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THE US Military Thread pt 4 (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 01:08:18

Germans Vigorously Protest Massive British/ NSA Spying on Email, Telephone Calls
The German government has demanded answers from the British state with regard to revelations by Edward Snowden that the British spy agency GCHQ has a program called Tempora that allows it to capture massive amounts of telephone calls and email from transatlantic fiber optic cables that land first in the UK before they extend to continental Europe.

250 US National Security Agency analysts also are assigned full-time to Tempora and 850,000 NSA workers and contractors have access to the gargantuan Tempora database.

Emails between two people inside Germany might nevertheless bounce around the world before being delivered, so that GCHQ could well be scooping up in-country data that happens to come through those cables. They are certainly collecting huge amounts of communications by Americans, but the US media for the most part has buried this story. ( Wired is an exception.)

East Germans were subjected to intensive domestic surveillance by the STASI secret police in the Communist period 1945-1989, and before that the National Socialists were not exactly shy about invading people’s privacy.

Most Germans therefore have special sensitivities about domestic surveillance. Which is a way of saying that they have a lively Fascism Meter, which Americans and the British used to have but it seems to have atrophied.

Eavesdropping on the Planet
German security experts discovered several years ago that ECHELON was engaged in heavy commercial spying in Europe. Victims included such German firms as the wind generator manufacturer Enercon. In 1998, Enercon developed what it thought was a secret invention, enabling it to generate electricity from wind power at a far cheaper rate than before. However, when the company tried to market its invention in the United States, it was confronted by its American rival, Kenetech, which announced that it had already patented a near-identical development. Kenetech then brought a court order against Enercon to ban the sale of its equipment in the US. In a rare public disclosure, an NSA employee, who refused to be named, agreed to appear in silhouette on German television to reveal how he had stolen Enercon’s secrets by tapping the telephone and computer link lines that ran between Enercon’s research laboratory and its production unit some 12 miles away. Detailed plans of the company’s invention were then passed on to Kenetech.

In 1994, Thomson S.A., located in Paris, and Airbus Industrie, based in Blagnac Cedex, France, also lost lucrative contracts, snatched away by American rivals aided by information covertly collected by NSA and CIA. The same agencies also eavesdropped on Japanese representatives during negotiations with the United States in 1995 over auto parts trade.

German industry has complained that it is in a particularly vulnerable position because the government forbids its security services from conducting similar industrial espionage. “German politicians still support the rather naive idea that political allies should not spy on each other’s businesses. The Americans and the British do not have such illusions,” said journalist Udo Ulfkotte, a specialist in European industrial espionage, in 1999.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 01:51:06

Wouldn't that turn out to be a riot if Germany and France end up being the last nations whose governments want their populations to be free, and the ring of the US, UK, China, and Russia impose crushing levels of surveillance both internally and externally.

Somehow, I don't think Germany and France can stand up to such overwhelming economic power for long...
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby careinke » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:52:21

PrestonSturges wrote:
careinke wrote:
PrestonSturges wrote:

Preston.....Go take your meds.
You had to whine about my comment that is on topic?
That's the best kind of response, the kind that that shows I clearly hit a nerve.


You did hit a nerve. I get concerned for people who start spouting delusional paranoid rants. You make lots of good points, then destroy your credibility by going off the deep end.

I apologize for the terse comment, I'm trying to become more positive, just not always successfully. :oops:
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 13:12:06

NC drops federal unemployment insurance funding. For a lot of the goobers on right wing blogs, cutting the social safety net is supposed to be the tipping point that sparks the race war where they get to use their stockpiled guns and ammo.

I'm just saying that in terms of military being used for martial law, this is one of the prominent right wing fantasies. But is this one of the scenarios driving the goober shadow government? Or is financial collapse? Or global warming?
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 14:56:39

PrestonSturges wrote:But is this one of the scenarios driving the [snip] shadow government? Or is financial collapse? Or global warming?


My hunch is that the reality of global warming, in particularl its impact on calorie crop production, is the driver behind most of what the shadow government is up to. Financial collapse and all the rest are tools being employed to set an end game where much of the impoverished world starves or barely manages to purchase 1500kcal /day; while the mass populations in the developed world, and developed cities (eg Beijing) elsewhere, are able to stay comfortably (if unhealthily) fed. The upper echelon is then able to solidify their control and power so as to stay on top of the heap, as the heap sinks into hell.

The idea then being a generation or few forward, that the heap becomes small enough such that the gate to hell seals itself, leaving a damaged and diminished Earth, with sufficient remaining resources and productivity, to be the inheritance of the elite and their operator tag-alongs.

I suspect the more recent fretting over methanapocalyptico or NTE is arising from tag-alongs and elites who still have a conscience, trying to dissuade those in charge away from the path they have chosen. I suspect they will be unsuccessful; because unlike the denial drones rambling painfully everywhere, those making the decisions know the science and are using the science to position themselves to be on top of that sinking heap.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 15:44:06

I think these regional kingdoms include a "Grapes Of Wrath" scenario where the unemployed are promptly turned into refugees oh hobos or maybe allowed to live in tents and pick lettuce under armed guards.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby Pops » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 17:40:30

I honestly think the government is venturing into intrusive surveillance tactics simply because that is what authorities do when given a new toy, when was the last time you heard a human say, 'naw, I don't want more power.'

They had a huge opening on 9/11 and they took it without a fight while we went shopping.

But things change. Sometimes slow and sometimes remarkably fast. This is an authoritarian country, we want to snoop in each other's business but there is an opposing civil libertarian streak and it crosses the right/left divide.

I can see, for the first time, room for a strong run from civil libertarians with moderate views on economics and social programs.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby Loki » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 22:47:21

Preston, fascism (using the “merger of state and corporate power” definition) in the United States is much more banal than the fringe right-wing fantasies you're trotting out. It's Google colluding with the NSA to control our information, one for profit, one for power. Hyperpartisanship among the proles is irrelevant to this discussion, the power of the surveillance state will be used against “terrorists” of all political persuasions.

Agent, I don't have the confidence you do that the power elite are actually concerned about climate change. Maybe some of them, but I'd bet the elite are just as divided as the peasants on climate change, peak oil, etc., at least those who bother to even think about such matters. I doubt “they” sit around and scheme about saving their own asses while the masses die off (sounds an awful lot like the Smoking Man and his cohorts in X-Files, now I think about it).

But maybe they do, not like I rub shoulders with them while I'm pruning tomatoes.

More likely, I think, is that most of the elite assume technology will save the day, if they have any concern at all about our future (which most probably don't). Watch some TED talks to see the “job creator” class's child-like techno-optimism and obsession with irrelevancies. It's disturbing.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 23:28:25

Loki wrote:Agent, I don't have the confidence you do that the power elite are actually concerned about climate change. Maybe some of them, but I'd bet the elite are just as divided as the peasants on climate change, peak oil, etc., at least those who bother to even think about such matters. I doubt “they” sit around and scheme about saving their own asses while the masses die off (sounds an awful lot like the Smoking Man and his cohorts in X-Files, now I think about it).


I always give out the wrong impression when I describe this, so I'll reveal my antiquiness by referring to the ancient Asimov Foundation series. Its not so much that the course of these future historic events are planned by the powers, but rather that their natural behavior and reactions proceeds along a predictable path to a predictable end. I don't mean to imply some secret society huddle, laying out a grand design, and following up with perfect execution. But rather, something along the same lines as ants building an ant hill. It is just what they do, their natural behavior, following localized stimulus results in a mound of dirt in my yard. They don't set out to make a mound. They simply set out to live. Now, I'm not claiming to read future history with the precision of the Foundation, but I think the principle applies well enough to where we are today.

More likely, I think, is that most of the elite assume technology will save the day, if they have any concern at all about our future...


Save the day for themselves at least, but when you're on camera or in public, you generally try to generalize that salvation. I can't go out and say, "There's this awesome tech that does this, and that, and it will provide my Liege and by association me and mine, comfort and luxury, while the rest of you guys eek out an existence...." No, you say, "This amazing technology will provide a secure and comfortable future for us all...".
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby Loki » Fri 28 Jun 2013, 23:51:54

Can't disagree with that, Agent, sounds about right. Like Kunstler, I'm allergic to conspiracy theories, but I do agree that most social phenomena happen organically.

But to argue against myself, and get back to the OP, there clearly is a contingent of the power elite that is concerned about social disorder in the wake of massive natural or economic disasters. The recent revelations about the surveillance state are likely just the tip of the iceberg. One wonders what some of the more "enlightened" corporate captains muse to themselves in the privacy of their own offices.

Right now the NSA and other fedgov agencies appear to be seeking control over mere "metadata" (if one believes mainstream reports, which I don't), while corporate interests are allegedly only interested in usage data so they can sell you stuff. But the authoritarian applications of such power are obvious.

Which reminds me, I need to read that copy of 1984 I checked out from the library last weekend, been too long since I sat at Orwell's feet :lol:
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 29 Jun 2013, 00:46:03

Will the Real Traitors Please Stand Up?
The stuck pig squeals from the NSA director–”Edward Snowden has caused irreversible damage to US”–are matched by the obliging squeals from members of the House and Senate, themselves victims of the NSA spying, as was the Director of the CIA who was forced to resign because of a love affair. The NSA is in position to blackmail everyone in the House and Senate, in the White House itself, in all the corporations, the universities, the media, every organization at home and abroad, who has anything to hide. You can tell who is being blackmailed by the intensity of the squeals, such as those of Dianne Feinstein (D, CA) and Mike Rogers (R, MI). With any luck, a patriot will leak what the NSA has on Feinstein and Rogers, neither of whom could possibly scrape any lower before the NSA.

The gangster government in Washington that has everything to hide is now in NSA’s hands and will follow orders. The pretense that amerika is a democracy responsible to the people has been exposed. The US is run by and for the NSA. Congress and the White House are NSA puppets.

Let’s quit calling the NSA the National Security Agency. Clearly, NSA is a threat to the security of every person in the entire world. Let’s call the NSA what it really is–the National Stasi Agency, the largest collection of Gestapo in human history. You can take for granted that every media whore, every government prostitute, every ignorant flag-waver who declares Snowden to be a traitor is either brainwashed or blackmailed. They are the protectors of NSA tyranny. They are our enemies.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 29 Jun 2013, 12:48:26

The other question is does the "dissent" come from the left or the right. Of course, in American society, it's only a slight exaggeration to say anyone not wearing a Klan robe is described as "the left."

Right wing mass movements are often driven by the idea that they are battling sexual anarchy. The Nazis for instance drew much of their popular support from people who were worried about the intermarriage of Jews and Gentiles, and this was actually a huge issue. Prostitution and pornography were also concerns.

Likewise, look at the most backwards Islamic countries - there's little or no concern in Afghanistan about whether the people starve in a drought or drown in a flood, but the morality police will keep patrolling the streets. Not to be too smug about this, because the same thing happened on Cromwell's England and in the New England where the Puritans were in charge.

In America, the most fanatical conservatives are driven by sex (abortion and homosexuality and a weird obsession with "rape"). But this seems to be mostly limited to the Untied States and Muslim countries. Public dissent in the EU and Brazil isn't being driven by the populations' weird obsession with sex. Nobody in Rio is rioting because bathing suits are too skimpy. The gripes are economic. It's only in the US and Muslim countries that popular dissent is likely go sideways because the public is distracted by the "shiny object" of other peoples' sex lives, and in Muslim countries this is used to great effect by dictators. Notice that in US, the GOP is focused almost exclusively on sex?
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 29 Jun 2013, 12:58:31

....and of course the most direct way to stifle public dissent is to just ban voting. Expect a wave of voter laws just before the next election. In fact, expect voter bans to become a feature of every election as the GOP disenfranchises millions in each election cycle.

Target students especially. If they protest, throw them out of school and give them criminal records and then use the conviction to give them a life time ban on voting as long as they are in that state. And so voting becomes another tool of ethnic cleansing.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sat 29 Jun 2013, 14:05:55

Preston, while I think a lot of the stuff you write goes off the deep end, especially about voting, there is one thing you are hitting on that I think folks should give some serious thought to. Has anyone given thought to the world that might be if evangelicals and fundamentalist muslims figure out that they belong on the same side? Aside from nomenclature, and perhaps a christian laity tendency towards skimpier clothing, there really isn't a whole lot of difference in day to day practice and opinion. A realignment would really disrupt the playing field in radical ways....

I still think you're off the mark on voting, GOP wants every CITIZEN to prove they're identity and residency and then vote, and vote only once. The problem arises of course with the libertarian nuts who hate ID cards, so I don't know if it can ever be truly fixed.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 29 Jun 2013, 14:29:51

I expect to see some very aggressive moves to disenfranchise the vote of college students just hours before the next presidential elections, as well as the usual tactics of moving the polling places at the last second to new locations miles away and nowhere near public transportation. In several states, this would probably be enough to swing the state to the GOP.

Five years ago when I said these goobers would try to ban contraception, people said that was crazy talk. And last years I warned people that the state GOP candidates talk about economic issues was just a Trojan Horse to get into office and focus on sex, race, and religion.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby Oneaboveall » Sun 30 Jun 2013, 00:15:10

Before will condemn Preston as "going off the deep end", we should look at these first:

Would you be shocked to learn that the FBI apparently knew that some organization, perhaps even a law enforcement agency or private security outfit, had contingency plans to assassinate peaceful protesters in a major American city — and did nothing to intervene?


http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/06/27/fbi-do ... necessary/

If that source is too far out for you, check out HuffPo on Michael Hastings' death:

Hours before dying in a fiery car crash, award-winning journalist Michael Hastings sent an email to his colleagues, warning that federal authorities were interviewing his friends and that he needed to go "off the rada[r]" for a bit...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/2 ... 84118.html

I'm a little unnerved by all this and I hope others are as well.

And before someone mentions it:
Of course, the fact that one of the people at the scene was a fully dressed Hasidic Jew (trying to put the fire out with a garden house) gave everyone on Stormfront woodys, but let's not go there.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 30 Jun 2013, 02:06:08

I don't put much stock in Huff..

To the facts, obviously stressed out human, driving in car, a 2000+ lb metal device loaded with ~100 lbs of explosives (aka gasoline), has accident, with fire, and dies.

Its a cause and effect problem. Did some great conspiracy assassinate the guy, or did the guy's fear of this faceless conspiracy cause him to operate the vehicle in a less than safe and proficient manner. Personally, I don't think the answer is knowable.

A lot of "conspiracy" events are like this too, a competition between user failure, or intentional malice, with nothing really except the reader's initial bias to discern between them.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby Pops » Sun 30 Jun 2013, 08:47:47

RESTORE THE FOURTH TO HOLD PROTESTS ON JULY 4TH FOR FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS
United States of America (June 18, 2013) —

Restore the Fourth is a grassroots, non-partisan, non-violent movement that seeks to organize and assemble nationwide protests on July 4th, 2013. Protesters in over 100 cities across America will gather to demand that the government of the United States of America adhere to its constitutionally dictated limits and respect the Fourth Amendment. http://www.RestoretheFourth.net provides a detailed list of protest locations.
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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Sun 30 Jun 2013, 20:26:57

Let’s quit calling the NSA the National Security Agency. Clearly, NSA is a threat to the security of every person in the entire world. Let’s call the NSA what it really is–the National Stasi Agency, the largest collection of Gestapo in human history. You can take for granted that every media whore, every government prostitute, every ignorant flag-waver who declares Snowden to be a traitor is either brainwashed or blackmailed. They are the protectors of NSA tyranny. They are our enemies.


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Re: Pentagon bracing for public dissent over climate and ene

Unread postby dsula » Sun 30 Jun 2013, 20:45:57

PrestonSturges wrote:
In America, the most fanatical conservatives are driven by sex ....


What can a conservative do nowadays in America an Europe? The important stuff is indoctrinated to be politically incorrect.
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