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"Threads:" Doomer porn

A forum to either submit your own review of a book, video or audio interview, or to post reviews by others.

Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby dorlomin » Sat 09 Jun 2012, 04:24:39

mmasters wrote:Wow what can I say. You think you're tough watch this one. It depicts in grusome, thought out detail, the everyday life as we know it mixed in with a realistic scenario of a nuclear holocaust and the fallout and bleak aftermath. After watching this if there's ever a nuclear war I would want to be vaporized rather than survive it and if I did survive it I would probably want to commit suicide asap. It's some serious shit for sure.

Here it is on youtube for those that are ready:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQo0BQM3OlQ
Here is another.
The war game.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby dorlomin » Sat 09 Jun 2012, 05:47:27

Tanada wrote: that everything post war would be horror piled atop horror, however that just isn't the case. There are not enough devices to create the level of contamination portrayed now and there were not even enough back when that movie was made.
The film was deliberately very constrained due to its need to have a plot. To this end it is largely a short exchange.

In the real world the biggest UK cities would have been targeted with 20 megatons weapons. Among the northern cities that would likely see Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield and Nottingham hit. These weapons have radius of 1st degree burns out to 50km. The 1st degree burns radius from these cities overlaps.

Each of the large steel works in Sheffield would have been targeted with 500kt type weapons as would the other large towns and key infrastructure facilities such as Drax power station and the M1\A1 road interchange.

The film depicts a 300 megatons exchange. In reality the USSR had over 8000 megaton’s in 42000 weapons at that time. The UK alone could expect to receive 300 megaton’s.

The US could reasonably expect 10 000 weapons targeted at it. Perhaps 2000 megaton’s in total. Anything with a population of 200 000 up would get its own visit. Every large airport, every major road junction, individual factories and large power stations would all be assigned their own nuke. A large number of the weapons would be ground bursting, not air bursting so the long term irradiative damage would be significant. Research from Japan indicates that after 100 days after the bomb detonated, a Hiroshima sized bomb, would still be producing 10 times the gamma radiation of the Chernobyl accident from its releases. Most bombs are 100 times bigger and many 1 000 times bigger although the fusion element of the weapon would be nowhere nears as damaging. Still on those numbers and with perhaps 500 ground bursts (in reality it would be more like 5000), one hundred days after the attack the US would have large areas heavily blanketed in enough radiation to trigger immediate radiation sickness, let alone long term cancer and other health issues.

In terms of climate, the aerosol cooling would not be as significant as originally thought, but the sea ice and snow pack feedback would be enough to trigger an estimated 7C drop in temperatures for a couple of years.
The effects of the smoke cloud on surface temperature are extremely large (Fig. 2).
177 Stratospheric temperatures are also severely perturbed (Fig. 3). A global average surface cooling
178 of –7°C to –8°C persists for years, and after a decade the cooling is still –4°C (Fig. 2).
179 Considering that the global average cooling at the depth of the last ice age 18,000 yr ago was
180 about –5°C, this would be a climate change unprecedented in speed and amplitude in the history
181 of the human race. The temperature changes are largest over land. Maps of the temperature
182 changes for the Northern Hemisphere summers for the year of smoke injection (Year 0) and the
183 next year (Year 1) are shown in Fig. 4. Cooling of more than –20°C occurs over large areas of
184 North America and of more than –30°C over much of Eurasia, including all agricultural regions
http://www.envsci.rutgers.edu/~gera/nwi ... cepted.pdf

As a result of the cooling of the Earth’s surface, evapotranspiration is reduced and the
195 global hydrological cycle is weakened. In addition, Northern Hemisphere summer monsoon
196 circulations collapse, because the driving continent-ocean temperature gradient does not develop.
197 The resulting global precipitation is reduced by about 45% (Fig. 2). As an example, Fig. 6
198 shows a map of precipitation change for the Northern Hemisphere summer one year after the
199 smoke injection. The largest precipitation reductions are in the Intertropical Convergence Zone
200 and in areas affected by the North American, Asian, and African summer monsoons. The small
201 areas of increased precipitation are in the subtropics in response to a severely weakened Hadley
202 Cell. Figure 7 shows time series of monthly precipitation for the same Iowa location as shown in
203 Fig. 5, and it is clear


This event would lack the ultra thick ice that comes from a glaciation so would unlikely trigger an ice age as the aerosols were reduced the thin snow pack on the edge would melt back and the abedo would slowly return to normalize levels. However in the event of a real nuclear war, northern hemisphere agriculture would not be possible for several years.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 09 Jun 2012, 06:43:29

Meanwhile back here in the real world 20 MT weapons went out of style in the 1950's and the last of the 9 MT size weapons in the US arsenal were decommed in the early 1980's along with the Titan II ICBM. From about 1955 until today the technology has all been turned toward more accuracy lower yield targeting. The USSR in its day was just as interested in more bang for the buck as the USA/UK/France were because a lighter device meant more devices per launch system. Ground bursts are only for hard targets, air bursts are much more useful against airports/cities/road junctions because the over pressure blast drops buildings and bridge spans making use impossible or difficult. The average USA device by the time Threads was made was down to 1 MT or less and the numbers have continued going that way ever since. The average USSR device by that time was down around 3 MT. Hard to get data on what they have now of course, since the 'cold war' officially ended not many reports are popping out in public.

The fission fragments that come out of these things are far far less damaging than what came out of Chernobyl, yet the wildlife there had re-emerged in 90% of the exclusion zone in under a year. Hyper fear of anything labeled radioactive by the media would tell you nothing could live there for decades, but look at the evidence of your own senses. People on average have no idea how radioactive there surrounding are every day of there life. We had a big scare here a couple decades ago about Radon gas seeping into your basement from the ground despite the fact that everyone has been living just fine with it since we lived in caves. I usually don't bother arguing about this with people on here but I respect you as a rational poster. Don't take my word for it look up the facts about what reality might throw our way in the event of a real world exchange instead of what Hollywood or other movies portray. In that sense The Day After (1984) had a fairly grim short term portrayal of about 3 months after the exchange. Many more will die of starvation than of direct effects, and with travel shut down disease pockets will prosper in random locations. Yes some will die of radiation and many will die of direct effects but most will die of starvation and weakened immune response from the famine. If everyone had a 1950's fallout shelter stocked with food and antiseptic and antibiotics most would survive the 140 days to survivable radiation levels. We don't live in the 1950's any more and hardly anybody even thinks about making preparations, let alone actually preparing.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 09 Jun 2012, 06:51:52

Tanada wrote:There are not enough devices to create the level of contamination portrayed now and there were not even enough back when that movie was made. All explosives follow the cubed squared law...

All fine but the film loks actually too cornucopian for me.

1. It assumes perseverance some sort of of governing structures.
IMO these would be simply decapitated by desperate survivors.
I would expect general Mad Max scenario.

2. 13 (!) years after the war capacity to produce electric power still exist, for example in some shabby setup which might be hospital.
IMO there would be none.

3. There is an assumption that farming machinery would work fior quite a while.
Without much oil and without spares.

As per radioactive pollution, its magnitude is not really specified.
It seems realistic for me that half of population would die within month or two after attack and then radiation related death would start subsiding.

Magnitude of damage seems realistic from UK perspective.
For 200 Mt against Britain in 100-400kt packages general urban landscape would look like on that film.

You are also probably aware that correct configuration of several 400kt devices (I assume that these are currently trendy) would do as much damage as single 20 Mt detonation).
Actually such configuration would be really efficient to destroy vast urban areas.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby dorlomin » Sat 09 Jun 2012, 08:57:11

Tanada wrote:Meanwhile back here in the real world 20 MT weapons went out of style in the 1950's
Wrong.

The Soviets had 20mt warheads in the SS18
Ground bursts are only for hard targets, air bursts are much more useful against airports/cities/road junctions because the over pressure blast drops buildings and bridge spans
Ground bursts are better for targets like dams and road junctions because far more of the energy is transmitted through the ground than the air. The RAF famously switched to ground detonation with their super heavy bombs like the Grand Slam once they became available. They targetted railway bridges and water viaducts with them.
They are also used to irradiate areas, so would have been used against cities and junctions to force the population out or make the junction impassable.

The fission fragments that come out of these things are far far less damaging than what came out of Chernobyl,
You have just made that up. For a uranium based bomb it is an identical nuclear process. Part of the difference being that the very short lived isotopes will be available in exponentially greater volume per unit mass of fissile material. In a weapon that fissile material undergoes the fission at the same time so all of it is converted to the short half life isotopes that will be the most energetic in terms of emissions. While after a reactor accident only a small amount of the reactor material will be the short lived isotopes. Whats more there will be exponentially greater nuclear transmutation of non fissile material that is part of the structure due to the huge gamma ray and neutron flux during the detonation. A large fraction of the tamper and casing will become radioactive.

Use of fallout as denial of area is a long discussed military strategy in part because the drop off on irradiance is so quick. The initial area can be lethal for people in less than an hour yet a couple of week later you can move through it quickly but safely.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby eXpat » Sat 09 Jun 2012, 12:47:02

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw

You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 09 Jun 2012, 15:24:33

dorlomin wrote:
Tanada wrote:Meanwhile back here in the real world 20 MT weapons went out of style in the 1950's
Wrong. The Soviets had 20mt warheads in the SS18
You do know the difference between average and selected max do you not?
The fission fragments that come out of these things are far far less damaging than what came out of Chernobyl,

You have just made that up. For a uranium based bomb it is an identical nuclear process. Part of the difference being that the very short lived isotopes will be available in exponentially greater volume per unit mass of fissile material. In a weapon that fissile material undergoes the fission at the same time so all of it is converted to the short half life isotopes that will be the most energetic in terms of emissions. While after a reactor accident only a small amount of the reactor material will be the short lived isotopes. Whats more there will be exponentially greater nuclear transmutation of non fissile material that is part of the structure due to the huge gamma ray and neutron flux during the detonation. A large fraction of the tamper and casing will become radioactive.
Use of fallout as denial of area is a long discussed military strategy in part because the drop off on irradiance is so quick. The initial area can be lethal for people in less than an hour yet a couple of week later you can move through it quickly but safely.

You state I just made up a factual statement, then you posted a series of facts backing up my point. This type of argument is somewhat puzzling to me, but whatever makes you happy.
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby dorlomin » Sat 09 Jun 2012, 17:14:23

Tanada wrote:You do know the difference between average and selected max do you not?
Meanwhile back here in the real world 20 MT weapons went out of style in the 1950's

20 mt class weapons remain in the arsenal not 'out of fashion in the 50s'

The fission fragments that come out of these things are far far less damaging than what came out of Chernobyl,
.
You state I just made up a factual statement, then you posted a series of facts backing up my point. This type of argument is somewhat puzzling to me, but whatever makes you happy.
You are wrong by a factor of 10 000s or more. For the first 10 minutes after the weapon detonates the nuclear transmutation is so intense that the gamma and neutron radiation is so intense it kills people tens of kilometers away. When it does land as dust it is lethal with a few hours expsure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_Fukury%C5%AB_Maru
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 10 Jun 2012, 01:56:29

dorlomin wrote:
Tanada wrote:You do know the difference between average and selected max do you not?
Meanwhile back here in the real world 20 MT weapons went out of style in the 1950's

20 mt class weapons remain in the arsenal not 'out of fashion in the 50s'

Possibly as EMP weapons only intended to be detonated on altitude 50-100 miles, few on each side.
But even these are likely to be "lighter".

BTW, use 20 Mt weapons against city like target is firmly in domain of the stupid.
Correct configuration of several 100/400 kt warheads suitable for MIRV-s would do even more damage than a 20 Mt warhead (shockwave physics explains well this phenomenon related to waves bouncing from each other and amplifying in certain "nodes").
All that for 1-3 Mt of yield.
Such "composite" attack is also more robust and far more difficult to deflect than a single 20Mt warhead (say by ABM shields etc).

You are wrong by a factor of 10 000s or more. For the first 10 minutes after the weapon detonates the nuclear transmutation is so intense that the gamma and neutron radiation is so intense it kills people tens of kilometers away. When it does land as dust it is lethal with a few hours expsure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_Fukury%C5%AB_Maru

...But Trinity test was observed by guy from a truck only several miles away.
His only protection was a truck windscreen.
I don't think, that have done any good for him, but he certainly survived without immediately recognizable deleterious health effects.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby dorlomin » Sun 10 Jun 2012, 06:36:01

EnergyUnlimited wrote:BTW, use 20 Mt weapons against city like target is firmly in domain of the stupid.
Unlike having 42000 nuclear weapons?

Still the US only has Cheyenne mountain and about 6 silo bases that really honestly warrant a monster like that. But the Soviets had about 300+ at one point. One can only speculate at their attack plan. With the arrival of MIRVs there was some scaling back but it may have been over 100 still on alert in the late 80s. Post USSR it seems they only have about 20. That number would be consistent with an attack on the missile fields and Cheyenne Mountain + Raven Rock.
Such "composite" attack is also more robust and far more difficult to deflect than a single 20Mt warhead (say by ABM shields etc).
What ABM shield. There was one operational briefly to defend US silos. That’s about it.

...But Trinity test was observed by guy from a truck only several miles away.
His only protection was a truck windscreen.
I don't think, that have done any good for him, but he certainly survived without immediately recognizable deleterious health effects.
I checked up for larger weapons the LD50 is given at 5kms so was off by about *4.

Still the point stands, the nuclear transmutation immediately post blast produces an incredible amount of radiation. It is many orders of magnitude greater than the leakage from Chernobyl.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby seahorse3 » Mon 11 Jun 2012, 17:14:39

Tanada, I don't see how even a partial exchange is "survivable" other than a Mad Max scenario. Why? Even if the nukes only took out each others refineries, and all other cities were left untouched, life as we know it stops. Then, if "they" just hit a few power generating sites for good measure, I don't see how the power grid survives, stopping life as we know it. If a simple tree branch can cause the largest blackout in US history, I can't imagine what a nuclear device would do. If I've learned anthing over the years on these boards about "life as we know it" its a very fragile system where "energy" in the form of electricity and oil are the lifeblood of everything else we have. It wouldn't be difficult to put all society in the West back to the stone age, taking out a few refineries and a few power stations.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 11 Jun 2012, 17:22:58

Yeah, but the only people capable of doing so are dependent on business with the west. Russia and China are just as vulnerable as the USA or Europe.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 11 Jun 2012, 19:10:55

seahorse3 wrote:Tanada, I don't see how even a partial exchange is "survivable" other than a Mad Max scenario. Why? Even if the nukes only took out each others refineries, and all other cities were left untouched, life as we know it stops. Then, if "they" just hit a few power generating sites for good measure, I don't see how the power grid survives, stopping life as we know it. If a simple tree branch can cause the largest blackout in US history, I can't imagine what a nuclear device would do. If I've learned anything over the years on these boards about "life as we know it" its a very fragile system where "energy" in the form of electricity and oil are the lifeblood of everything else we have. It wouldn't be difficult to put all society in the West back to the stone age, taking out a few refineries and a few power stations.


I don't believe Mad Max is realistic, nor do I think BAU will continue too much longer, right now we are just stumbling along under inertia. Ending up struggling to survive with 1912 levels of technology is entirely possible, perhaps even the likeliest scenario. Never once did I say everything would be sunshine and lollipops, what I said was most people who die will die from famine or weakened immune systems leading to pestilence.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby seahorse3 » Mon 11 Jun 2012, 21:34:56

Tanada, I'm not sure I follow the above post. I understand your original belief that, post nuclear war, most would die from starvation not radiation. I don't know. I guess it depends on how many missiles were launched and what cities they hit. What I don't follow about your last post is we go from discussing a hypothetical to your comment above that seems to say we are heading there anyway? 1912? With or without a nuclear exchange?
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 12 Jun 2012, 05:56:36

seahorse3 wrote:Tanada, I'm not sure I follow the above post. I understand your original belief that, post nuclear war, most would die from starvation not radiation. I don't know. I guess it depends on how many missiles were launched and what cities they hit. What I don't follow about your last post is we go from discussing a hypothetical to your comment above that seems to say we are heading there anyway? 1912? With or without a nuclear exchange?


I believe unless we change our ways rapidly BAU will lead to a collapse. If we have a major war we will collapse instantly, if we have a financial collapse then we will reset at a much higher level, but no matter how bad things are I can't see any reasonable scenario that knocks us back to less than 1912 levels of technology. Compared to what we have today that would seem horribly primitive and difficult to most people in first or second world countries. If we avoid a major war and just go through the cultural/financial collapse then I think we can manage to hang on to the technology of the present, but most people won't be able to afford all the luxuries that we have in our lives right now.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby seahorse3 » Tue 12 Jun 2012, 12:20:04

I follow you now.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Wed 13 Jun 2012, 19:22:58

Doomer porn, gotta love it. :twisted:
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby Lore » Wed 13 Jun 2012, 19:54:47

The way I see it, the more techno-dependent we become the harder it is to maintain that fragile hold on our current technology. Most people today, in this country, are several levels removed from food production, housing construction, transportation, communication, you name it. That certainly wasn't the case 150 years ago when we were a simple agrarian society. Remove a few key players in any complex system and that system breaks and in an age of specialization there are few and far in between mechanics to fix it.

I was always amazed and somewhat amused when all hell would break loose on the Starship Enterprise and just about anyone onboard could fix the problem or cure a strange new alien disease in a matter of a few hours. In real life, regrettably, we're not all geniuses with unlimited resources at our disposal.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby Ferretlover » Fri 15 Jun 2012, 14:17:42

By design, or not, one of the more sobering points-of-view is the sssslllooowwww way things collapse and /or disappear. Many parts of the world have grown to expect to get whatever they want or need with little or no effort.
"Open the gates of hell!" ~Morgan Freeman's character in the movie, Olympus Has Fallen.
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Re: Watched "Threads" tonight, the ULTIMATE doomer film

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Fri 15 Jun 2012, 17:30:22

The very worst thing about living in the 3rd world is never knowing when that next sip of water will be the death of you. It's amazing how we take clean water for granted - the very stuff of life.
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