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The Pressurized Air Car?

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: compressed air car

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 28 May 2007, 05:28:29

How would we structure the deregulation incentives? For example how many cars per year before an auto maker is moved to the "regular" category and subjected to regular regulation? What level of fuel efficiency to trade off for what level of deregulation? And how far do we want to go in terms of cutting back on safety standard related regulation?


Simple. So long as a company stays privately held(like AC Propulsion, Commuter Cars, UEV), they shouldn't ever be forced to face any of the regulations of companies that are publically traded(GM, Ford, VW, Chrysler, Toyota, ect.).

However, the current case is very far from this. AC Propulsion, a privately held company, is currently bogged down by the same regulations any major automaker would face, and then some! Our government literally expects a small sub $1 million a year company to be able to pay $40+ million for repeated crash testing and NHTSA/DOT/EPA/ect. approval. Their TZero literally has to be registered as a kit car to even be road legal. Companies like Mosler and Caterham have to sell their cars as kits in order to sell them at all.

This is no accident. In the 1970s, small car makers started propping up like crazy in the US when the Big 3 refused to meet consumer demand for fuel economy and performance in the same package. The solution of the major automakers? Lobby the government and regulate the small companies out of existence. Then there were the marginally improved foreign cars, just one incremental step ahead of the major US automakers. The solution of the Big 3? Reagan-era import restrictions and fees!

Both things in conjunction subsequently doubled the price of automobiles(when you adjust for inflation), virtually eliminated 3rd party competitors, legislated the affordable featherweight sports cars of generations past out of existence(see: http://www.mulhollandraceway.org/MHR/issues.html), and produced an atmosphere devoid of any meaningful competition.


And the ignorant rednecks blame Nader to this day.
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby kolm » Tue 29 May 2007, 09:46:24

The_Toecutter wrote:
I do not see a single relevant spec where the Prius prevails. I do see a (IMHO mostly irrational) plaque stating that the A2 is "subcompact", which in some mysterious way is supposed to mean the Prius can be sold for more money.


The Prius does 0-60 mph in 10 seconds(compared to the 13 seconds of the Audi A2),


Irrelevant. I want from A to B, not burning rubber.

has more passenger space than the A2(beating it out in rear leg room, head room, shoulder room),


I did not feel much difference. The only thing I noticed was the better oversight in the A2.

has more trunk space than the A2(Prius has 16.1 ft^3 versus A2 at 13.8 ft^3),


I found 390l for A2 and 408l for Prius. It was recorded also that A2's trunk is better suited for really bulky stuff.


gets about the same fuel economy as the A2(Prius at 67.3 mpg imperial while gas A2 gets 56 mpg imperial! The 3L diesel does much better at 93 mpg imp but was very limited production),


You mean A2 3L was artificically limited in production? That's the first time I ever heard about this.

and the Prius has a slightly higher price tag(Nevermind the ridiculous dealership markups on the A2, often pushing them past the £16k region).


Last time I checked it was 25k Euro for Prius, 20k Euro for A2 in Germany.
I'd say this is more than a slightly higher price; but maybe this is only Germany.

Then no conspiration of any sort is needed to explain the absence of low-drag cars.


Perhaps not, but what if it is present anyway?


Then I can't tell the difference now..

Living in the heart of Europe, I have a choice from car makers from over twenty countries. Was there governmental over-regulation in all of those countries? (I honestly do not know.)


Maybe, but there is with certainty plenty of regulation in Europe. Try getting a custom EV on the road where you live.


If I could manage to work in Norway, I would be allowed to drive in the bus lane with an EV; the government really tried at some point to give incentives to EV buyers. VW managed to get some EVs on the market; you can sometimes read EV ads with road approval in german auction houses. But it is an uphill battle, this is for certain.

Fit whatever explanation you think will fit, but consider that the technology is there, there is demand, it can be affordable. Using Occam's razor, I came to my conclusion after throwing out all those explanations that are false...


What puzzles me are things like the new Th!nk announcements. 180km range, 100km/h top speed, using "newest Li-Ion batteries" and going for 200k Kroner. This is such a vast difference to the acclaimed performance/price of GM's line that I just scratch my head. Are they really using such inferior technology today an Think! compared to GM 15 years ago?

I just point out that any market analyst would label this results as not too reliable (95% confidence is not helping here


95% confidence interval is usually considered a point of scientific consensus. This is a very basic concept learned in a Probability and Statistics course.


It says that with 95% confidence, >x customers, when being 'pretreated' in a certain way, would tell the guy standing there that they would do this and that. For this, the 95% is all good and well. However, the question is whether the customer's resolve to but an EV will hold out until they actually buy a car, and for this question the 95% give no answer. But maybe this is just me being overpicky as a trained probabilist, and market researchers never give a damn about such subtleties (which would explain some things).

Just to straighten things, I do appreciate your valuable input to this forum; keep going, we will learn from you.
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby xrotaryguy » Wed 30 May 2007, 04:10:40

The_Toecutter wrote:That's precisely why aerodynamics should be significantly improved so we can shove a big fucking V8 into a midsize car and allow people to still get 35+ mpg while allowing 0-60 mph < 5 seconds.


Oh, but we already have them. Grass Roots Motor Sports measured over 30mpg in a late model Corvette. The Corvette has a very slippery shape, and an ultra tall 6th gear. 5th gear is also over driven. GM just can't get enough overdrives in this car. Of course those are highway miles, not combined miles.

Cadillac's North Star V8 powered cars will also get over 30 on the highway. Most Cadillacs will not go from 0-60 in under 5 seconds, but I'll bet the XLR will. Since the XLR is also basically a Corvette, it will probably get 30mpg too.

Back on topic, city buses have been using compressed air for years to recover some of the energy that would otherwise be lost during breaking. There is basically compressor / pneumatic motor that makes this happen along with one or more large air tanks.

Another innovative bus was used, and I think still is, in San Francisco in the mid '70's. This [web=article]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,943707,00.html?iid=chix-sphere[/web] basically how it worked. The San Francisco buses didn't really use this technology to power the buses for significant distances. Rather, the flywheel allowed the buses to travel off of the electric line for short distances. This really helped mas transit planners modify bus routs with out rerouting power lines.

There is actually an air powered car going into production in India in August of 2008. Popular Mechanics did a short piece on it in their June 07 issue. It's called the Air Car. Wow, that's original huh? It has a claimed cruising range of 125 miles and a top speed of 68 mph. That's not notably fast, but the range is... well, almost acceptable. The car is of a super light composite construction. This construction is incapable of passing US safety standards. The carbon fiber tank holds 340 Liters at 4350psi. That probably won't pass US safety standards either. Yikes!

deregulate the small auto makers. YES!!!


I'm sure my wife will never pay good money for or transport our 6yo son in a "deregulated" car. Ralph Nader probably wont either. :P
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby Sideous » Fri 22 Jun 2007, 10:48:43

Erm...this thread was supposed to be about compressed air powered vehicles. It seems to have mutated into a battery electric vehicle thread.

I looked into compressed air vehicles about a year back. Cryogenic heat engines (running on liquid nitrogen) are a similar concept. They suffer from two problems. Like hydrogen, compressed air is really just a way of storing mains electric to power a mobile vehicle. The total mains to wheel efficiency works out at less than 10% for the full energy storage cycle. Also, the energy density is quite low, in the order of a few percent that of petroleum, for an equivelent volume of fuel.

Compressed air vehicles basically suffer from the same problems as hydrogen vehicles. The energy storgae system has low energy density (poor range) and appallingly low thermodynamic efficiency for the full cycle.

All things considered a battery electric vehicle gives you an equal or better range (up to 100 miles) with a much superior full cycle energy efficiency (~70-80%). Electrify the roads (see link) and the range of EVs effectively becomes infinite.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=1513
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby kolm » Sat 30 Jun 2007, 01:38:31

Sideous wrote: Electrify the roads (see link) and the range of EVs effectively becomes infinite.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=1513


To be more accurate, the range would be 'as far as electrified roads are built, plus 40km' or something like that. With some planning, this could cover a lot of area. The problems detailed in this article (third rail: really dangerous to pedestrians, induction: inefficient, unpleasant buzzing) are nontrivial, but one could resort to electrifying just highways, which are dangerous to pedestrians anyway. Two problems I spot are maintenance (no details about projections in the study, we talk about heavy trucks crossing lines, no idea how this works out with the third rail idea) and billing (either meters within the car or large-scale surveillance would be necessary).
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby TheDude » Sat 30 Jun 2007, 10:51:42

Sideous wrote:Electrify the roads (see link) and the range of EVs effectively becomes infinite.


Maybe if we build a Beringia Bridge while throwing up the hundreds of nuke plants needed to power just the US vehicle fleet.

Search the forums for debate on EVs.
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 30 Jun 2007, 19:51:19

TheDude wrote:Maybe if we build a Beringia Bridge while throwing up the hundreds of nuke plants needed to power just the US vehicle fleet.

A suitable (highway cruisers would still be based on ICE engines) electrified US vehicle fleet could likely be powered by all the capacity that sits idle off peak. Granted, if we wanted high voltage charging stations and the same refueling schedule we use with our current fleet, sure, we don't have the extra peak capacity. But why would you even bother going to a charging station when you could pull into your garage and plug-in at night? Not to mention that we're still spread out to the point where I doubt we would have 40% of the fleet electric within a decade.

Otoh, if a sizable portion of the fleet is electrified, they aren't using any gasoline/oil. If you do some googling about oil/gasoline inelasticity, you may see why this is a losing proposition for those who control oil/gasoline. My cousin works on some rigs near Bakersfield iirc, and they're still getting paid ~$5/bbl for it out of the ground. As you might image they're mad as hell. Guess who's raking in that extra $65 less refinery/distribution expenses? ;)
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby Bioman » Sat 30 Jun 2007, 21:29:00

The Belgian licence-holder of the MDI technology has announced today that a factory will be build to have cars on the market as early as next year.

The smallest car will go for €4000. That's dirt cheap.

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail. ... d=CV1E7TLN

7500 cars will be produced in the first year. The production concept is based on decentralised, small factories, in each country, to supply the local market ; this saves on energy, no transcontinental logistical chains.

--------

The only problem I see is that this could be majorly polluting and climate destructive if the energy needed to compress the air is obtained from coal, gas or oil.

Luckily, Belgium gets most of its electricity from nuclear. Renewables are seeing fat money too.
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby TheDude » Sat 30 Jun 2007, 23:36:38

D+ for energy infrastructure. Another multi trillion dollar project we'll have to tackle. The fuels powering them are going to be in short supply soon too, looks like.

We've gone over this ground lots of times: Nation's grid could power almost 185 million electric cars. What do you have in mind by "highway cruisers"? Shipping? Will we keep our old ICEs for vacations?
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby yesplease » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 00:05:31

TheDude wrote:D+ for energy infrastructure. Another multi trillion dollar project we'll have to tackle. The fuels powering them are going to be in short supply soon too, looks like.

A 404 error is what you linked about our grid? :p
But, anyhoo. Apparently the grid wasn't designed for deregulated activity. And, surprise surprise, after deregulation we get rolling blackouts in CA, caused by our poor ailing infrastructure, i.e. Enron Dudes calling up various power generation co's and telling 'em to idle down, so they can rip off the state of California to the tune of millions. Course, maybe we should continue with deregulation so that companies can find other inventive ways to rip us off, and we can invest more money into improving an infrastructure that worked well before the "free market" stepped in to solve all our problems. :lol:

Not to mention the fact that all these EVs *will not be charging during peak, so any problems we currently have with grid infrastructure won't be, since the load on the grid will still be much less than it is at 4pm when everyone gets home and turns on the AC. It's not like we'll instantaneously replace every ICE powered vehicle on the road with an EV.

TheDude wrote: What do you have in mind by "highway cruisers"? Shipping? Will we keep our old ICEs for vacations?
Not exactly for vacations. Just that we use what's best for the job at hand. This means EVs in the city, hybrids in the suburbs, and ICEs in the country.

*O.k. maybe they will. We can all agree to use all of our electricity during only one hour of the day, so that demand will skyrocket, and those selling/controlling it will make astronomical profits. :roll:
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 04 Jul 2007, 05:53:30

Oh, but we already have them. Grass Roots Motor Sports measured over 30mpg in a late model Corvette. The Corvette has a very slippery shape, and an ultra tall 6th gear. 5th gear is also over driven. GM just can't get enough overdrives in this car. Of course those are highway miles, not combined miles.

Cadillac's North Star V8 powered cars will also get over 30 on the highway. Most Cadillacs will not go from 0-60 in under 5 seconds, but I'll bet the XLR will. Since the XLR is also basically a Corvette, it will probably get 30mpg too.


Highway mileage would approach or exceed 40 mpg for the cars I propose. That 35+ mpg would be combined, not highway!

The Corvette has a .27 Cd, and is thus pretty good on gas compared to many American-made family sedans. Imagine if the Cd were .18 Cd.

To be more accurate, the range would be 'as far as electrified roads are built, plus 40km' or something like that.


A car designed from the ground up as an EV can easily do 120-160 km range at 100-110 km/h with lead acid batteries. This is mass market viable, albeit in a few tens of thousand units.

No electrified roads needed when Aerovirnment quick chargers can top up a lead acid battery pack in under 15 minutes, nevermind 150A+ setups designed by Rich Rudman of Manzanita Micro or the dump charge packs drag racers use to rapidly charge lead acid EVs.

A compressed air car won't come close.

Two problems I spot are maintenance (no details about projections in the study, we talk about heavy trucks crossing lines, no idea how this works out with the third rail idea) and billing (either meters within the car or large-scale surveillance would be necessary).


This is why the charge station model is such a good idea. While it's being implemented, you can still use your garage for the time being. With 300 miles range from Li Ion and 150 miles range from NiMH, trips where you actually need a refueling point will only be once or twice a year for the vast majority of the population, if ever at all.

No new meters or surveillance needed now. Nevermind the reduced cost to implement and reduced overhead.

Otoh, if a sizable portion of the fleet is electrified, they aren't using any gasoline/oil. If you do some googling about oil/gasoline inelasticity, you may see why this is a losing proposition for those who control oil/gasoline. My cousin works on some rigs near Bakersfield iirc, and they're still getting paid ~$5/bbl for it out of the ground. As you might image they're mad as hell. Guess who's raking in that extra $65 less refinery/distribution expenses?


It takes more electricity to refine the oil a gas car uses than it would take to power an equivalent electric car the same distance.

Oil = more energy purchased and wasted = more profit
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby kevincarter » Thu 05 Jul 2007, 06:34:17

Well it seems the compressed air car is already for sale and running, with an autonomy of 200 km, can be recharged at an air station (3 minutes) or electrically (4 hours), they claim it costs less than 1 euro for 100 km, not bad! And since the air that it leaves its very cold you get free air con. link
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 00:28:33

Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
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Peak Oil Has Been Solved!

Unread postby Nicholai » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 14:28:46

{thread merged by emersonbiggins}

HAH! I caught you. This won't solve the problem, but it is a VERY interesting article.

If they had started producing these cheap air cars 20 years ago, peak oil would be pushed long into the future. Oh well.



MUMBAI, 5th of February 2007

Tata Motors, in keeping with its role as the leading company in India for automotive R&D, has signed an agreement, in yet another exciting engineering and development effort, with MDI of France for application in India of MDI’s path-breaking technology for engines powered by air.

The MDI Group is headed by Mr. Guy Negre, who founded the company in the 1990s in pursuit of his dream to pioneer an engine using just compressed air as fuel – which may be the ultimate environment-friendly engine yet. Besides, the engine is efficient, cost-effective, scalable, and capable of other applications like power generation.

The agreement between Tata Motors and MDI envisages Tata’s supporting further development and refinement of the technology, and its application and licensing for India.

Commenting on the agreement, Mr. Guy Negre has said, “MDI has for many years been engaged in developing environment-friendly engines. MDI is happy to conclude this agreement with Tata Motors and work together with this important and experienced industrial group to develop a new and cost-saving technology for various applications for the Indian market that meets with severe regulations for environmental protection. We are continuing the development with our own business concept of licensing car manufacturers in other parts of the world where the production is located close to the markets. We have also developed this new technology for other applications where cost competitiveness combined with respect for environmental questions has our priority.”
The Air Car
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Re: Why is the Air Car not a viable replacement for fossil f

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 14:39:48

I wonder how Mexico's 40,000 air-powered taxis, ordered in 1999, are working out.

Oh wait, they were never produced - much like anything out of MDI, save for "updated" press releases and tentative production dates.
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Re: Why is the Air Car not a viable replacement for fossil f

Unread postby Frank » Sun 10 Feb 2008, 14:33:18

Nor will they ever be! It's a concept with no future as the history of this thread demonstrates.
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Unread postby threadbear » Sun 10 Feb 2008, 15:43:37

dontworryaboutpeakoil wrote:Think of the enormous costs involved in setting up a RUF system. You have to build these highways that can power a RUF car.

It just seems simpler and practical to install an electric powered air pump at your local gas station to refuel these air cars instead of spending enormous amounts of resources on these RUF grids.

Do you believe the Air Car is the answer?

Am I crazy here? Am I missing something?

If we can replace the fossil fuel Automobile with an Air car, aren't our problems solved? Electricity can be produced using Non-Oil methods. Nuclear, solar, geothermal, wind, coal, etc. As long as the electricity grid still exists, and as long as we have transporation (Air Car), won't our future continue as it always has??


There is absolutely no reason the air car couldn't solve nearly all transport problems. The issue isn't one of practical expediency, but obstructive politics, and a reserve currency backed by oil. The entire planet is interdependant financially and major powers are holding trillions in American dollars. When the American dollar begins to crater, due purely to poor management, fraud and corruption, you will see the political will to implement alternative solutions....and it's not going to be as difficult as many think.

Observe--Tata will put them into mass production, on an international scale....but they will be unavailable in the U.S.? How so? Oil problems are POLITICAL, more than depletion based.


INS net:
Though Negre first unveiled the technology in the early 1990s, interest has only recently grown. In addition to the Tata deal, which could put thousands of the cars on the road in India by the end of the decade, Negre has signed deals to bring the design to twelve other countries, including South Africa, Israel, and Germany. But experts say the car may never make it to US streets.

http://www.insnet.org/ins_headlines.rxml?id=5991&photo=
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Re: Why is the Air Car not a viable replacement for fossil f

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 10 Feb 2008, 18:29:29

Interview on the Oil Drum about the Air Car:

http://anz.theoildrum.com/node/3526
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Unread postby threadbear » Sun 10 Feb 2008, 18:32:07

Aaron wrote:Still kickin around air cars I see...

This should be an easy one to debunk.

Re-read BackStops comments...


Did you read the Oil Drum interview of Jan.19?
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Unread postby Starvid » Sun 10 Feb 2008, 20:53:58

frankthetank wrote:Maybe horses will be the way to go...i like cowboy hats..:)
Nothing stops you from wearing cowboy hats and boots when you are crusing down the highway in your Tesla Roadster. 8)
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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