[shortonsense]

Economics. A penny saved is a penny earned. This truism has been around longer than you and I have been alive....?

Frugality and wise use of resources will be one of the tenants of a new cultural paradigm. You have just stated one of it's commandments which will be embraced by successful transition towns.

This is a "religion" (we are just playing with this word) of practical responses to the consequences of economic decline which unlike past recessions is a symptom of the deeper ecological reality of overshoot.

Baloney. We haven't overshot anything, blame the recessions on whatever you might like, but maneuvering from twittering idiots signing away on a mortgage document in the hopes of their ponzi scheme in housing succeeding to carrying capacity root causes isn't just a stretch, its a hallucination.

The old virtuous values of hard work, frugality, civic engagement, serving your community will be part of this new meme that will put a final lid on the coffin of the self indulgence of the individual we have witnessed of the past 50 years.

Jesus it sounds like you are bible thumping your way right into a decent communist society at this point. Individuals bad, something else ( Transition Town? ) good. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of those old virtues being exactly why I can laugh my way through this particular recession, but I certainly didn't learn them from a Transition Town, I certainly don't need a Transition Town to teach me how to properly raise my children with the same ideals, and I certainly don't think they have anything to do with a powerdown requirement unless its purely economic in nature, in which case I will react appropriately all by myself without a Transition Town speech, tablet, website or lecture required to point out the obvious to me.

I have recently read a book some of you might find interesting on this topic of the cycle of generations and how this sheds light on how the current generations passing through crisis will lead to a more civic society; The Fourth Turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe. It never even touches on the topic of peak oil or ecological overshoot. But I found reading it while keeping the greater ecological picture in the back of your mind to be quite a powerful combination.

Something I might be able to acquire at my local library perhaps?

[thuja]

Actually to further add on to SOS's comments, I think anyone concerned with energy efficiency and adapting to increasingly expensive energy should not only be labeled a "cultie" but probably should be fined or imprisoned if they become too vehement. These folks are obviously not just nutters, they endanger the fabric of our civilized world. With their incessant talk of solar panels and well insulated houses, its obvious this lunatic fringe could be a threat to normal society.

Just think, first it will be clothes hung on a line, then it will be a Maoist totalitarian state where everyone will bow down before icons of Al Gore and be required to sing kumbaya at sunset. Slippery slope my friends, slippery slope...

[Ibon]

Something I might be able to acquire at my local library perhaps?

I just read the book and checked it out of the Seattle Public Library. I didn't buy it for myself, I went to a community resource

[Ibon]

Unlike the Baby Boomers, who are largely individualistic and anti-establishment, the Millennials are good team players.]

Wouldn't want anyone going against the status quo. Uh uh.

That is a typical status quo baby boomer comment.

[Ludi]

Yeah, that's me, the typical status quo Baby Boomer.

Yep.

[mos6507]

My response has been twofold, 1) use less in terms of absolute volume ( which means I stabilize my cost in this regard ) and 2) advance my academic training and experience in such a way as to make more money so that even stabilized fuel costs go down as a percentage of my income. #2 has been much more effective than #1 in terms of $$.

So your advice is basically, every man for himself? People shouldn't join together? Anything that espouses a lack of faith in the continuation of BAU is hysterical alarmism?

Then what do you think of roccman heading for the bunker?

I know very well what I'm talking about. Which is why I tend to irritate people sometimes.

Show, don't tell.

And you consider discounts on Prius's to be "thinking of something"?

Do you have a link for that? What transition towners do is their own business, really. If they want to do stupid things that won't help, it will at least be their own ideas borne out of the stakeholders of their immediate community. I've been outspoken, for instance, about Totnes' nut tree plantings because they haven't yet worked out a way to protect and share the harvest. But that is Totnes' problem, not mine. If they aren't bothered by it, it's not for me to judge.

Transition seems to think open spaces "unleases the collective genius" of the community. I can't really say whether that's true or not, but whatever it does produce will be their own creation. People feel empowered by this in a way that conventional politics does not.

Not in the least. I might join just to get the discount. Maybe my local group needs a peak oil expert to explain it to them, I certainly can do that pretty well.

There was a similar (less troll-like) anti-Transition thread over at Malthusia which is actually what convinced me to take the training course in Montpelier. There are too many people such as yourself who want to make a quick judgment of what it is and what it's good for.

[mos6507]

I certainly don't need a Transition Town to teach me how to properly raise my children with the same ideals, and I certainly don't think they have anything to do with a powerdown requirement unless its purely economic in nature, in which case I will react appropriately all by myself without a Transition Town speech, tablet, website or lecture required to point out the obvious to me.

Then don't get involved. But don't treat TT's like it's some sort of blight on the community.

[shortonsense]

Something I might be able to acquire at my local library perhaps?

I just read the book and checked it out of the Seattle Public Library. I didn't buy it for myself, I went to a community resource

I do the same. "The Partys Over" being the most recent....

[shortonsense]

My response has been twofold, 1) use less in terms of absolute volume ( which means I stabilize my cost in this regard ) and 2) advance my academic training and experience in such a way as to make more money so that even stabilized fuel costs go down as a percentage of my income. #2 has been much more effective than #1 in terms of $$.

So your advice is basically, every man for himself?

You have a problem with the most basic precepts of personal responsibility? First we accept responsibility for ourselves, we hew to a straight line, we consumer less and find happiness in family and things which aren't plastic and assembled in China.

People shouldn't join together? Anything that espouses a lack of faith in the continuation of BAU is hysterical alarmism?

I certainly never said that. And if you take a group of over consuming, mortgage refinancing nitwits who feel guilty over their inability to lower their ecological footprint by themselves and figure that joining some club will assuage their off-hours lifestyles of ATM re-fi, motorsports and globe trotting via jet as part of their day to day economic/business life, you think the effort of joining the Town means anything physical or real?

Then what do you think of roccman heading for the bunker?

I think RocMan is a crackpot. He thought the grid was going to crash what, years ago? You and I, still using electricity to post..imagine that. He ran for the bunker in October 2008 and has been embarrassed to show himself in full form since then. Do you actually think he quit his job and hid for the months he was prepared for? Do you think he was surprised that when he came out, if he had put his money in the stock market he would have made a killing? When the stock market by then was supposed to have disappeared? Have you noticed he hasn't said anything about finding another job...maybe because his entire masquerade never happened...but he's afraid to lose Doomer cred by admitting it?

Transition seems to think open spaces "unleases the collective genius" of the community. I can't really say whether that's true or not, but whatever it does produce will be their own creation. People feel empowered by this in a way that conventional politics does not.

Sounds like religion. With parks. Parks are good.

There was a similar (less troll-like) anti-Transition thread over at Malthusia which is actually what convinced me to take the training course in Montpelier. There are too many people such as yourself who want to make a quick judgment of what it is and what it's good for.

So when Carolyn Baker scrammed from possibly that very same town because of the horrifying carcinogens in the water ( she says ) she did so for good reason?

[shortonsense]

I certainly don't need a Transition Town to teach me how to properly raise my children with the same ideals, and I certainly don't think they have anything to do with a powerdown requirement unless its purely economic in nature, in which case I will react appropriately all by myself without a Transition Town speech, tablet, website or lecture required to point out the obvious to me.

Then don't get involved. But don't treat TT's like it's some sort of blight on the community.

I don't, and I haven't. If there was one next door to my house, and they were busy growing things and teaching others to grow things, having meetings to preach the way and meaning of life, whatever, I say more power to them. And the Boy Scouts, who seem to have been in on this overall idea alot sooner.

But if getting involved means some extra discount on an efficient car...well.....then it may be worth my while to get involved, I could easily teach some peak oil classes in exchange for membership.

[Ludi]

Where does the Transition Town movement indicate it preaches the meaning of life?

I'm pretty ignorant about the whole thing, so I don't know. This is a question. Please link to a statement of the meaning of life according to Transition Town and some examples of them preaching it.

Thanks.

[shortonsense]

Where does the Transition Town movement indicate it preaches the meaning of life?

I'm pretty ignorant about the whole thing, so I don't know. This is a question. Please link to a statement of the meaning of life according to Transition Town and some examples of them preaching it.

Thanks.

http://www.transitiontowns.org/

"if we collectively plan and act early enough there's every likelihood that we can create a way of living that's significantly more connected, more vibrant and more in touch with our environment than the oil-addicted treadmill that we find ourselves on today."

I don't know about you, but thats a kum-bye-yah statement if I ever saw one.

In touch with the environment? I've got an uncle who communes with nature....he would be PERFECT for this type of stuff.....been in a commune...literally, for decades now.

[Ludi]

"if we collectively plan and act early enough there's every likelihood that we can create a way of living that's significantly more connected, more vibrant and more in touch with our environment than the oil-addicted treadmill that we find ourselves on today."

Seems kind of vague. "more vibrant" not sure what that means, actually. But those kinds of statements don't usually resonate much with me. On the other hand, it doesn't seem especially "preachy."

Now this is probably more preachy than the Transition Town movement, and actually religious:

http://www.creationcare.org/

[shortonsense]

"if we collectively plan and act early enough there's every likelihood that we can create a way of living that's significantly more connected, more vibrant and more in touch with our environment than the oil-addicted treadmill that we find ourselves on today."

Seems kind of vague.

You think any of the great religions grabs you by the throat upon your first visit to their church and screams in your face, spittle flying, "YOU MUST COMPLY WITH WHAT I TELL YOU...OR YOU SHALL BURN!!!!!" ?

Nope. Its the soft sell up front....kum-bye-yah, eco-this, green-that, "hows your Prius driving?"....and then slowly they reel you in. You've never seen any of these guys selling their wares on your front doorstep before?

[Revi]

C'mon SOS, join our cult. You get to drive the prius.

If we really believe we'll all be whisked up to the perfect eco-town.

In our heaven it's always June in Boulder.

[shortonsense]

C'mon SOS, join our cult. You get to drive the prius.

If we really believe we'll all be whisked up to the perfect eco-town.

In our heaven it's always June in Boulder.

Your offer is tempting. Peace, love, (maybe) dope, just like the 60's!! Except without the cheap oil prevalent during the time of course.

I'm not sure what the wife would think though, if I suddenly stopped using the solicitors stopping by the front door as foils against which to do verbal combat, and instead invited them inside for some kum-bye-yah'ing and eggplant casserole.

I like the attire though. Any chance that the odds of well endowed younger females looking for wise, older and grayer males ( think....Gandalf before the Balrock ) is higher than among the general population?

[Revi]

Anything is possible, if you believe.

Transition may be a lot more fun than you think.

I was thinking as we walked around in a snowstorm today that it's fun to get to know people in your own town.

We went down to the marketplace and ate some lunch and hung out with people who are selling all sorts of cool stuff.

We were offered a space to have a transition presence in the marketplace.

It could be catching on.

[shortonsense]

Anything is possible, if you believe.

Not so sure about that...peak oil certainly hasn't worked out for the zombie and dieoff enthusiasts, and for some time they certainly did appear to believe.

Transition may be a lot more fun than you think.

Hence the question about the women.

I was thinking as we walked around in a snowstorm today that it's fun to get to know people in your own town.

Where I grew up, I was related to the whole town. I like it better now, anonymous in suburbia. But anonymous among Transition Town members ( prior conditions I mentioned being applicable ) might be okay as well.

We were offered a space to have a transition presence in the marketplace.

It could be catching on.

Hey, if its marketing on the Prius discounts can get me considering a membership, it darn well might be!

[Ibon]

Here on the actual down-slope, folks are concerned with employment, feeding the family, drinking, drugs, parties and in-laws. Without the aquiesence, approval, and support of the federal government and prioties I see gradual and eventual dissolution of the national state to various fiefdoms, boroughs etc.

If your forecast of fiefdoms and boroughs come to pass then maybe some of the transition towns eventually become absorbed into this fragmented and broken up nation state. Folks are confronting early consequences. In a few years the ones you mention above will have only gotten worse . A few pages back on this thread I mentioned the following

Upcoming consequences will shake up everyones ideologies. Those today who present transition towns as an ideological alternative will be shaken up along with everyone else. Nobody will be spared getting thrown out of their comfort zones. That is a hallmark of transition.

Nobody is going to move through the upcoming crisis with their ideologies intact including these pioneer attempts preparing for the transition. Crisis will morph these early attempts at transition towns into something unrecognizable today.

Enjoy the stability we still have today but be ready to embrace further crisis.

We cannot foresee what will happen and anticipate events. Each to choose. Nobody posting on this thread can claim to have a superior strategy going forward.

We each have to make our own decisions. Shortonsense might be right and things wont dissolve so deeply into chaos in the near future. That is not how I read the big picture but who the hell really knows.

I have always trusted my intuition. It has served me well in the days I journeyed deep into the wilderness and it served me well when I was in business. It is serving me well once again I hope in the direction I have chosen.

But with all humility and deep respect I might just very well be deluded. I doubt it but it is a possibility.

When I read the posts of folks dismayed by what Shortonsense believes and then being pissed off at him I can only interpret this as fear and doubt and a lack of conviction of ones own assumption of coming chaos. After all if he is right then all this mitigation is kind of foolish. The trend is your friend right. Stability has been around for 60 years. This is just a blip on the road. I could be really deluded believing in the upcoming crisis.

When I read the reaction Shortonsense has toward folks attempting transition and read how incredulous he is than I interpret this as a person who also doubts his own assumptions about the stability of society going forward and that it will hold together enough to carry him forward. He claims no connection between a mortgage crisis that lead to a recession and climate change and peak oil. On the surface he is right but he also knows that under the surface there is a rumbling. He isn't 100% confident that his paradigm will hold together or why else would he be drawn back again and again to debate here? Something is nagging him I assume.

Good luck in these debates going forward. I am unplugging from this medium again for a couple of months. No internet where I am heading.

Cheers.


P.S. We know that we are all well into a transition when we all have a healthy doubt about our own grip on reality.