[Pretorian]

Why risk drinking raw milk? Just take your probiotics to get the necessary bacteria you need w/o the risk.

And take vitamins/fiber waffles instead of eating fruits and vegetables. We get it.

[Pops]

A perfect example of Survival of the Fittest economic politics masquerading as populism.

This is exactly like the "vaccines cause autism" crap, willingly choosing conspiracy over fact and putting your family at needless risk to prove you are "informed" or something.

I'm as small farm as I can be, which is why I hate to see such antics from the very same group that screams bloody murder when their free-range, organically grown baby radicchio shows up with E. coli. Mark my words, some group is gonna get sick - again - and this time the news coverage will be even bigger because of these fools and the regulations will be even harsher.

Look, there is a reason milkers wear rubber boots - Amish milkers wear them too. In practice there is no way to prevent feces from contaminating milk, Bossie sh!its when she is good and ready and if it's when the milker cup is half on, so be it.

That isn't chocolate milk running down the leg on this cow, and that speck on the girls arm? That isn't cookie dough. She is cleaning about 4" of teat at most, and I'm not criticizing this outfit at all, that is a clean barn, lots cleaner than many.




And none of this has anything to do with supporting small dairies, the only way for small dairies to survive is to have a bigger share of the market and the only way for that to happen is to be safe, not promote the image of some wacky fringe.

http://www.ruralmissouri.org/10pages/10 ... amery.html

[PrestonSturges]

Yep, these are not conditions the health department would approve for a salad bar, are they?

And how many people die from salad bar appetizers every year? Probably hundreds. Often several people die and hundreds are sickened from a single slip-up

Not to mention that a lot of these cows are crapping the nasty toxic kind of E. coli that can kill you if it gets into your hamburger. I'm not aware of any cases linked to raw milk, but as you say, the margin of safety is a couple of inches in a dirty barn. Since the milk goes into a common tank, one slip could lead to a serious outbreak.

[Pops]

I'm not aware of any cases linked to raw milk, but as you say, the margin of safety is a couple of inches in a dirty barn.

This is the first link I googled, from a year ago:

There have now been at least seven outbreaks of illness, involving three different dangerous pathogens, tied to raw milk since January 2010. There have been outbreaks in Minnesota, Nevada, Utah (2), New York and Pennsylvania, as well as a single outbreak that included illnesses in Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois. Raw milk consumers have been sickened with E. coli O157:H7; Salmonella, and Campylobacter.

Last night, health department officials in Minnesota have reported three cases of E. coli O157:H7 illness linked to raw milk from a dairy farm in Gibbon. The Minnesota Department of Health and the Minnesota Department of Agriculture are continuing to investigate the illnesses. All of the sick share a strain of the bacteria that have the same “pulsed field gel electrophoresis” (PFGE) patterns, or DNA fingerprint. One of the ill persons has developed Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome (HUS).

Earlier this month, Nevada health officials reported that a child became seriously ill with a Campylobacter infection after eating homemade cheese that was illegally sold door-to-door. The cheese was not properly pasteurized.

In April, Utah was the site of Salmonella and Campylobacter outbreaks tied to raw milk. According to a Utah Public Health Press Release, there were two separate clusters of illness linked to the consumption of raw milk. The first cluster included nine reported cases of Campylobacter infection among residents in Weber, Davis and Cache Counties. This outbreak was linked to the Ropelato Dairy. The second cluster, linked to the Redmond Dairy, included six reported cases of Salmonella infection in residents in Utah, Salt Lake and Wasatch Counties.

In March, raw milk caused at least 17 culture confirmed Campylobacter infections from Family Farms Cooperative in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana. Three cases were from Indiana, one from Illinois, and 13 from Michigan.

Another outbreak of Campylobacter was reported in February in Pennsylvania. State health officials there said approximately 10 people became ill after drinking raw milk from Pasture Maid Creamery. One of the ill developed Guillain - Barre Syndrome, and became paralyzed.

In January, Willow Marsh Farm in New York was implicated in five Campylobacter illnesses.

http://www.marlerblog.com/legal-cases/raw-milk-e-coli-o157h7-outbreak-strikes-minnesota-seventh-outbreak-in-2010/

In the 21st century, dairy products now cause approximately 1% of reported foodborne outbreaks, but about 70% of reported dairy outbreaks are from raw milk or raw milk cheeses. Because of the way statistics are collected, we do not know how many people get sick from raw milk (or other foods) if they are not part of an outbreak.

http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/

[PrestonSturges]

One of the ill persons has developed Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome (HUS).

When we were kids we all pissed blood and we liked it!

[mattduke]

Yes, many diseases are communicable from mother to infant via breast feeding. It's clear raw milk persecutors have trouble distinguishing the two issues here. One issue is whether or not it is a good idea to choose to drink raw milk. Another issue is whether it right for someone to violently threaten, attack, steal from, and cage raw milk drinkers. I would never attack anyone for drinking raw milk, but apparently many here would. I mean really, what kind of mentally ill person would attack another person for drinking raw milk?

[PrestonSturges]

It's clear raw milk persecutors have trouble distinguishing the two issues here. One issue is whether or not it is a good idea to choose to drink raw milk. Another issue is whether it right for someone to violently threaten, attack, steal from, and cage raw milk drinkers. I would never attack anyone for drinking raw milk, but apparently many here would. I mean really, what kind of mentally ill person would attack another person for drinking raw milk?

We could say the same thing about weed.

A child gets antibodies from mom, a child is not likely to get a big dose of new pathogens from mom (just like you probably aren't going to get sick from not washing your hands before preparing your own food), and mom's duggs aren't getting spattered with dirt from a barn floor.

[Pops]

Yes, many diseases are communicable from mother to infant via breast feeding. It's clear raw milk persecutors have trouble distinguishing the two issues here.

What are you talking about? Did I miss something?

One issue is whether or not it is a good idea to choose to drink raw milk.

Exactly, Paul is making a big deal of nothing. He says throw out the laws and let the states decide but they already can! 36 of 50 states allow raw milk sales and the other states don't want to! Surprisingly this is where "regulation of interstate commerce" comes in.

issue is whether it right for someone to violently threaten, attack, steal from, and cage raw milk drinkers. I would never attack anyone for drinking raw milk, but apparently many here would. I mean really, what kind of mentally ill person would attack another person for drinking raw milk?

Dude, what are you going on about? If there is a problem with enforcement then fix enforcement, don't throw out food safety laws.

But lets be honest, that's the point right? Close all the consumer advocacy type departments - It's survival out there so buck up you whinners! Don't want melamine in your baby formula? Tough titty buy a different brand. Don't want feces in your milk? Tough sh!t, we've closed all the inspection offices and fired the inspectors, saved you $2.98 on your taxes (and producers billions), so quit whining!

So what is this really about? oh yea...

A perfect example of Survival of the Fittest economic politics masquerading as populism.

[mattduke]

issue is whether it right for someone to violently threaten, attack, steal from, and cage raw milk drinkers. I would never attack anyone for drinking raw milk, but apparently many here would. I mean really, what kind of mentally ill person would attack another person for drinking raw milk?

Dude, what are you going on about? If there is a problem with enforcement then fix enforcement, don't throw out food safety laws.

What exactly do you think "enforcement" is? Law is enforced with violence. It is literally, "enforcement." If it is wrong to use force to stop a behavior, then the behavior must be legal. If it is right to use force to stop a behavior, that behavior is rightfully outlawed. The corollary is that the situations in which police are rightfully violent are no different from the situation in which any citizen is rightfully violent. That is why "citizens arrest" is a basic concept. This is the fundamental principle of law.

[PrestonSturges]

issue is whether it right for someone to violently threaten, attack, steal from, and cage raw milk drinkers. I would never attack anyone for drinking raw milk, but apparently many here would. I mean really, what kind of mentally ill person would attack another person for drinking raw milk?

Dude, what are you going on about? If there is a problem with enforcement then fix enforcement, don't throw out food safety laws.

What exactly do you think "enforcement" is? Law is enforced with violence. It is literally, "enforcement." If it is wrong to use force to stop a behavior, then the behavior must be legal. If it is right to use force to stop a behavior, that behavior is rightfully outlawed. The corollary is that the situations in which police are rightfully violent are no different from the situation in which any citizen is rightfully violent. That is why "citizens arrest" is a basic concept. This is the fundamental principle of law.

This isn't going to turn into one of those Sovereign Citizen "taxes are the moral equivalent of genocide" things is it?

[Pops]

What exactly do you think "enforcement" is?...

errrm, OK.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make, something about evil jack-booted "Milk Enforcers"? I thought this was about milk, food safety, health facts/myths, consumer rights, promoting small farm competitiveness, you know, stuff about the real world.

You obviously are somewhere else entirely, excuse my interruption.

[mattduke]

This is about police threatening to kill raw milk sellers: the inevitable consequence of raw milk prohibition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifvp3Fxi7Uo

[fiedag]

Certainly you will agree that alcohol should be illegal then. It is completely inconsistent to believe raw milk aficionados should be jailed or otherwise harmed while consumers and producers of alcohol are to be left alone.

It's a different risk-reward equation. Here are the differences: 1) Alcohol is not contagious. 2) The health costs of consuming alcohol are predictable. 3) Consuming small quantities of alcohol is relatively safe*. 4) The presence of alcohol in a food is easily detected by most consumers. 5) Contaminants like methanol or aldehydes are easily tested for, and maximum levels can be controlled.

*I disagree with your assertion that consumers and producers of alcohol are left alone. It is a pretty socially volatile substance, and most legislatures have huge volumes of laws and regulations governing its production and consumption. Drink driving laws, licensed premises, product testing, legal age restrictions etc.etc.

I suggest that raw milk aficionados will just have to remain underground and continue to break the law.

[mattduke]

Freshman Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul stood firm today on his position against raising the debt ceiling. In an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer on "The Situation Room," the libertarian-leaning senator said he would only consider voting "yes" if the bill came with a balanced budget amendment.
"If (Democrats) want to spend the money, they need to be honest with the American people and say 'We've got to borrow $2 trillion because that's what we want to spend,' " Paul said. "I don't want to spend that much money."

But Paul said he's not concerned about the potential consequences of keeping the federal debt ceiling at its current limit.
"Our interest payment is about $20 billion a month," he said. "Our tax revenue is about $200 billion a month, so we're bringing in (nearly) $200 billion. We've got plenty of money to pay our interest."
Paul said the country could also bring down the debt by bringing back its troops overseas. With growing unrest in Syria tempting the international community to intervene, he warned against any further involvements.
"We're already involved in three wars, including the latest war in Libya, where we had no congressional vote," Paul said. "That's not what our founding fathers wanted."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... ling-hike/

[PrestonSturges]

WTF does that even mean? "Balanced Budget Amendment" as in constitutional amendment that takes 20 or 30 years to ratify?

Rand is one of those guys who thinks he's a genius because his daddy is a politician and as a result nobody ever called him a fool to his face.

Not to go off topic, be he has been saying stunningly stupid things (like Michelle Bachmann level stupid) with increasing frequncy.

[sereniaL]

As we all know, the U.S. approaches its $14.294 trillion government debt limit, lawmakers faces a vote on increasing the debt limit. But Congressional Republicans are promising to block the hike unless it comes with spending reductions and long-term debt elimination. If a compromise isn't reached by August, the economic swell will impact every customer. The proof is here: The debt ceiling affects us all, personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog.

[Sixstrings]

WTF does that even mean? "Balanced Budget Amendment" as in constitutional amendment that takes 20 or 30 years to ratify?

That's just shrewd politics.. a way to pay lip service to the Tea Party without actually doing anything. A balanced budget amendment won't get passed anyway, but even if it did there would be loopholes for emergency / war. Well guess what we're in perpetual war now and have been for a decade; that's never going to change, ergo no balanced budgets. Even *if* it passed Congress and then twenty or thirty years from now finally got ratified by enough states, by then the US will have thoroughly crashed anyway and a balanced budget will be the least of our problems.

So that's what it's about, the balanced budget amendment nonsense is just standard squirley politician stuff. I'm not sure what Paul's endgame is here, since he knows even though meaningless the amendment has no chance of passing -- much less ever being ratified, since the states have no interest in the feds spending less (that would put the states on the hook to take up the slack). Maybe that's the plan, perhaps they will pass this thing knowing it will never be ratified. Then everyone's happy, they can claim a victory even though it's in fact meaningless.

Rand is one of those guys who thinks he's a genius because his daddy is a politician[/b] and as a result nobody ever called him a fool to his face.

Yup, Rand is a bit of a lightweight. I would just add that even though his father is well spoken, his actual ideas are unworkable in the modern world. Rand doesn't know what he believes, whereas Ron wants to return us to the 19th Century. Ron Paul is smart and argues the Liberterian case well, but fact remains it's 2011 we can't go back to 1842.

[vision-master]

I heard the USA is spending about 10 billion a Month warring in the Middle East.

Help me with this?

[the48thronin]

amendinga bill is not the same as amending a constitution.... DUH! A balanced budget amendment to a debt limit raise would simply demand that any budget be balanced...DUH for every increase in spending an increase in income or a decrease somewhere else.... How simple to bad you missed it!

[vision-master]

So you support this Facist?