[Sixstrings]

Tell you what Radon. If Russia loses Ukraine, don't feel bad, you won Egypt and maybe the whole middle east:

Russia offers Egypt no-strings-attached arms deal

Russia's proposed arms deal with Egypt and its endorsement of Egypt's military ruler's run for president are a signal to Arab rulers that, unlike the United States, Russia will back anti-terrorist strongmen who trample human rights, analysts say.

"Our assistance comes with lectures on human rights and civil-military relations," says Jeffrey White, an analyst at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. "With Russian assistance, you don't get those lectures."

Egypt's army chief, Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, was in Moscow to negotiate a $2 billion arms deal Thursday. During the visit, Russian President Vladimir Putin expressed his support for al-Sisi's political ambitions.

"I know that you, Mr. defense minister, have decided to run for president of Egypt," Putin said, according to the BBC. "I wish you luck both from myself personally and from the Russian people."

"We're seeing Putin trying to step up Russia's game in foreign affairs, almost reviving a Cold War-type rivalry between Russia and the United States," always trying to step in where the United States seems wavering or ineffective," Dunne said.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/13/russia-egypt-arms-deal/5459563/

Now see, THAT just gets me going again. If Putin is playing a cold war game on us, then maybe we should be pushing hard on Ukraine?

[radon1]

Now see, THAT just gets me going again. If Putin is playing a cold war game on us, then maybe we should be pushing hard on Ukraine?

Better not, Six. You know, Miami is full of Russian pop-singers, the country's latest secret weapon. If you go nasty, they will get their orders from Kremlin and will go out and sing on the streets. Their singing is so horrible that your agony will be slow and tortuous. They have just had tested this secret weapon over the New Year's TV concert in Russia - the country barely survived. Better not mess up with their evil master.

[Sixstrings]

Better not, Six. You know, Miami is full of Russian pop-singers, the country's latest secret weapon. If you go nasty, they will get their orders from Kremlin and will go out and sing on the streets. Their singing is so horrible that your agony will be slow and tortuous. They have just had tested this secret weapon over the New Year's TV concert in Russia - the country barely survived. Better not mess up with their evil master.

Funny post, in other words:



I gather you'd rather not talk about the Russian "no strings attached" arms deal for Egypt. That's fine, I'd rather not talk about it either because this is just getting kind of serious and depressing.

It's a Big Deal if Russia steps into America's shoes in the middle east. This was the prize the Soviets always wanted, and we kept them out all through the cold war and beyond. Every USSR war plan called for invading the middle east first and securing the oil. The oil was crucial.

So what does that mean now, if the middle east winds up in Russia's SOI, because Russia will just sell the weapons and prop up dictators and never give anyone any pesky human rights / democracy lectures?

Does it even make sense for Russia? You will get blowback, you know. Making these "no strings attached" arms deals will wind up arming the same muslim sects that cause you problems in Chechnya.

You really sure this is a good idea? What if Egyptians start hating Russia down the line, just as Iranians hated us so bitterly for "no strings attached" propping up the Shah.

I guess in geopolitical chess, checkmating Uncle Sam trumps all other concerns. But think about it, does that really make any sense? Is NATO on your border any kind of rational threat, compared to what else Russia may get mixed up with in the middle east?

I'm not sure what the US gameplan is about the middle east, exactly why we're pulling back. If it's because we don't need the oil so much anymore due to domestic production then I guess that makes sense. I could say, then, okay let Russia have it and all the problems. We need a rest.

We can hang out with Ukrainians instead, waving their EU flags. Maybe this will be the next cold war -- an alliance of democracies versus an axis of totalitarianism. Russia, China, and all the world's dictators on the other side.

The map will change -- middle east may go with Russia, and we may get Ukraine.

However, the West's biggest trump card remains -- our culture. Just like that pop music you mention. That's Western. Our culture is a powerful force, cheesy as it may be at times but folks seem to like it, and it has actually moved the muslim world forward quite a bit. There are people in Russia and Egypt and Ukraine who don't want just some money in their pockets -- they want our cultural values too, and freedom, and human rights and civil liberties. They also want freedom from what they see as too much religious control and oppression. Pussy Riot wasn't just protesting oppression from the State -- they were protesting the church too.

Getting to a bottom line on all this Russia stuff..

Persoanlly, just as a redblooded sixpack American voter, at a gut level, I only care about Russia if it just looks like Putin is wiping the geopolitcal map up and our leaders are clueless. I'm sorry, I grew up in the Cold War, and never lost that existential angst about it. Maybe some British felt this way as their Empire pulled back into the sunset. I'm just used to presidents like Reagan, where you really feel "well okay he is on top of all this."

I wonder what a Reagan and Putin matchup would have been like? Reagan had Gorbachev to deal with, Gorby was actually a good and decent man. At Rekyavik, Gorbachev was prepared to get rid of nukes forever.

Getting to the bottom line..

If Russia goes too far poking at us Radon, then as much as I like you and Dissident and as much as Americans want to like Russians, and vice versa, fact is that if it goes too far then we're going to be in another cold war paradigm. At that point it's just a full-out competition. It won't matter anymore who is right or what's best for Ukrainians or Egyptians, both our sides will just compete and push at each other's borders because we have to.

The situation isn't quite there, yet. Russia's GDP is the same as Brazil (not an insult, Brazil is a rising future power, I'm saying you guys can't afford a cold war by yourselves). Russia would have to ally with China for another cold war.

Bottom line -- if Putin goes too far one day, then I will be quiet and you won't see me going on about it because then it's too late.

I'll just shut up and vote for stronger leadership when I cast my ballot. I'm sure Russians feel the same way too. So the best thing for both sides is if our leaders could get over it already and both compromise. If giving up a missile shield in Poland and sharing Ukraine would stop Putin from building an axis of rogues alliance in the world, if Russia could really join the West if we pull NATO back, then that would be fine by me.

Here's the honest to goodness truth: NATO can't exist without an antagonistic Russia. The best way to defeat NATO would be to make it irrelevant.

[radon1]

If NATO goes belly up, Russia won't be much of a problem. But Germany will have a free ride.

In order to have a cold war, two antagonistic subjects are needed. And they are not there in the united capitalist world. Have been over this already.

[Sixstrings]

If NATO goes belly up, Russia won't be much of a problem. But Germany will have a free ride.

My point is that NATO could have willingly gone "bellyup" -- europeans could find other things to spend money on. Many years ago there was talk about that, does NATO have any purpose anymore, there aren't any Soviets to be scared of anymore. Putin restored NATO's purpose.

And, maybe Putin needs a NATO boogeyman too -- to hold Russia together.

Germans are fully converted, we'd never have to worry about extremism there. Germany is pretty much in charge of the EU -- that's what Russia could have done, win from the inside. Peacefully. With human rights. And have bankster wars instead.

In order to have a cold war, two antagonistic subjects are needed. And they are not there in the united capitalist world. Have been over this already.

I get what you're saying, but lately this US-Russia action is a lot hotter than what I remember about the latter USSR. For one thing, is it true that Russia sold a "club k" missile system to Iran giving them EMP attack capability on the US? If this is not cold war, then what is.

Communism isn't the only opposing ideology -- also fascism and religious extremism. Like Argentina invading the Falkands, and war with the UK. Both sides were capitalist. And the middle east -- it's all about religion, at the core.

[radon1]

For one thing, is it true that Russia sold a "club k" missile system to Iran giving them EMP attack capability on the US?

The world is a single system of the division of labor nowadays, even weapons are made from the same spare parts everywhere. Are you going to have a war between your hand and your ankle. Pacifying a local warlord (Putin) and his gang is not the same as a cold war.

[Sixstrings]

Russian satellite uncontrolled re-entry doom:

Russian reconnaissance satellite to hit Earth Sunday

Portions of Russia’s defunct Kosmos-1220 satellite will come crashing back to the planet on Sunday following a fiery, uncontrolled descent through the Earth’s atmosphere, Russian officials said.

Fragments of the former reconnaissance satellite are expected to survive the high-speed re-entry and will most likely plunge harmlessly into the Pacific Ocean, Colonel Alexei Zolotukhin told Russian news agency Ria Novosti.

“As of February 7, 2014 the fragments are expected to fall on February 16. The exact impact time and location of the fragments from the Kosmos-1220 satellite may change due to external factors,” Zolotukhin said.

That uncertainty means the satellite could potentially fall anywhere on Earth. Similar uncontrolled descents – such as the November 2013 re-entry of the European Space Agency’s GOES satellite – have crashed harmlessly into the ocean. But in 1978, a different decommissioned Kosmos satellite crashed into an unoccupied part of Canada, spreading radioactive debris and leading to a lengthy clean-up. And in 2009, a third Kosmos satellite crashed at over 26,000 miles per hour with a U.S. Iridium telecommunications satellite, sending thousands of bits of space junk into orbit.

The exact size and weight of the Kosmos-1220 satellite is unknown, Ria Novosti reported, adding to the uncertainty of the upcoming event.

“Much of it will burn up in Earth’s atmosphere, but no doubt fragments of Kosmos-1220 will reach Earth,” David Eicher, editor of Astronomy magazine, told FoxNews.com in an e-mail.

“What we have going for us is that most of the planet is covered with water, and highly populated areas are in the minority of our planet’s surface area. So it is unlikely that satellite debris will cause injuries or major damage. Still, with such a reentry, we are playing the odds.”

Alex Donohue, spokesman for British gambling giant Ladbrokes, told FoxNews.com his agency wasn’t taking bets on the descent of this satellite, as it had when the GOES satellite came crashing down last November.

But he offered some odds anyway:
Pacific Ocean: 2/1
North & South American: 3/1
Russia: 4/1
Asia: 5/1
Australiasia: 5/1
Atlantic: 8/1
Europe: 10/1
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/02/15/russian-reconnaissance-satellite-to-hit-earth-sunday/

[Quinny]

Six why don't you just get it over with and declare yourself a Republican?

[Ibon]

We need boogymen to crystalize our own identities. Just wait, The Overshoot Predator will make the Russians look like Boris and Natasha of Bullwinkle.

[Sixstrings]

Some more perspective on Russia in the Washington Post. They feel ideologically and culturally "under attack" by the West.

A member of the Duma has entered legislation that would regulate what people can and can't say about Russian history.

A TV network got dropped from cable providers after someone mentioned whether Leningrad would have been better off surrendering than endure the siege. Now, this independent network, one of the few not state owned, may be put out of business.

Now here's what I can't figure out.. some in the Russian parliament are accusing the WEST of going nazi. The thing that's troubling about Russia is they are doing so much of what a nazi party would do -- control over the media, progressively harsh laws persecuting a minority that everyone gets to hate, passing laws to regulate thought and ideas (the list goes on and on). The West is doing none of these things, which are abhorrent to free speech and freedom of thought.

Could you imagine it? Say an ultra hard right Republican president and Congress passing laws making it a crime to deviate from their version of American history? Yikes. That's not too far of a stretch from criminalizing people saying anything or thinking anything not approved by the State. If political speech is regulated, and then discussion of history and cultural speech too, where does that all lead to?

The closest thing we've had to that in the US are with some Southern legislatures choosing school textbooks that reflect their version of history. Government gets to choose the textbooks, so not much you can do about that unless parents complain -- but the proposed Russian law would criminalize ANYBODY printing things that don't comply with State dogma. And I'm not even saying the Russian state version of history isn't the right one, the concern is the free speech assault.

You can't pass laws telling people what they can say and think. Freedom means a free marketplace of ideas and everyone is free to speak and think, and you can trust the people to sort it out and that it will all be okay. Freedom works out, you don't have to be scared of it.

In Russia, World War II is suddenly everywhere again

Russian sacrifices in the fight against the Nazis 70 years ago were stupendous, and feelings still run deep. Every family paid a price, and the war haunts everyday life here in a way that short-memory Americans would find startling. But there’s another side to its legacy: For decades after the war, Soviet leaders sought to reinforce their legitimacy by exploiting the memory of the titanic struggle.

And today the Russian government appears to be turning in the same direction.

President Vladimir Putin’s Kremlin has portrayed Russia as being under ideological attack. The West, it says, wants to impose a different and alien value system on the Russian people. Critics say Putin has been warning against demons abroad as a way of shoring up his own standing during uncertain times.

And there could be no more potent denunciation of the West’s alleged motives than to compare them to those of Nazi Germany.

Alexei Pushkov, the head of parliament’s international affairs committee, has proposed a bill criminalizing what he characterized as misinterpretations of Russian history. He said such a move is necessary because “Europe” is pushing an agenda to rehabilitate Nazism and that neighboring Latvia was already moving in that direction.

Dozhd TV, an independent television channel that has garnered the Kremlin’s ire for its coverage of political protests in Russia, lost virtually all access to cable providers after it came under fire in January for asking a provocative question — too provocative, as it turned out. Would Leningrad have been better off surrendering, the channel asked, rather than enduring a 900-day siege during the war? The official outrage that followed was intense.

The future of Dozhd is now in doubt.

And a blog post this week comparing a young Russian Olympic champion to a German medal winner in the 1936 Berlin Olympics who was later connected to war crimes in Ukraine and killed by partisans in Belarus in 1943 sparked another furor.

The author of that post was a loose-cannon satirist named Viktor Shenderovich. He said his point was that Putin, who was photographed congratulating figure skater Julia Lipnitskaia, was likely to exploit her victory just as Adolf Hitler had capitalized on the achievement of the handsome blond shot putter Hans Woelke.

Shenderovich said he was warning against fascism in Russia, but political leaders here said he was besmirching Russia’s victory in the war.

A deputy speaker of parliament demanded that the station apologize, but Venediktov said the station had a policy of not interfering with bloggers, had not put the offending post on the air and would not apologize.

Pushkov’s proposal to legislate history could have the most significant effect of any of the controversies. He was angered, he said, by a similar history-writing bill in the Latvian parliament that would make it a crime to deny either Nazi or Soviet occupation of that country.

The Soviets — and after them the Russians — always portrayed themselves as liberators of Latvia and the two other Baltic nations. That is not how Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians see it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/olympics/in-russia-world-war-ii-is-suddenly-everywhere-again/2014/02/15/1d400a60-9559-11e3-afce-3e7c922ef31e_story.html

[radon1]

You can't pass laws telling people what they can say and think. Freedom means a free marketplace of ideas and everyone is free to speak and think, and you can trust the people to sort it out and that it will all be okay. Freedom works out, you don't have to be scared of it.

Wholeheartedly with you here. The bureaucracy are busy erecting defenses against the people, sensing discontent in the air.

[Sixstrings]

You can't pass laws telling people what they can say and think. Freedom means a free marketplace of ideas and everyone is free to speak and think, and you can trust the people to sort it out and that it will all be okay. Freedom works out, you don't have to be scared of it.

Wholeheartedly with you here. The bureaucracy are busy erecting defenses against the people, sensing discontent in the air.

I appreciate you saying that, as much as I've pushed buttons and been a jerk and gone all Dr. Strangelove. I just get carried away. And I just see these things going on in Russia and just want to hear someone else saying they're wrong, too.

If they ever become normal and everyone thinks it's normal then that's when the whole world has gone nuts.

It's like the NSA thing over here and gov going after whistleblowers, even hints of going after the journalists who published the leaks. I really don't like to post about it, I don't want to end up on some Big Brother list, it's easier and more comfortable to rant about Russia.

If free speech ever gets seriously curtailed in my country, then it's just too late and as an average person you keep your mouth shut and mind your own business and forget about it, and give up speaking your mind on internet forums or ever going to a tea party meeting or an eco group or anything that is out of the mainstream.

That's why these issues matter. Because just like that, it can happen, freedom is gone. The US gov actually has the technology in place to do it, too. Then you've got Google and all that, who already know us and what we say and what we think. It's Big Brother, man.

And all that keeps government from flipping the switch and making full use of this technology, are these soft and cuddly liberal civil liberties principles we have.

Merkel was right when she told Obama, "this is like the Stazi." Not literally, of course, it ain't that bad, but it's close enough to be concerned. And Russia ain't that bad either, but enough to be concerned.

The biggest thing about civil liberties is that you don't vote for taking them away from people you don't like -- because that will come back on you, eventually. You tolerate the speech you don't like so that your rights are protected too.

Lastly, I've figured out that a lot of what Russia is going through is just culture wars like we had in the '90s. We have a right wing too. Our right tries to control people, too. Our right has a religious base, too, and if they'd ever been allowed by the vast moderate middle, our Right would have imposed conservative Christian values with the force of law and Pat Robertson would have been president.

And then, a conservative can complain about liberal nanny state control too, and our conservatives complain about liberal decadent values just as Russian conservatives do (that's mostly over with, that was our 90s culture wars). At the end of the day we just all have to agree on basic principles, and see that in the end free speech protects everyone, liberal or conservative, Christian jew or muslim, straight or gay.

Government should stay out of culture. Culture is organic, and it evolves, and you're going to get the most innovation and progress in your economy if you allow people to be free.

That's why the US can still compete with China. They graduate many more engineers, they have more high IQ individuals than we do, yet we out-create and out-innovate them. Because we have the most freedom, political AND cultural. Free people thinking freely leads to innovation, and thinking outside the box. It's backward to want to shut that down.

Anyhow I'm glad we agree on one thing, free speech, and really that's the one right that protects all others.

Russia has culture wars going on. Same as we did at various stages. Fighting it and cracking down just makes it worse. Look at everything we've gone through -- free love and hippies in the 60s, did it ruin society? No. Jesus, conservatives thought rock n roll and Elvis was the End of the World. They wanted laws against rock music.

I think you probably get the point here and agree, that it's going nowhere to pass laws trying to stop people from saying things or thinking things, or reading something or listening to it. <-- that should be the marketplace deciding that, if people don't like it then they won't buy it.

P.S. If Russia ever does get to a point of instability, then the West needs to back off and not make things worse. It was WWI armistice terms that made Nazi Germany possible.

[Sixstrings]

Six why don't you just get it over with and declare yourself a Republican?

I'm not rich enough to be a Republican.

If D's screw up foreign policy though, and we're looking like idiots in the world bungling and waffling and not knowing wtf we are doing, then I'd vote R again.

I don't want another cold war, all I ask is that our executive be interested in foreign affairs, and appear to know what he is doing when he deals with Russia, China, Iran, and the middle east. That's all I ask. O has done well on anti-terrorism but not on deep, long range geopolitical issues.

I think Hillary will be fine though, if she's not too old. Her and Bill have a lot of experience. She's tough, but she's a woman, and can match up to Putin without going too far. She doesn't like to look a fool. I'll make my mind up after that campaign which is still years off, but I think I'd be confident about her and Bill in charge.

[Plantagenet]

If D's screw up foreign policy though, and we're looking like idiots in the world bungling and waffling and not knowing wtf we are doing, then I'd vote R again.

How many more screw-ups are you waiting for?

[Sixstrings]

How many more screw-ups are you waiting for?

I'd sure rather have a John McCain sitting across the table from Putin.

But neocons went too far, with Iraq and Afghanistan. Looking out for our long term national security does not have to mean trillion dollar wars. There's a lot of middle ground there. And most of all, as a voter, I just want to know someone in government is on top of it so I don't have to worry about it.

I have no idea why we are pulling out of the middle east. And I read a lot of damn news, and I still don't know. I haven't heard any kind of explanation or read any analysis that sounds like we have a plan here. Other than the shift toward getting this deal with Iran, which doesn't sound like any deal at all and Obama has not made the case for it.

If they're going to end up with the bomb anyway, then why make this deal at all and lose allies over it and even worse, our allies in the region go nuclear too?

Foreign policy isn't my #1 voting issue but it existentially matters, a voter just wants to know that somebody's on top of it and knows what they're doing.

Putin sure looks like he knows what he's doing. Repub or Dem I don't care, but next go around we need to elect somebody as smart and strategic-thinking as Putin is. Minus the fascistish stuff, free speech and human rights crackdown.

I'm with the D's on most other issues, and honestly modern Democrats are really repubs anyway, but D's need to get it together and Hillary needs to inspire some confidence in me for me to vote for her. And Repubs would be wise not to run another clown show in their next primary. Bring back "compassionate conservative," combined with "daddy party" foreign policy competence. And stop turning so many voters off by getting crazy in the primary.

[Plantagenet]

neocons went too far, with Iraq and Afghanistan.

These days Obama and the Ds are the big supporters of the war in Afghanistan. Obama even calls it the "good war" to contrast it with Iraq the "bad war".

The war in Afghanistan is now the longest war in US history---we've been fighting there even longer than the Soviets did.

If must seem bizarre to to Putin to see the US losing a war in Afghanistan just like the Soviets did 30 years ago. It just proves the old saying---those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

[Sixstrings]

These days Obama and the Ds are the big supporters of the war in Afghanistan. Obama even calls it the "good war" to contrast it with Iraq the "bad war".

We need to be smarter in our use of force.

Look at what Putin did in Georgia -- he rolled in, had a very brief "war," got the message across, then got out.

US power lost a lot of credibility what that Syria debacle. Sending the navy out there and then waffling, not knowing wtf to do, and all the drama in Congress about it. The president made a red line, it was crossed, and the navy should have fired those missiles at Syrian military targets.

And THEN sit down at a table with Syria and Putin and make an arrangement.

If must seem bizarre to to Putin to see the US losing a war in Afghanistan just like the Soviets did 30 years ago. It just proves the old saying---those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

Afghanistan is yesterday's news; none of our middle east policy makes any sense anymore with us out of Egypt and estranged from the Saudi government.

Supposedly China is the real future concern. We need to keep our Japanese and South Korean allies -- they're solid, we can't leave them on their own or fall under a Chinese sphere of influence (and they don't want to be, plenty of generational animosity there).

Putin is nipping at our heals at every turn, wherever we wobble and waffle and back out of, Putin comes in. Like Egypt and the "no strings attached" arms deal, and Putin backing Egypt's military ruler as the next president of Egypt.

The reason all of this matters, is that we can't become isolated and give up all our old cold war allies, and pissing off the EU as well with the spying. Half our dollars are held overseas. All our American corps are global corporations. Economies and central banks all tied together -- though China is moving toward decoupling.

So we don't really have a choice, we must have an administration that knows wtf it is doing overseas. Either that or we can follow the Europeans, but traditionally this NATO alliance has always needed American leadership.

If we do draw down and pull back in the world, then we've got to manage it right so it doesn't tank our economy. With a declining US, the rest of the world will need a new reserve currency / basket of currencies. So one way or the other, either the US leading in the world again or managing our pullback, we're going to need smart leadership.

If anyone has read all of this , what do you think of it? Russia isn't too much of a concern other than problems Putin could cause us, but what about China? If China starts something up and Japanese get freaked out about it, should we be involved and be there to back up our Pacific allies?

Is it worth it, to keep these old allies? Or can we just cast them off, like the Saudis, and have them make new ties with Moscow and Beijing.

And, do we still have a moral highground in the world, with our long tradition of promoting democracy abroad? And defending democratic allies? You can say what you want about the US, but current the reality is this: we actually don't sell weapons to just anybody, we do give those pesky democracy and human rights lectures, we do try to make the world a better place -- which in theory, makes us safer at home, if the world isn't full of dictators and tyrants.

Does anyone care anymore? Is it okay if communist China holds more sway over the world? Or Russia? And there's no more Uncle Sam to give any pesky lectures anymore, on human rights and democracy.

That's the current reality. I don't want to start in on Russia again, but the fact is that we wouldn't sell Egypt weapons and allow them to do just whatever they want, whereas Russia offers a "no strings attached" deal. And China doesn't care about human rights either.

[ralfy]

There is no democracy vs. communism. The U.S., like other military powers, operates through realpolitik, which involves challenging some dictators while supporting others.

Also, there's no "we" in this issue. Financiers and governments partners call the shots.

[sparky]

.
On the subject of the new "cool war" by the U.S. against Russia
( A scarecrow is Sooooo useful to keep the increasingly impoverished sheeple enraged in the wrong direction )

there was this phone intercept between Nuland and the U.S Ambassador in Ukraine
also called the "F..Ck the EU " scandal

all Washington went up in arms squealing about the evil Russian
then the truth cane out , unreported of course
the stupid woman was using an unsecured line !!!!
don't take my word for it , take Ron Paul's
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... tions.aspx

some choice snippets

"Nuland and Pyatt obviously knew that at the time, being the two parties to the call. They then either sat by and allowed US government official one after the other accuse Russia of going to great lengths to hack the call without admitting this fact, or they did inform their superiors but Administration officials decided to ignore this critical fact and push accusations against Russia anyway. You never want a serious crisis to go to waste, as it is said."

"indeed, the fallout from "Ukraine-gate" is astounding but sadly not surprising. The mainstream media in the US has focused solely on the Russian angle (now discredited) and on the salty language and particularly the false supposition that Nuland was using sailor's language to indicate a serious rift with the EU on Ukraine policy. In fact, US and EU policy toward Ukraine is identical: regime change."

"Is the US training and funding the Ukraine opposition? Nuland herself claimed in December that the US had spent $5 billion since the 1990s on "democratization" programs in Ukraine. On what would she like us to believe the money had been spent?"

It seems probable that the intercept was done by the Ukrainian security service ,
the SBU has been monitoring the comms of the protesters
they would as a matter of course keep an ear toward any Western "tourist "

They are not much in love with the Russian FSB , Ukraine is their backyard ,
neither are they sold to any particular side
leaking the conversation on you-tube , then giving thew Russians the link
must have got them pissing in their pants with laughter .

[sparky]

.
On the war in Georgia ,
the separatist area were under internationally mandated peacekeeping
the brain dead Sakashvili decided to invade , shelling the place with grad multiple rocket launchers
Russian peacekeepers were killed , holding on the ruins until the cavalry arrived
the president Medvedev was on summer holiday on a cruise on the Volga
prime minister Putin was in Beijing at the opening of the Olympic game
he gave a piece of his mind to GW Bush , flew straight back to console the civilian refugees
and told general Baranov to send in the 19th Independent Motor-Rifle Brigade , the Spetnatz
and units of the Black sea fleet
it turned out the Georgians were not such hot shot as they though ,
the Russian army tore them to shred , then stopped well short of the capital Tbilisi

So , sixstring , do you dig things a bit sometimes
or if you believe things written in "USA today" stick to the sport section