[Fergus]

One thing I have wondered about. for a long time now since we started throwing satellites out into space. PO has added to my wondering. Anyone with basic or even advanced astronomical eperience have any idea about this?

Earth has a natural mass. Does the mass have anything to with how and where we orbit the sun, our rotation (day/night cycles). Now I am wondering if mass loss from the earth will have any effect on the earths orbit. Consider we throw millions of tons of marterial into space, making the earth lighter. We extract million, maybe billions of tons of oil and NG out of the ground and do nothing to replace this mass and its gone when we burn it.

Kinda like we are lighter now and get pulled towards the sun, or lose our orbital inertia and end up flying out of the solar system totally.

If you took all the material we have burnt to nothing. Ejected into space (off the earth physically and thus a mass loss) in satellites etc... would that have any impact on the earths ability to maintain its rotational orbit around the sun un-impacted?

Can we screw up earths orbit causing it to fly out of its orbit or stop rotating within its orbit, by lossing mass of the earth? I am just wondering if maybe we are killing our planet in an unobvious way. I can see how we are killing our planet ecologically speaking. But what about astronomically speaking. Anyone have any insight to this or does earth mass not play into the orbital equations.

[Carlhole]

Ha! That mass is like a mosquito fart compared to the mass of the extraterrestrial dust that settles to earth constantly - 40,000 tons of it per year.

“Asteroid Dust” by: Nancy Marie Brown (Research/Penn State, Vol. 20, no. 1 (January, 1999))

...Perhaps, but Olsson is not looking for just any dust. His is interplanetary dust, zodiacal dust, the dust that sifts slowly down through our atmosphere some 25,000 years after it rubs off an asteroid bumped by a pebble-sized rock out beyond the orbit of Mars. This dust accumulates on Earth today at the rate of 40,000 tons per year – an estimate based on the haul of a U2 airplane cruising the stratosphere. “Since it’s so small,” Olsson says, meaning a single mote of asteroid dust, “it comes in very slowly, compared, for instance, to a meteorite. It stays high in the stratosphere for quite a while. It never gets tremendous acceleration, so it never burns up.”

Ages and ages ago, when the asteroid belt was busier, the rocks larger and colliding more often, the influx could have been much, much higher. High enough, maybe, to have affected Earth’s climate, or to have introduced organic molecules or metals that helped or hindered early life. These are the questions that fascinate Olsson, an astronomer turned geoscientist (“I’ve been called a ‘physical-astro-bio-geo-chemist,’” he jokes). “Apart from sunlight,” he says, “this is the single most important interaction we have with space. This is the channel between the Solar System and Planet Earth.”

[skeptic]

Earth has a natural mass. Does the mass have anything to with how and where we orbit the sun, our rotation (day/night cycles).

Not sure what you mean by 'natural', but the Earths mass is the balance between what escapes from the atmosphere - mainly the lighter gasses Hydrogen and Helium and what falls into the atmosphere - meteors (stuff that vaporises on entry) and meteorites ( solids that make it to the surface. The rate at which we 'sweep' space in our orbit I would think has some relationship to the fate of infall.

I vaguely rember that there is thought to be an net gain of a few thousand tonnes per annum. In terms of the overall mass of the earth - miniscule.

Can we screw up earths orbit causing it to fly out of its orbit or stop rotating within its orbit, by lossing mass of the earth?

er..no.

Our effect on the mass of the Earth would be similar to a fly trying to push over the Empire State Building. Or probably less.

[SoothSayer]

Can we screw up earths orbit causing it to fly out of its orbit or stop rotating within its orbit, by lossing mass of the earth? I am just wondering if maybe we are killing our planet in an unobvious way. I can see how we are killing our planet ecologically speaking. But what about astronomically speaking. Anyone have any insight to this or does earth mass not play into the orbital equations.

This post is funny on so many levels. It illustrates a complete lack of understanding of multiple facets of science.

There was recently a call on The Oil Drum for improved mathematical skills.

I think that the poster was sick of seeing posts which clearly showed little comprehension of basic maths, physics, statistics or probability.

Many, many people seem to be totally unaware that their surmises etc are Orders Of Magnitude in error. This is very scary indeed ...

I was in a cafe a couple of days ago, listening to a pair of workmen discussing vacation aircraft journeys. It was like a comedy sketch ... 2000 mile per hour flights and other Orders Of Magnitude errors flying like a snowstorm, plus total lack of knowledge of physics.

I suspect that many posts here are based on a similar poor framework.

[Fergus]

Can we screw up earths orbit causing it to fly out of its orbit or stop rotating within its orbit, by lossing mass of the earth? I am just wondering if maybe we are killing our planet in an unobvious way. I can see how we are killing our planet ecologically speaking. But what about astronomically speaking. Anyone have any insight to this or does earth mass not play into the orbital equations.

This post is funny on so many levels. It illustrates a complete lack of understanding of multiple facets of science.

I am not a scientist. Maybe thats where my problem lies. Sorry, next lifetime I will be a scientist.

[mekrob]

I am not a scientist. Maybe thats where my problem lies. Sorry, next lifetime I will be a scientist.

Since when did you have to be a scientist to know anything about science? Are you a petroleum engineer or geologist? No, then get the hell off of this site. Put that fork down if you aren't a farmer. Get off the computer if you can program. Live on the ground if you can't make a bed. Get out of your house if you didn't build it. Er, you get where I'm going with this.

And if you burn something, it doesn't turn into nothing. You just completely missed some of the most fundamental and easiest to understand principles of science.

I'm with KingM. I've left more intelligence in the toilet than there is in this topic.

[SoothSayer]

Can we screw up earths orbit causing it to fly out of its orbit or stop rotating within its orbit, by lossing mass of the earth? I am just wondering if maybe we are killing our planet in an unobvious way. I can see how we are killing our planet ecologically speaking. But what about astronomically speaking. Anyone have any insight to this or does earth mass not play into the orbital equations.

This post is funny on so many levels. It illustrates a complete lack of understanding of multiple facets of science.

I am not a scientist. Maybe thats where my problem lies. Sorry, next lifetime I will be a scientist.

Sorry Fergus, I was a bit harsh. Feel free to ask questions!

At least you are honest with us ... you are not pretending to be a wizz oil geologist or anything!

[Fergus]

I am not a scientist. Maybe thats where my problem lies. Sorry, next lifetime I will be a scientist.

Since when did you have to be a scientist to know anything about science? Are you a petroleum engineer or geologist? No, then get the hell off of this site. Put that fork down if you aren't a farmer. Get off the computer if you can program. Live on the ground if you can't make a bed. Get out of your house if you didn't build it. Er, you get where I'm going with this.

And if you burn something, it doesn't turn into nothing. You just completely missed some of the most fundamental and easiest to understand principles of science.

I'm with KingM. I've left more intelligence in the toilet than there is in this topic.

Well then lets see you solve all the worlds problems mr smartypants. Your so cool, one wonders why your not a hollywood A list person? Maybe its that bad attitude and smart ass personality you have!

I am sure I could have found the answer on my own, call me lazy, I deserve that. But dont dare insult my intelligence. Your no better then I am and I am sure I understand somethings you dont, as you have established here that you understand certain things I dont.

I dont mind admitting I have no expertise or even knowledge of a subject if I dont possess it. Does this make me less of a person? Does this make my life invalid and not worthy of continuing? Let me know so I can do the right thing.

PS. I can make one hell of a bed, you sure I still dont need to sleep on the floor anyways, can stupid pple sleep in beds? That wont offend you would it, if a lesser being then yourself actually slept in a bed that he could make.

[mekrob]

Well then lets see you solve all the worlds problems mr smartypants

Do I have to show you? Or can I just do it when you're not looking? What time are you available?

I dont mind admitting I have no expertise or even knowledge of a subject if I dont possess it. Does this make me less of a person?

Not at all, but..

I am sure I could have found the answer on my own, call me lazy, I deserve that

doesn't really help you out much.

That wont offend you would it, if a lesser being then yourself actually slept in a bed that he could make.

Not at all. Notice I said "if". Besides, you completely missed the point of that paragraph in which I was arguing your statement.

But dont dare insult my intelligence.

I'm able to separate people from their actions pretty easily. If someone messes up once, it's not a complete reflection of that person. Therefore, I make sure to not direct my words at a person, but instead their actions, yours being this topic. I was attacking the intelligence in the topic, not in your head.

[Fergus]

Well then lets see you solve all the worlds problems mr smartypants

Do I have to show you? Or can I just do it when you're not looking? What time are you available?

I dont mind admitting I have no expertise or even knowledge of a subject if I dont possess it. Does this make me less of a person?

Not at all, but..

I am sure I could have found the answer on my own, call me lazy, I deserve that

doesn't really help you out much.

That wont offend you would it, if a lesser being then yourself actually slept in a bed that he could make.

Not at all. Notice I said "if". Besides, you completely missed the point of that paragraph in which I was arguing your statement.

But dont dare insult my intelligence.

I'm able to separate people from their actions pretty easily. If someone messes up once, it's not a complete reflection of that person. Therefore, I make sure to not direct my words at a person, but instead their actions, yours being this topic. I was attacking the intelligence in the topic, not in your head.

ok fair enough. But I have noticed a condisending tone in your posts before. Just remember, this is a new issue for somepple and I have only been aware since like early 2006. I am asking questions here cause I respect a lot of opinions here. You guys are more aware and have looked at trends longer, have experience in the industry and such. I am just trying to get enough verified facts on SO MANY issues all at once, all while trying to maintain a regular family life and deal with work issues etc...

its a lot to put on ones plate when ones full time occupation is not about peak oil. Still sorting out facts and lies and misconceptiosn and misinformation. I guess I miss the mark sometimes.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way. Even here I fear getting a doomerist label, I dont wanna be a bummer to be around. And till I know what I know and what I am gunna do about it, I become preoccupied on that issue till resolved. My apoligies Mek if I reacted inappropriately.

Infact this is much like a trainwreck about to happen, You know you dont wanna see it happen, but its just so fancinating and compelling that you cant avert your eyes from the tragedy about to unfold.

[MonteQuest]

Stay on topic! This is not a 911 thread.

[jlpicard2]

The short answer to your question is that there is absolutely nothing to worry about regarding your concerns.

One thing I have wondered about. for a long time now since we started throwing satellites out into space. PO has added to my wondering. Anyone with basic or even advanced astronomical eperience have any idea about this?

Earth has a natural mass. Does the mass have anything to with how and where we orbit the sun, our rotation (day/night cycles). Now I am wondering if mass loss from the earth will have any effect on the earths orbit. Consider we throw millions of tons of marterial into space, making the earth lighter. We extract million, maybe billions of tons of oil and NG out of the ground and do nothing to replace this mass and its gone when we burn it.

Kinda like we are lighter now and get pulled towards the sun, or lose our orbital inertia and end up flying out of the solar system totally.

If you took all the material we have burnt to nothing. Ejected into space (off the earth physically and thus a mass loss) in satellites etc... would that have any impact on the earths ability to maintain its rotational orbit around the sun un-impacted?

Can we screw up earths orbit causing it to fly out of its orbit or stop rotating within its orbit, by lossing mass of the earth? I am just wondering if maybe we are killing our planet in an unobvious way. I can see how we are killing our planet ecologically speaking. But what about astronomically speaking. Anyone have any insight to this or does earth mass not play into the orbital equations.

[rwwff]

One thing I have wondered about. for a long time now since we started throwing satellites out into space. PO has added to my wondering. Anyone with basic or even advanced astronomical eperience have any idea about this?

There have been very, very, very few space craft that have left the earth/moon system. Long term, orbits do change in various signficant ways, but the loss of mass from human launched space craft isn't one of the factors.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Fergus,
You had commited about 20 orders of magnitude error.
It is like if you suspect (being a bank manager), that your client has $100 000 000 000 000 000 000 in his wealth and you gave him according loan, but on the end it was found out, that he had only $1.

[grabby]

Can we screw up earths orbit causing it to fly out of its orbit or stop rotating within its orbit, by lossing mass of the earth?

Sure, why not? We screw up everything else

I mean, mad scientists monkey with genes at random and modify the basic gene pool of all our edible plants and then release them in the wild just to see what happens, why not?

Might as well throw the earth out of orbit while we're at it.

A fly landing and taking off on an excarpment will be noticeble by the earth.

The smallest change is the heisenburg uncertainty unit 1x10^-32 and a fly landing on the earth will change its mass Billions and billions and trillions of times more than the smallest noticeable unit. sure a fly could start a chain reaction that leads to the largest earthquake in the world.


, but don't worry about our orbit, that would take a while to show up and you wont be around to see the effect of the satellite mass loss.

So stop worrying about earth orbit and get back to what is going to finish us off.

[Fergus]

{Edited by MQ-Do not post unnecessary text}So stop worrying about earth orbit and get back to what is going to finish us off.

well, its not like I am sitting here shaking cause I am afraid. It was a question asked in wonderment of the grand scheme of things. When you think aboutthe question. Does it really deserve such redicule? Or are we just finding a patsy to sack on here for our own agrandizement.

Personally I dont think its that stupid a question. Think about it. Is Earths orbit related to its mass? I dont know I am not an astronomer, physicist or geologist. So as a layman Insurance investigator (cause thats what I am) I sit here and watch tons of earths materials going into our orbit, physically lightening our mass by well......TONS. How much did earth weigh at the start of our civilization? I dont know cause I am not an astronomer, physicist or geologist. So you wonder, could we be screwing up the earths orbit. We talk of mining the moon, I have also wondered if we would screw up its orbit by lightening its mass by exporting TONS of material froma finaite body to our planet (replenishing our mass BTW). What happens to earth when the moon crumbles to dust or flies out of orbit? I dont know cause I am not an astronomer, physicist or geologist.

Now I know that matter can not be destroyed. SO on earth, we mine steel and build a building. Transfer of mass, earth weighs the same. Now we mine steal build a rocket and launch a satellite. Several tons of earths mass are now OFF the planet and free floating in space. Loss of mass!!!!

IS THAT A BAD THING?

Theres my question.

Does that really deserve the humorous and condisending replies it received.

Nothing personal and I aint personally offended. I just dont know why this was such a stupid question. I come here cause we have geologist and other professional pple here. I think, maybe someone here can answer this for me. Was I wrong?

Just wondering.

[MonteQuest]

Now I know that matter can not be destroyed. SO on earth, we mine steel and build a building. Transfer of mass, earth weighs the same. Now we mine steal build a rocket and launch a satellite. Several tons of earths mass are now OFF the planet and free floating in space. Loss of mass!!!!

Slowing down the earth's revolution period has been happening ever since the Earth formed. The sun's steady loss of mass through nuclear fusion and the solar wind has increased the size of Earth's orbit.

It would take a incident of massive proportions to significantly alter the motion of the Earth. Even the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs hardly affected Earth itself, and it added mass.

[rogerhb]

It would take a incident of massive proportions to significantly alter the motion of the Earth. Even the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs hardly affected Earth itself, and it added mass.

The last big event for the Earth was really when the moon was either captured or knocked out of the Earth.

[emailking]

One thing I have wondered about. for a long time now since we started throwing satellites out into space. PO has added to my wondering. Anyone with basic or even advanced astronomical eperience have any idea about this?

Earth has a natural mass. Does the mass have anything to with how and where we orbit the sun, our rotation (day/night cycles). Now I am wondering if mass loss from the earth will have any effect on the earths orbit. Consider we throw millions of tons of marterial into space, making the earth lighter. We extract million, maybe billions of tons of oil and NG out of the ground and do nothing to replace this mass and its gone when we burn it.

Kinda like we are lighter now and get pulled towards the sun, or lose our orbital inertia and end up flying out of the solar system totally.

If you took all the material we have burnt to nothing. Ejected into space (off the earth physically and thus a mass loss) in satellites etc... would that have any impact on the earths ability to maintain its rotational orbit around the sun un-impacted?

Can we screw up earths orbit causing it to fly out of its orbit or stop rotating within its orbit, by lossing mass of the earth? I am just wondering if maybe we are killing our planet in an unobvious way. I can see how we are killing our planet ecologically speaking. But what about astronomically speaking. Anyone have any insight to this or does earth mass not play into the orbital equations.

We have "ejected" very very little matter from the earth.

You have to remember everything that orbits the earth is still essentially part of the earth as far as the sun is concerned. We have sent some spacecraft out of the earth's orbit. That's it. Satellites, space stations, space shuttles, etc. all orbit the earth and are thus still part of the system.

Burning fossil fuels does not change the mass of the earth. It goes into the atmosphere as carbon dioxide and some other gases, and possibly some solid residue. Doesn't matter (no pun intended). The mass is almost exactly the same as before. Just because it's in the atmosphere doesn't mean the mass of system has changed. Sure, the mass of the solid earth is less, but that's irrelevant as far as the orbit is concerned.

It is true that gases escape from the atmosphere, but there is a natural balance here in which we do not play a very large role.

In other words, no need to worry. We're not screwing up the earth's orbit one iota.

[emailking]

Personally I dont think its that stupid a question.

It's not a stupid question. I don't know why everyone came down on you so harshly. Your line of reasoning makes perfect sense...just not once you've had a few physics classes. Rwwf is the only one who actually gave you an answer. We've got some real meanies on this site, that's for sure.

Perhaps if they had taught all different levels of knowledge in physics and math like I have, they would be more understanding. Most people don't have very good physical intuition. Just a fact. Inquisitive curiosity should be rewarded with answers, possibly directed questions. Not shot down. That gets us nowhere.