philosophically and politically a simple and understandable arrangement.

Now all we have to do it find a way to fund it......Alaska, Norway and Saudi have funded their sovereign wealth funds with taxes on oil companies. I'd support the United States doing something like this with its energy tax revenue.....instead of wasting tax revenues on welfare and foreign aid, why not nationalize all US oil and NG and coal energy companies, and then dedicate all income from these nationalized energy companies to a US sovereign wealth fund, whose purpose is to pay a dividend to all American citizens.

AND you don't have to wait until its fully funded.....as soon as the fund is established it can start paying out dividends and building up poitical support. Here in Alaska the first dividend was a couple of hundred bucks, and now its up at a thousand or higher. Just set the dividend level at about a 3 of the annual earnings of the fund, re-invent the rest and stick more money from more taxes or nationalized oil company revenue, and watch the sovereign wealth fund grow and grow and grow.

AND by nationalizing all US fossil fuel energy companies, you open the door to a national energy policy and a national climate change policy......both things that are desperately needed.

Its win-win- and win for everybody (except the oil companies.....and they've already had a century to make their money).



CHEERS!

[vtsnowedin]

.instead of wasting tax revenues on welfare and foreign aid, why not nationalize all US oil and NG and coal energy companies,

I know of no country that has tried that that did not find it a disaster. Mexico, Venezuela?
I think not.
I have been for charging robots (Through their owners of course) income tax on their productivity for quite some time.They would still be a bargain for the owners compared to the people they replace as they don't need health insurance, child day care, or vacations, and never go on strike.

[Plantagenet]

I have been for charging robots (Through their owners of course) income tax on their productivity for quite some time.

I think that should be called a "Value added tax" rather than an income tax....since robots won't be paid anything and don't receive an income, but I take your point.

Sure......that would work as a way to fund or partially fund an UBI program.

Another way would be to implement Andrew Yang's original proposal. Yang proposed taking all the money that is currently spent on welfare, social security, food stamps, housing assistance etc. etc. and using all that money to pay for the UBI.

Yang also called for a 10% VAT on every dollar spent in the USA....with all that money also going to fund his version of the UBI.

Cheers!

[careinke]

I would keep the VAT on food, just to encourage people to grow there own. The VAT on a package of seed is not that much money, and if you save your seeds, it's no money.

I'd also place a tax on every stock or bond transaction, freeing up a large amount of bandwidth for other purposes.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I would keep the VAT on food, just to encourage people to grow there own. The VAT on a package of seed is not that much money, and if you save your seeds, it's no money.

I'd also place a tax on every stock or bond transaction, freeing up a large amount of bandwidth for other purposes.

First, since when is there a bandwidth shortage? Second, once the large herd of low earth orbit WIFI satellites is in place and people can make WIFI connections virtually anywhere on earth via satellite, we're going to have more WIFI bandwidth than you can shake a stick at.

https://thenextweb.com/podium/2019/08/2 ... 0b-a-year/

If you are in favor of a VAT vs. traditional income taxes or want a VAT to raise more money, including a regressive tax on poor people, OK, but let's just call it what it is instead of claiming there's some meaningful bandwidth shortage when in reality, huge numbers of people are streaming video every day, much of that on all-the bandwidth-you-want-at-one-low-price internet accounts.

[careinke]

I would keep the VAT on food, just to encourage people to grow there own. The VAT on a package of seed is not that much money, and if you save your seeds, it's no money.

I'd also place a tax on every stock or bond transaction, freeing up a large amount of bandwidth for other purposes.

First, since when is there a bandwidth shortage? Second, once the large herd of low earth orbit WIFI satellites is in place and people can make WIFI connections virtually anywhere on earth via satellite, we're going to have more WIFI bandwidth than you can shake a stick at.

https://thenextweb.com/podium/2019/08/2 ... 0b-a-year/

If you are in favor of a VAT vs. traditional income taxes or want a VAT to raise more money, including a regressive tax on poor people, OK, but let's just call it what it is instead of claiming there's some meaningful bandwidth shortage when in reality, huge numbers of people are streaming video every day, much of that on all-the bandwidth-you-want-at-one-low-price internet accounts.

Yes you are right, actually my sister in law and teacher is just starting with a test on Starlink. It appears to hold a lot of potential, especially for rural area with terrible internet access.

Yes I will always prefer a consumption tax over any other type of theft, primarily because it uses the least coercion and can be mitigated with a little effort. As far as being regressive, that's pretty easy to fix with a prebate to everyone covering their taxes up to the poverty level.

We do need outside the box thinking, no one alive has ever been in a box like this before.

[vtsnowedin]

I think that should be called a "Value added tax" rather than an income tax....since robots won't be paid anything and don't receive an income, but I take your point.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". And "A tax is a tax is a tax."
I care not what name you give it. The trick is determining how much to collect from each robot as they vary in size, complexity and productivity and as soon as you set in place a rule they will start building robots that get around the rule. Perhaps a VAT is the way to go as that skims a portion of the value produced but a straight VAT taxes the value of the labor from the remaining human workers on top of the income taxes they are already paying.
Someone will chime in about the VAT replacing other taxes but in the real world politicians add on new taxes and conveniently forget to abolish the old taxes as promised.

[Tanada]

I think that should be called a "Value added tax" rather than an income tax....since robots won't be paid anything and don't receive an income, but I take your point.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". And "A tax is a tax is a tax."
I care not what name you give it. The trick is determining how much to collect from each robot as they vary in size, complexity and productivity and as soon as you set in place a rule they will start building robots that get around the rule. Perhaps a VAT is the way to go as that skims a portion of the value produced but a straight VAT taxes the value of the labor from the remaining human workers on top of the income taxes they are already paying.
Someone will chime in about the VAT replacing other taxes but in the real world politicians add on new taxes and conveniently forget to abolish the old taxes as promised.

That one is easy VT. You calculate how many workers robot X replaces. Then you add up the income taxes, medicare/medicaide/SSI taxes those workers would have paid working three shifts. Then you charge that number to the robot owner as an annual tax replacing the lost government tax revenue.