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THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 3

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Sat 10 Sep 2011, 12:36:57

Pops wrote:The tacit agreement is KSA will sell us oil and invest the proceeds in the US so dipping into savings isn't good for us either.

KSA has a huge baby bubble and unemployment to contend with - lots of folks have never had a job as I understand it, they hire foreigners to do their menial work and the natives live on stipends from da King.

I don't know how much the monarchy has changed since 9/11 but they were big time supporters of fundamentalist schools even though they aren't shining examples of fundamental islam themselves. Perhaps they have changed that now that by now and certainly will be changing it more after the Arab Spring.

We're all in this together, surprisingly.


Speaking as someone who has worked in KSA on and off for a total of 10 plus years, Pops assessment is pretty much spot on. My only small quibble would be with the first paragraph, I don't believe there is any type of agreement to invest in the US.

The unemployed Saudi's are the KSA's biggest problem. Since the Arab Spring started, the royal family has been trying to buy off the population with massive welfare spending. Also, within the last month, they have started to implement yet another Saudiazation plan to replace expats and TCN's with Saudi's. It has never worked in the past, but who knows maybe this time it will work.

I don't see Sharia law going away anytime soon.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Pops » Sat 10 Sep 2011, 17:10:02

careinke wrote:I don't believe there is any type of agreement to invest in the US.

I don't think so either, that's the 'tacit' part :wink:

Here's an article that says they hold $500B in bonds alone, the majority of their foreign assets.

Their largest banks is saying that they should sell them too by the way...
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sun 18 Sep 2011, 23:59:01

LINKY
Saudi oil output at 30-year high
Daily supply from 12 Opec members rose to 30.26m barrels a day

Bloomberg
September 14, 2011

Riyadh: Saudi Arabia pumped the most oil in 30 years last month as it boosted production along with other members of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries' (Opec) including Nigeria, Angola, Iraq, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, the International Energy Agency said.

Daily supply from Opec's 12 members rose to 30.26 million barrels a day in August from 30.09 million in July, the Paris-based IEA said Tuesday in its monthly oil market report.

Saudi Arabia, the world's largest crude exporter, produced 9.8 million barrels a day last month, compared with a revised 9.7 million for July, the IEA said — the highest in three decades.

"Exports appear largely unchanged from July levels, with the increased volumes dedicated to meet higher demand for direct crude burn," the IEA said.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Pops » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 08:44:48

OilFinder2 wrote:LINKY
Saudi oil output at 30-year high
Daily supply from 12 Opec members rose to 30.26m barrels a day

Bloomberg
September 14, 2011

Riyadh: Saudi Arabia pumped the most oil in 30 years last month as it boosted production along with other members of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries' (Opec) including Nigeria, Angola, Iraq, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, the International Energy Agency said.

Daily supply from Opec's 12 members rose to 30.26 million barrels a day in August from 30.09 million in July, the Paris-based IEA said Tuesday in its monthly oil market report.

Saudi Arabia, the world's largest crude exporter, produced 9.8 million barrels a day last month, compared with a revised 9.7 million for July, the IEA said — the highest in three decades.

"Exports appear largely unchanged from July levels, with the increased volumes dedicated to meet higher demand for direct crude burn," the IEA said.

Read the last sentence of your snip for a simple explanation of the Export Land Model.


A thousand words on the ELM (KSA exports - pink line):

Image
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The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 11:00:14

which is precisely why the Saudis have had such a big push for gas exploration including the recent discussion around shale gas potential. With ever increasing demands for local fuel oil they are increasingly limited on what liquids can be exported. Their plan has been to offset a lot of the fuel oil consumption with natural gas, the problem has been that the search for conventional gas has stalled out due to a lack of success in the Rub Al Khali exploration program.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 12:32:59

pstarr wrote:How relevant is that? One month? Still hasn't exceeded its 1980 maximum of 9.9 million and never ramped up to 12 million as promised. Most important is that the Kingdom's exports continue to decline.

Oh golly gee, they're short of their 1980 record by a whopping 100K bpd! Abject failure! :roll: What will be your excuse when they surpass that record?

They never "promised" to produce 12 million bpd, they said they'd have capacity to produce 12 million bpd. But of course you know that but choose to dismiss it because you're far too interested in making them sound like they're falling short even when they really aren't.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 12:38:08

Pops wrote:Read the last sentence of your snip for a simple explanation of the Export Land Model

As you know well, oil is a fungible commodity. If they're increasing production in large part just to feed their internal consumption, all that means is it frees up oil from somewhere else to go wherever it needs/wants to go.

This export land model is just about the worst of the many already lame peak oil theories. A decline in world exports could mean nothing more than large consumers producing more of their own oil and/or consuming less. It's a classic case of looking for doom where none probably exists.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby dorlomin » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 12:50:20

OilFinder2 wrote:As you know well, oil is a fungible commodity. If they're increasing production in large part just to feed their internal consumption, all that means is it frees up oil from somewhere else to go wherever it needs/wants to go.

:?:

Its to feed a growing demand. Not a fixed demand.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 12:57:43

dorlomin wrote: :?:

Its to feed a growing demand. Not a fixed demand.

I didn't say it was fixed. Re-read what I wrote.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 13:04:42

Pops wrote:
OilFinder2 wrote:[...]
"Exports appear largely unchanged from July levels, with the increased volumes dedicated to meet higher demand for direct crude burn," the IEA said.

Read the last sentence of your snip for a simple explanation of the Export Land Model.


A thousand words on the ELM (KSA exports - pink line):

And incidentally, that "unchanged" level of Saudi exports are from a level that was the highest since 2008:

LINK
Saudi oil exports rise in June to highest level since 2008
By Reuters
* Wednesday, 17 August 2011 8:19 PM

Saudi Arabia produced 9.813 million barrels a day (bpd) of crude in June, up about 918,000 bpd from May, while exports rose to their highest level since the financial crisis hit demand in 2008, official Joint Data Initiative (JODI) figures show.

[...]
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http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 13:24:03

Exactly they have peaked, in spite of years and years of denial in the international patch and here.


I don't see your logic in this statement at all. The Saudis completed their mega-projects on schedule with the exception of Manifa which was postponed due to lack of demand for the heavier crudes. That should have brought them close to the spare capacity number of 12 MMB/d.
Your argument would be sound if there had been a call on Saudi Arabia to supply more crude into the market and they were unable to meet that call through bringing on spare capacity. This didn't happen, they supplied crude to offset the Libya shut-in volumes. They have said (backed up by their own numbers in the OPEC monthly's) that they do not see a market that is under-supplied and in fact they have been saying for sometime that the market is oversupplied given the demand they see. Just recently they reiterated this view and are contemplating a quota adjustment.
Again, why would they produce more oil into a market that doesn't need it and risk a price collapse?

The term "peaked" of course refers to maximum production , not what the potential maximum production could be is. Economic factors have significant impact on the level and shape of the peak curve.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 15:27:22

pstarr wrote:The Saudis reworked their remaining ancient inferior fields (Khurais, Shaybah &Nayyim, AFKL, and Haradh) yet production still slipped in the face of record high crude prices..

LOL!!!! Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument!! :lol:

Here's that production "slide" - both in 2008 and more recently. Not. :lol: Notice production is higher now, even though the price of crude is lower than it was in mid-2008.
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http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 15:43:38

The Saudis reworked their remaining ancient inferior fields (Khurais, Shaybah &Nayyim, AFKL, and Haradh) yet production still slipped in the face of record high crude prices.. That is the true measure of the supply/demand equation.

The fields were only “inferior” for the oil and gas technology applied thirty or forty years ago. The progress made with MRC wells, SMART completions, expandable liners etc. put those fields on an equal level playing field with the others.
The Saudis were still in the process of commissioning these fields when oil first ran to $140 but they said during that whole period there was no shortage of oil on the market. Their view was that the price was artificially high as they were not being called on for additional volumes. Their voiced concern all along has been there was and is lots of oil in the market and additional volumes they might add would serve to create a dissasterous crash which is not in anyone’s best interest as was witnessed by the crash in '08.
"Capacity" is mostly meaningless, a function of past performance and future dreams. Past performance on a yearly basis (since 2005 and the beginning of the peak plateau) has been less than 9 mbpd. "Capacity" is all about good intentions and does not take into account price, porosity, permeability, geographic accessibility, refinery loses, rotten eroei.

It is pretty clear that regardless of all your bluster you actually understand very little about the oil industry. Spare capacity refers to what volumes can be brought on-stream in very short order and almost zero cost. For that definition to hold the wells must have already been drilled and the water and gas handling capacity in place as well as the appropriate amount of space available in existing processing plants and pipelines. As an example volumes from Khurais could not have been classified as spare capacity if the Saudis had not drilled the scores of necessary MRC wells and built additional water and gas handling capacity. Capacity absolutely does take into account porosity, permeability, geographic accessibility, refinery loses etc. It was deemed economic or they wouldn’t have already spent the hundreds of millions of dollars necessary for wells and facilities.
As long as you don't subscribe peak oil, you will continue to willfully confuse the supply/demand and price correlation and makes claims for "capacity" that just make no sense. Demand is down because supply at the price the world can afford is not available.That is peak oil. The world has begun to grasp the "oil expense indicator". You should consider it also

Well I was on the record back in 2005 here speaking to my understanding of peak oil and giving background models with supporting graphs for when I thought we would reach peak globally and the uncertainties involved, so I’m hardly someone who doesn’t subscribe to the theory. Indeed, as I’ve pointed out here a few times I was exposed to it more than forty years ago at University by two professors, one who was at the AAPG conference when King Hubbert first broached the subject to a large and disbelieving audience and the other who worked with Hubbert for many years at the Shell Research Centre. Peak oil by definition is the point at which production reaches its maximum point and is not defined as you imply. Demand is down for a number of reasons that aren’t necessarily dependant on current oil price. Demand on oil was higher a few years back when oil was at $130 than it is currently at $86. If the economy is booming then there will be demand for oil. The economy is tied to oil very strongly but not exclusively.

Exactly. And so the remaining expensive "capacity" will mostly never be produced.


Again you are showing your lack of understanding as to what spare capacity is. The capital associated with accessing it has already been spent…it just has to be turned on which would mean there is a slight increase in overall variable operating costs which are insignificant.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 16:12:57

pstarr wrote:dude. SA is still below their 1980 9.9 mbpd peak.

As I said, by a whopping, staggering 100K bpd. WOW! :roll:

And I repeat: What will be your excuse when they exceed that peak? It's gonna be lots of fun watching you contort your arguments when that happens. :lol:
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 17:20:04

You have apparently not read your westexas over at the Oildrum. He shows that the Kingdom ignored market signals when it failed to raise oil exports in response to record high oil prices
Saudi Arabia failed to meet it's production commitments

This analysis is rudimentary and ignores all of the political machinations that were ongoing at that time within OPEC and without. It assumes that Saudi Arabia had said they would defend a $28 oil price forever, which they did not. As well the whole reason the Saudis announced the mega-projects was because they got caught without spare capacity as prices made their quick rise. These projects were of the scope and scale that they were expected to take several years to complete. Their original planned schedule was met almost exactly on time but that meant that the spare capacity did not come available until sometime after the initial rapid rise in prices. They continued with the commissioning of the projects even as oil price dropped simply because they did not want to be caught without spare capacity when it was needed.
The Saudis main worry has been two-fold, market share and demand destruction. Their worry all along was that higher prices would result in loss of market share as happened to them post the seventies crisis and hence they tried to manage price down to that level that kept the non-OPEC oil from increasing its market share beyond a comfortable level. As oil projects became more expensive the marginal cost of new barrels added increased, to the point at which the Saudis have been saying for the past two years that a fair price is somewhere between $80 and $90 as that price supports new projects (eg: oil sands) as well as provides enough stable cashflow for the Kingdom to continue to support its growing economy.
And yes, you have no clue as to what spare capacity means.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 17:35:11

Predictably, you didn't even attempt to answer my question: What will be your excuse when they exceed their previous record?
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Pops » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 18:30:59

OilFinder2 wrote:And incidentally, that "unchanged" level of Saudi exports are from a level that was the highest since 2008:

I stand corrected, they had a big spike in 'production' last month,

but... they've also had a corresponding decrease in their domestic use (refinery input) the last three months - so was it an increase or just a re-lease. It's a zero sum game, you can't use more and export more as well. I don't expect them to ever export more than the 10Mbd limit the king talked about last year when he said flat out new production will go to internal demand only.

Hey maybe they still have a sea of it and they'll cut loose and we'll have $10 oil ... but I doubt it.

And on my original point OF, they aren't freeing up production 'somewhere else' because increased demand is new demand, never met anywhere else so it can't be 'freed-up'. The more consumption increases in exporting countries the less oil is left for export, what's so hard to understand?

I think 25 of 30 OPEC countries are exporting less than they were in 2005...


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Crap, the JODI charts disappear... you can find the info at http://www.jodidata.org.

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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 19 Sep 2011, 21:52:05

Pops wrote:The more consumption increases in exporting countries the less oil is left for export, what's so hard to understand?

Unless, of course, production in exporting countries is increasing at a greater rate than their increases in internal consumption. Export-Nation X might be increasing consumption at a rate of 1% per year, but if they're producing 2% more per year, they still have 1% more to export each year.

Whether or not that's true, that wasn't what I said. I said if consuming (importing) nations happen to be producing more of their own oil, and/or consuming less, then a decrease in overall world exports is a non-issue. As I pointed out earlier this year here, non-OPEC has indeed been producing more of their own oil, which would help explain why world exports aren't growing: Importing nations, on average, are becoming more self-sufficient.
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http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 20 Sep 2011, 11:01:37

They promised those megaprojects long before the prices rose, back in 2005. At the time SA knew Ghawar was in decline. We knew here at PO.com the projects would come on line in 2010. Yes, the Saudi's made good, but Ghawar and the other giants continued to decline. And now no more pronouncements from the Kings. They are laying low for good reason. They can not expand production, their population is absorbing more and more exports. And the young poor non-royal saudies are about to lose their cool--Saudi Spring and all that. I'd shut my mouth also.


Ghawar was not in decline according to 3 or 4 papers that were published in the SPE back a number of years ago. We talked about all this a long time ago in the Saudi Arabia Reserves thread, a huge thread that spoke about reserves, production, errors made in the Twighlight in the Desert analysis etc. and which some moderator decided to destroy a couple of years ago. The projects, as I said were started at the point that the Saudis predicted they were going to run out of spare capacity and based on their initial experimentation with MRC wells the economics supported the massive investment. They got caught in the midst of their campaign by the quick run up in oil price. Remember that in mid ’05 oil prices were in the $40/bbl range but that was a substantial buildup from the previous $20 range that the industry had indured for a number of years. Within a year prices had doubled once again to around $80 before they took a brief respite and rose to over a $100 in 2008. During that whole time period the Saudis were in the process of completing the mega-projects so they didn’t have additional spare capacity to bring on stream. It wasn’t until the bigger projects reached completion in late 2009 and throughout 2010 that the spare capacity became available. By that time the world was struggling it’s way out of a massive recession so there was hardly any need for that oil.
Yes. And so why is oil at $120? And how and when will the "new projects" bring it back down to $80. And what about falling/failing SA exports in the face of extraordinary demand?

Well firstly oil isn’t at $120, WTI is at $86 and Brent is at $112. The higher Brent price is at least partly a result of the risk premium that has been imposed by on-going Middle East/North Africa tensions. The lower WTI is somewhat controlled by the fact eastern US terminals are full of North American crude. Brent ships mainly into markets that are also served by MENA crude and it has similar characteristics. When the turmoil in Egypt started the spread between Brent and WTI increased and continued to increase as we saw the domino effect with Tunisia, Libya and Syria. As the Libya debacle appears to be coming to an end the spread between WTI and Brent has been decreasing.
Whether or not the Saudis have the intentions of bringing the price down to $80 has more to do with their belief that the fair price of $80 - $90 is really what their analysis of demand and supply currently should have the price at. Their belief is the higher prices are due to “fear premiums” and not a lack of supply and if that is true by opening up the taps they run the risk of driving prices down to levels that are unhealthy for the oil industry as a whole and especially SA.
I am not sure what you mean by “extraordinary demand”. The Opec analysis that comes out each month is not showing extraordinary demand and rather shows the market as being balanced. Remember that the Saudi crude is a slightly different quality than Libyan crude. So when the Saudis said they could make up for Libyan crude shut-ins it really meant that they would have to produce more of their crude and swap it or blend it so as to sell to the European refineries. My understanding is that the Euro refineries which took Libyan crude could not deal with virtually any sulphur which made the task of making the Saudi crude attractive to them as problematic. Note that the Saudis did increase production for sometime earlier in the year as a consequence of the Libyan issue. My guess is production response after that has to do with how well they have been able to sell their crude. The economies in all of the countries which are their major markets has been slowing so you would expect exports to slow as well.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby seahorse3 » Tue 20 Sep 2011, 12:46:39

I disagree that the demand is not there. Demand is being killed by higher oil prices hurting the economy. So, it oil were back at 1999 levels of less than $10 a barrel and gas was under $1 gallon US, then the demand and economy would significantly improve. In my opinion, they don't, bc the price of oil has risen dramatically since the glory days of the late 90s economic boom. The price of oil has risen because world demand rose and bc the cost to develop the oil has risen, in part bc the easier to reach cheap oil is gone and the oil we get is more costly to extract. I think the evidence is the world economy can't grow (world GDP) can't grow with $100 plus oil. It maintains, but certainly doesn't grow. I'm not really sure we are maintaining, bc in most measurably sectors, there is still ongoing contraction limited in part, or ameliorated in part, by gov'ts throwing money out there to create inflation in a deflating economy environment. I believe that the "Arab Spring" was a direct result of this plateau oil. Why? One of the motivators was high food prices. They import their food and the cost of food is rising in direct response to higher cost to grow food. Many years ago, the Saudis said they would defend $30 barrel oil and they said this for good reason. High oil doesn't benefit anyone. The problem is, $30 oil is gone (absent a depression). If the world economy is to grow, oil will be much more than $30 barrel.

I wish the old Saudi thread had not been deleted. A lot of time and effort went into that and some other threads, which was all lost along with all the thoughts that went into it.
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