[steam_cannon]

My solar water heater uses 11/2" black poly pipe...

...Requires only human power and sunshine.

Wow, cool improvisation and it's interesting to hear that "black poly pipe" works pretty well...

[SolarDave]

Anyone have the plans. ...

I'm going to hook one of these:

Butler Solar Wand

to one of these:

Computer water pumps - some are ceramic with 50,000 hour ratings

pushing water/antifreeze through PEX tubing to one of these:

Condenser

which I will mount inside the attic (so no UV exposure on the PEX) on the underside of one of the roof vents and use one of these:

12-24VDC Fan

to blow up to 140 degree F attic air out through it, which will simultaneously cool the attic,

all powered by one of these:

20 Watt Solar Panel Kit

It will be quiet, safe, invisible, storm-proof, multi-purpose (heat the water/cool the attic), fully automatic, freeze-proof, easy on the environment (very low amount of materials, particularly copper, compared to commercial solar hat water systems), modular (have more than one vent?) and maintenance-free.

[frankthetank]

I'll look at that design, that looks interesting.

Thing about PEX is the stupid crimpers cost nearly 100 bones.

Also might have to worry about condensation?

[strider3700]

I'll look at that design, that looks interesting.

Thing about PEX is the stupid crimpers cost nearly 100 bones.

Also might have to worry about condensation?

you can rent the crimpers or I saw a different type of clamp for pex when I was doing the bathroom reno but I have access to the crimpers so I just went with that.

the solar wand is a great invention and is the way I will probably end up going since it solves a bunch of issues. I just wish there was an easy way to make my own.

[frankthetank]

I've seen "cheap" crimpers, but am unsure how well they work ($40), but i'm guessing i'd go with good ones. Nothing wrong with buying them, since PEX is probably going to be around for a long time. It sure does seem like it would be easier, and i love the idea of a manifold type system. I've done a lot of plumbing the last year, and I swear my biggest problem is cutting the stupid pipes with those wheels (i've got 3 different ones!).

If i had to redo my plumbing again i'd go PEX, although it would be nice to keep one copper line used exclusively for drinking water...

That Solar wand does look pretty awesome.

[frankthetank]

edit:
Never mind, that solar wand is over $300! Ouch. That would take a long time to recoup costs.

[SolarDave]

edit:
Never mind, that solar wand is over $300! Ouch. That would take a long time to recoup costs.

You are correct, FTT, I consider it "cheap" compared to a purpose-built second "solar" storage tank or other heat exchanger. But it's not in the scrounge/DIY price range.

The rest of the pile of equipment I described above compares well against the cost of "kits" with full-blown roof-mounted collectors. That's what I was working down from.

Anyway, I'm glad you found the ideas interesting, whether you use them or not. That was why I put them up there.

SOlarDave

[frankthetank]

Thanks Solardave.

Like i said earlier, we don't use a lot of hot water here, so i can't see spending a ton of money. Just looking for something that would preheat the water going into the hot water tank. Like Jim said though, is that there isn't a whole lot of water flowing through a 3/4 copper pipe...

Isn't it stupid that a thermal hot water system like this isn't set up on every house? I drive down the street and just look at all this "Roof Real Estate" and think to myself how many "watts" of energy are hitting them in a year! What a waste. A huge industry could flourish, people would use less gas/electricity, and mortgage payments might cost a couple more dollars a month.

[gnm]

I'll look at that design, that looks interesting.

Thing about PEX is the stupid crimpers cost nearly 100 bones.

Also might have to worry about condensation?

Frank, google cash/acme "shark bite" pex connectors.. They kick ass and are even being used inside walls...

-G

[frankthetank]

gnm-

Well aware of them! I keep talking about them to my wife because i like the name. Whoever came up with that deserves to be rich. I was playing with them out at Home Depot the other day (I first learned about them about year ago). Only problem plumbers are saying is that they haven't been tested over a long period like soldered connections have. The price of them is crazy, but if you have a tight spot and am scared of burning the house down, i don't see any other option. Nibco also makes some type of new connector that Menards here is carrying. I think they call it a 'quick connect'. These are also nice because you can tear them apart.

[steam_cannon]

Re: Simplest solar hot water heater setup

Ok frankthetank! Here are two crazier ideas! (Maybe just crazy enough to work!)

People have talked about all the unused roof realestate out there... But what about inside the roof? Ha! Since you said you wanted to make something that would work in the summer heat, instead of putting panels outside on your hot roof, you could simply put piping put inside your hot attic (the attic is the panel)! This might not work for every roof, but it looks like a hot idea to me!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

IDEA 1

(Easy) Turn excess attic heat into hotwater
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2006/0 ... to_ho.html
http://www.instructables.com/id/Turn-ex ... -hotwater/


(painted copper preheater above attic insulation)

A preheater in your hot attic would:
* Probably work, it's been done before and looks simple to construct
* Could be shut off in the winter with valves and drained with less trouble then roof panels.
* Does not involve going on a roof (wife will be happy)
* Homeowner association will be happy (house won't look unusual)
* Would cost less, since it has less parts
* Instead of pipes an uninsulated preheater "summer tank" could be installed making the system cheaper.
* If it doesn't work well enough the pipes could be remade into the roof panels you were planning to build.
* Add a fan and this system would work even better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

IDEA 2

(Damn Easy) Free Air Conditioning and Hot water preheater
http://www.instructables.com/id/Free-Air-Conditioning/



Free air conditioning by piping incoming cold water though a radiator and a fan. This system appears to be highly effective at transferring heat away from a house. It uses city water or ground water. When you use water, why not cool your house with it too? And it's much less work then burying a heat transfer loop in your lawn. Filtered stream water would probably also work and cost a lot less then an air conditioner. And if you really wanted to put something on your roof, you could put a solar panel up there and use a DC powered fan.

Can an air conditioner or water preheater be made simpler then this? This is easier to build then a swamp cooler! Run on a hot day it produces lots of warmed up water, this could be a very simple hot water preheater! Made with almost no work at all! Well, you said you have cold well water that you would like warmed up in the summer, this would do it. Just mess around with piping as you planned, hook up a radiator, rig up a fan and run down the wall wires for a switch and you're done. If you want to get fancy, design a vent so it blows cold air into your house...

How well does it work? We hit a high temperature in July of 112F, hottest that I can remember. The temperature inside was 76F with the cooler running all the time. I almost didn't want to go out to move the sprinkler.
The disadvantages? Well, you have to move the sprinkler a lot, but it does keep the grass green. Also if the humidity gets high, water will condense on the exchanger the same as on a glass of cold water. So I keep towels underneath it to soak up the moisture.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Free-Air-Conditioning/

This is a pretty "cool" setup. The only change I would make is to make bin or wrap vinyl around the bottom to catch condensation.

Also if you wanted to make an air conditioned restaurant or hospital in Mexico (or anywhere without easy access to electricity) you could run a pump to a stream or pond and a fan off a bicycle and cool everyone off. But I digress...

Anyway, those are my last two cents (maybe). It's not a year round solution, but could heat up well water in the summer as you desired. And there are other systems out there that could capture waste water heat in the winter too. Just some things to think about and some amusing ideas...

[frankthetank]

I'd do the top method except for one problem:

Condensation

Cold pipes moving through a hot space is going to create huge moisture problems and my attic is blown cellulose.

Would PEX tubing have this problem?

Heres another thought. I have an attached garage, with somewhat of an attic. I could EASILY run tubing out there (the pressure tank is on that side of the house (in the basement)??? That way any condensation wouldn't be a problem (no insulation in the garage attic, just plywood)....???

Not sure what to think about the second idea.

I just found out 125 of 3/4 copper pipe ONLY Holds just over 3 gallons of water!!! If i chose to construct something, its going to need a storage tank...

[steam_cannon]

I'd do the top method except for one problem:

Condensation

Cold pipes moving through a hot space is going to create huge moisture problems and my attic is blown cellulose.

Well, it is effectively a dehumidifier so it should make your attic dryer. Whether it looks like a pipe organ or a radiator, if it's in the open air it will draw moisture out of the air to be drained away...

What you would need though is a moisture catch under the radiator. A rubber sheet, an old tub, a pool liner, or metal pan would work. And it would need a drain line out a window or down a sewer gas vent. Anyway, I think directing condensation would be more of a concern then general moisture. It would make your attic less moist. Also pipes running to the radiator could be insulated if condensation on them was an issue. But do the pipe in your walls have condensation problems? Probably a little, but usually not enough to concern most people.

Heres another thought. I have an attached garage, with somewhat of an attic. I could EASILY run tubing out there (the pressure tank is on that side of the house (in the basement)??? That way any condensation wouldn't be a problem (no insulation in the garage attic, just plywood)....???

Sounds like a great place for at least a test run. And if your garage gets flooded, at least your wife wouldn't kill you! Seriously, plumbing accidents suck.

Not sure what to think about the second idea.

Well, it does look kinda funny...

I just found out 125 of 3/4 copper pipe ONLY Holds just over 3 gallons of water!!! If i chose to construct something, its going to need a storage tank...

However, as funny as the second design may look, a normal radiator is less likely to leak then a hand built pipe organ and may not need a storage tank. Blowing large volumes of hot air though a normal radiator would transfer much more heat then many other systems. Though the sun is a slow source of energy, the heat in an attic is a huge reservoir of energy like a hot water tank. And radiators can move massive amounts of heat very fast, just like with car radiators.

Some time ago, I was trying a set up similar to this once, only it was with circulated ice/water and a fan in a hot room. It melted a bucket of ice like it had a blowtorch bubbling in it. The ice just melted too fast. So for preheating water with a fan and a radiator, the water might be able to get to a good temperature very fast, possibly at the rate it is drawn though the radiator. Again, think how much heat your car radiator moves. And if the radiator couldn't preheat the water fast enough, you would probably just need to add either a second fan/radiator unit or a water tank as you already planned.

Also with the fan/radiator system, the water could only get so hot. If the air in that attic is 120, the water wouldn't get preheated over 120. The limit on the temp these systems can achieve could also be considered a safety feature. Many systems require a tank to even out the temperature of the water because the water in a solar heater can be too hot to directly use. Water from a fan system would never get "too hot".

Amusingly, all these enclosed solar water heater designs are a lot like mini attics, so using the actual attic as a solar water heater seemed like an amusing turn around to me. Also, I think properly done either of these designs could work pretty well, both designs are radiators just the first design is disguised as a pipe organ. And both designs would work better with a fan.

Anyway, I get that it's hard to know how well these things would work and this may not be the time of year for experimenting. But sometime on a hot day, if you happened on: a car radiator, a fan and a garden hose. You could try this out. I'd be tempted to...

[steam_cannon]

Mythbusters water heater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q

[seahorse]

I'm considering a solar hot water heater. I know nothing about them and no nothing about solar. There's a local guy selling and installing them. His site estimates about $4-$5k. Claims there is a $2k Federal tax credit for this year.

Questions:

(1) Are solar hot water systems any good? Five people in my family. We have two hot water heaters now. I would only install one solar hot water heater.

(2) Will they last a long time?

(3) Are they low maintenance?

(4) Would Arkansas be a good place for them?

Here's the link for the local guy. Any input would be appreciated.

Solar hot water

Here's another local dealer

Solar hot water

What questions should I ask?

[steam_cannon]

Arkansas would be a good place for them and you might ask frankthetank for his thoughts on solar hot water heaters. He's given the subject some thought about building one and had started a thread asking for ideas...

Simplest solar hot water heater setup
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic34317.html

[Gerben]

1. I'm in the Netherlands where such systems are used regularly despite the fact that our climate is colder. It's not common here to build such a system into existing homes due to the installation cost. At $ 100 oil they should be standard in every newly built home. Ask the guy how much you could expect to save (%-wise), then look at your heating bill and start calculating. You could consider it a hedge against rising heating cost.
2. They are said to last long. Someone I know who had one of these systems had it removed within 10 yrs, but newer designs should be more durable.
3. The pump requires regular maintenance. Get a maintenance contract when you buy it.
4. I agree that such systems should be quite usefull in Arkensas.

[alokin]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what climate Arcansas has.
We're living in a subtropical climate and our system is a gravity feed.
The same system was on the apartment house in Athens were we lived. They work perfectly, provided the climate is suitable.
The advantage: no pump which costs electricity and may have failures.
Our system is "Edwards", but you may not know this brand as it is Australian. It has the advantage that the tank is marine grade steel and you don't need to have an anode which must be changed after some years, depending to you water.
They told us that we will have about 85% of our hot water out of this system, but in reality it's much better. We simply switched the electric booster off. We always have enough hot water, after some days of rain we might heat 3 liters for dish washing, but this is much more economic than heating 200 l on the roof. Our electricity use is by half now, from 9 to 4,5 kWh /d, but this was only the first bill, as we are billed three monthly. And you can use the water for the washing machine as well.

[steam_cannon]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what climate Arkansas has.

Like living on the sun. I used to live there.

Normally it's dry with sunny clear skys. It's often so dry that "burn bans" are in effect because grass and everything becomes dangerously dry. It peaked up to 120F a few times, but usually the summer heat is in the 90F - 110F. The winters are mild as is weather much of the year. There are occasional ice storms, tornadoes and wild winds, so many of the trees have lots of broken branches. Buildings and other structures are often damaged by the occasional sever weather. A tornado lifted the roof off the warehouse building near me of the company I worked for. This area of the country is encompassed in a u shaped zone highly preferred by ticks and spiders, cowboy boots help keep the ticks off.

It's long term climate outlook doesn't look very good to me. They will suffer from more droughts and aquifer depletion and more intense temperatures as climate change intensifies. Their cattle industry, grains industries and hay supply situation will continue to get worse and likely vanish due to persistent drought over the next 20-50 years.

Never the less, due to the readily available intense sun, even a poorly made solar water heater would work great. I had a lot of success with building different types of solar cookers. I prefer high efficiency concentrator dishes that can be used for cooking in northern wintertimes. But in Arkansas even a box covered with vinyl with a mirror shining on it will get hot enough to bake bread. So for someone living in Arkansas, any solar water heater should work.

[IslandCrow]

Here in Finland solar water heaters seem to be mostly sold together with oil heating. In one TV program I saw a top executive of a (Finnish) oil company talk about his system, and say that his family managed at least 3 months every summer without having to burn any oil (ie the solar panels provided enough heat for a family's use). So in combination with oil (or even I would guess direct electric heating) they are worth it even in this northern climate.

I didn't go with solar heating panels (to preheat water for the hot water/radiator systems) when I installed ground heat exchange because the payback for the solar panels would have been 20 or so years and I did not have spare money.

When I lived in Nepal we had solar water heaters...they were great and worked most of the winter. They are in effect quite low-tech and so would be easier to maintain / renew than the PV systems, so I see that they should have a great potential in a situation where high-tech factories have difficulty to function.