Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby careinke » Tue 06 Jun 2023, 18:03:16

AdamB wrote:
careinke wrote:"Full faith in the U.S. Government." That phrase lost its credibility a long time ago. Never coming back.
Peace


Really? I take one of those green pieces of paper down to the corner store and they give me a coffee. I offer them a bitcoin and get a blank expression.

So if in one case I convert worthless paper but full faith and credit into a purchased item, and the other I can't.....tell me again which one isn't credible?


That is just because you don't know how to do it. Sort of like when you got your first bank account. Never use ignorance as an excuse, to learn something new.

I can certainly do it, you should study up a little more.

Peace
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
User avatar
careinke
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4696
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 06 Jun 2023, 20:41:03

careinke wrote:
So if in one case I convert worthless paper but full faith and credit into a purchased item, and the other I can't.....tell me again which one isn't credible?

That is just because you don't know how to do it.


Oh please, I might be elding Hitman but I am not stupid. When someone doesn't take a thing in exchange for whatever it is you want from them, it isn't about knowing how to do it. It is about it not working. There is a difference. My corner store doesn't know any more about financial securities of unknown value any more than I do...except to them they have no value...same as me. Wouldn't be able to take any from me if I had it to give them.
careinke wrote: Sort of like when you got your first bank account. Never use ignorance as an excuse, to learn something new.

It isn't needing to learn something new. The corner store wants $0.99 for a cup of coffee...they don't price their coffee in financial securities of instantly changing value anymore than I would for one of my motorcycles.
careinke wrote:
I can certainly do it, you should study up a little more.
Peace

I didn't say I couldn't do it...I said the users don't know how much it might be worth tomorrow and while coffee costs stay stable there is no requirement bitcoin ever do the same. Why should the corner store be screwed on their proft that week because they use financial securities rather than something far more stable? It just has no use to either of us, and it has nothing to do with studying up on it....more like....we just don't need it.

Enjoy your trading or investing or whatever, but show up with cash should you ever buy someting off me from Craigslist.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 9292
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby careinke » Tue 06 Jun 2023, 21:37:07

AdamB wrote:
careinke wrote:
So if in one case I convert worthless paper but full faith and credit into a purchased item, and the other I can't.....tell me again which one isn't credible?

That is just because you don't know how to do it.


Oh please, I might be elding Hitman but I am not stupid. When someone doesn't take a thing in exchange for whatever it is you want from them, it isn't about knowing how to do it. It is about it not working. There is a difference. My corner store doesn't know any more about financial securities of unknown value any more than I do...except to them they have no value...same as me. Wouldn't be able to take any from me if I had it to give them.


First, I would never assume you are stupid. The word I would use is Ignorant, or even Willfully Ignorant, but never stupid. I think you are very smart.

If you did the research you would know you can use the lightning Network, (or a host of others), which allows you to pay anyone, in any currency they want. Does your shop keeper take credit? Then they can take cash instead avoiding their 3% service fee, plus the sale is final near instantly. So I think it eliminates credit card fraud.

You can You Tube videos that show it works in Walmart among others.

But hey, no coercion, do what you want. I'll do he same. Lets revisit this over the next couple of years. :)

BTW did you notice BTC recovered from the latest dump with a rather bullish daily engulfing candle?

Peace
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
User avatar
careinke
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4696
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 06 Jun 2023, 23:07:48

careinke wrote:First, I would never assume you are stupid. The word I would use is Ignorant, or even Willfully Ignorant, but never stupid. I think you are very smart.

I understand the difference. But I've already explained my issues aren't related to ignorance, but more practical applications.
careinke wrote:If you did the research you would know you can use the lightning Network, (or a host of others), which allows you to pay anyone, in any currency they want. Does your shop keeper take credit? Then they can take cash instead avoiding their 3% service fee, plus the sale is final near instantly. So I think it eliminates credit card fraud.

If memory serves, you have provided some quite informative videos/articles on these particular types of financial securities. Let us test your rather expansive claim.

I recently sold one of my motorcycles. Upon giving it a run around the block, a middle aged man handed me an envelope with the appropriate amount of cash in it. Let us take your example...and he had said instead..."I would like to pay you in Bitcoin". Me, only knowing what it is but having never done anything with it, would say, "Really? And how would you do that?"

This middle aged man would then do what...exactly..in order to give me my $2000 in bitcoin? FIrst, I will assume that it can't be as fast as the 5 seconds to be handed an envelope full of cash, but am willing to grant that, in my inexperience with this form of financial security, it will take longer.

Can you give me an example as to how, if you were this gentlemen, you would walk me through the process of being paid with this financial security, while we are standing there in my garage? Assume decent cell phone coverage, and us both having one on our persons.

I will put on hold the idea that by the next day the $2000 worth of bitcoin this guy gives me could be worth +/- 10% of the original USD$ real live value for now.

I wish to be less....uninformed. :)
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 9292
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 07 Jun 2023, 22:17:27

careinke wrote:
BTW did you notice BTC recovered from the latest dump with a rather bullish daily engulfing candle?

Peace


Very impressive. It's rallied all the way back up to where it was a year ago. To get back to where it was two years ago though it will have to double again and then some. It's a shame they can't do a stock split on it like Tesla, Amazon and all the others did. Bitcoin would look a lot more attractive to punters if it didn't have that huge disparity in price between then and now.
après moi le déluge
theluckycountry
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2346
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 10 Jul 2023, 08:43:43

well it isn't speculation anymore.

Russia confirms BRICS will create a gold-backed currency

Friday July 07, 2023
Friday, according to state-run RT, the Russian government has confirmed that Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, also known as BRICS nations, will introduce a new trading currency backed by gold. The official announcement is expected to be made during the BRICS summit in August in South Africa.

There You Go - It's Official

‘BRICS planning to introduce new trading currency backed by gold at August summit'

‘Gold standard will be a great benefit to strengthening single currency'

‘41 countries have applied for BRICS-membership'

https://www.kitco.com/news/2023-07-07/R ... rency.html

How it will be fixed, I can only guess? To oil perhaps, or to a basket of the BRICS currency? Either way it will be too good an offer for the average nation to pass on. No more IMF loans fixed to the $US, no more currency manipulations. Bring it on I say.
après moi le déluge
theluckycountry
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2346
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 10 Jul 2023, 12:25:03

theluckycountry wrote:well it isn't speculation anymore.

Russia confirms BRICS will create a gold-backed currency


Thank goodness it comes from a credible source.
The Russian "Firehose of Falsehood" Propaganda Model
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 9292
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 10 Jul 2023, 17:31:08

Image


Gold and the Myth of Dividends

Visit the finance section of any popular forum and you will invariably find a thread discussing credit cards, the available rates, the ones with the best interest free periods. The use of debt to buy household appliances and dinners out has become so ubiquitous that the average person probably has no idea that in today's world a credit card has actually become redundant.

Before the inception of the Debit card there was often no other option for the average person making purchases online or renting a car etc. Merchants insisted on a CC since it allowed them access to additional funds that might be incurred and it was a form of insurance for them, not just of money but also of the buyer's credentials. It is no oversight that Banks waited a few decades before introducing the debit card either, they make little profit off them and by the time they were introduced the vast majority of card users were so addicted to debt it was almost impossible for most to make the transition.

Billions of dollars are owed in Australia for CC debts (50 Billion in 2014 when I originally typed this), and often the people who owe these debts have little or no savings. The figure is actually lower today and that perplexed me until searches showed that many younger people have switched to buy now, pay later schemes, and many home owners rolled their CC debts onto their home mortgages. So the debt is certainly greater today. These people, these consumers, are trapped now, in the endless treadmill of paying hundreds of dollars a month in interest. Why are seemingly intelligent people trapped thus? Why can they not see the extent of their predicament, pay off their personal debts and return to the prudent habit of saving money, in an debit card account say, and using their own money to make their purchases? Instead they visit sites like creditcardfinder to seek a lower repayment or rate, an interest free deal, any relief from their dilemma.

The reason is obvious, but the obvious truth will not be palatable for those caught in the web of endless debt. They have, essentially, been 'trained' to accept Credit (which is really debt) as the best solution to maintaining a lifestyle beyond what they can actually afford. They are consumer slaves, unable to give up the cable TV and the dinner out. Sadly in many cases people are now using credit to buy their weekly groceries, in essence eating future income, or if you like, paying today for food they ate a year ago.

These personal debts debts are ever increasing as well, which implies that not only are people unable to stop this ruinous practice, but they are exacerbating the problem. Is this system of personal finance sustainable? Absolutely not! And at some point many will find themselves at the brink of bankruptcy or some other personal crisis and be forced to take a huge hit in living standards. The current and projected future state of our economy virtually guarantees this unfortunately.

What has this to do with Gold? That is not easy to see, and to see it you must first accept the fact that the corrupt economic and financial system that has enslaved generations to debt has used many underhanded methods to do so. A primary method employed is framing everything of value in terms of interest rates. Interest rates on a mortgage, on a car loan, on an investment. people today think in terms of interest rates yet over a century ago, back before banking became the octopus encompassing all, they though very differently.

Back in the 18th century America and many other nations as well I am sure, actually saw no inflation. That's right, prices actually fell for all goods and services because of innovation, competition, and expanding markets. That was an era of honest money, Gold and Silver. Back then no one hardly thought in terms of interest rates, instead they looked at price security, if you saved $x you knew what it would buy in the future. Land might go up in value, especially if improved, but food and horses and all the rest remained fairly constant.

In the era of inflation after central banks took their strangle hold on the world's economies everything changed. After the great depression there was general deflation, for a decade and more! This was caused by a scarcity of money, money controlled by reserve banks. Then came waves of inflation and people began to realize that if they put off buying a home it would be more expensive in the future, so they accepted high mortgages. Likewise they flooded into stock markets to get an inflation beating interest rate return on their savings. Everything became linked to interest rates, which were of course controlled by the central banks, who also controlled the issuance of the money. If they created more money, prices went up! If they pushed up interest rates then prices of major items like homes went down.

Everyone accepts this now as the natural order of business, and then they look at Gold, and what do they see? No interest rate. Gold doesn't provide a dividend, so they dismiss it as irrelevant, an anachronism of a past age. The media and the banks, especially the central banks, fuel this belief by making statements about it. "It's a fear hedge" "It's a dinosaur" "If you invest in Gold you are a doomer" But what the average person doesn't see, because generally they let other people do the research and do their thinking for them, is that the price appreciation of Gold over time is actually better than most other asset classes out their. Over time Gold's track record is better than houses, better than the general stock market, certainly better than the compound interest savings accounts in banks. You can see this for yourself simply by looking up a price chart of Gold over the decades.

The fact that it goes down a little from time to time and over short time-frames, 5 years or so, goes stagnant, is irrelevant, that can happen to home prices too and certainly happens to the stock market. But Gold isn't a portfolio of stocks reliant on cheap energy to make companies profitable. It isn't a house that is fairly illiquid and can see it's value diminished because of sea level rise or a freeway bypass or any number of other events. No, Gold is like a bank account, but one in which the bank can't default or limit your withdrawals in the event of a financial disaster.

But the simple truth is that the only reason the average person can buy Gold today is because no one hardly wants it. If all the working age people in America say, all 200 million, decided to buy an ounce of real gold, that would be 400 Billion dollars worth at today's prices. But there is only around $13T worth of gold on the planet, and nearly half of that is held in jewelry, as well as vast amounts in central bank vaults, so it couldn't happen. Add to this the fact the for every ounce of real gold on the planet there is roughly 200 times as many paper ounces traded we see that there is a big demand out there but it is being satisfied with a paper promises, all of which are subject to default if you read the fine print.

In truth Gold really wasn't necessary over the past 80 odd years because we had cheap oil "Black Gold" that lifted the living standards of westerners and ensured the prosperity of companies, it allowed the paper promises to be honored. You could invest in Coke or General Motors and retire confident that your life savings would be there to draw on. But that was then and this is now and we see that the wheels are falling off that oil-age economic model. There is a new model in place though, not dependent on cheap oil. The WEF have been promoting it for a couple of years and Billions of people across the world have already begun adopting it.

"You will have nothing and be happy"

And that's exactly what most will have when the mountain of paper promises the oil age has built collapses back in line with the remaining resources on Planet Earth.


https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/devas ... 46372.html
https://suttergoldmining.com/how-much-i ... rld-worth/
https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2017/0 ... ket-001038
https://www.channelnews.com.au/gen-z-sw ... -stuffing/
après moi le déluge
theluckycountry
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2346
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby noobtube » Tue 11 Jul 2023, 13:39:27

theluckycountry wrote:Image


Gold and the Myth of Dividends


Back in the 18th century America and many other nations as well I am sure, actually saw no inflation. That's right, prices actually fell for all goods and services because of innovation, competition, and expanding markets. That was an era of honest money, Gold and Silver. Back then no one hardly thought in terms of interest rates, instead they looked at price security, if you saved $x you knew what it would buy in the future. Land might go up in value, especially if improved, but food and horses and all the rest remained fairly constant.

In the era of inflation after central banks took their strangle hold on the world's economies everything changed. After the great depression there was general deflation, for a decade and more! This was caused by a scarcity of money, money controlled by reserve banks. Then came waves of inflation and people began to realize that if they put off buying a home it would be more expensive in the future, so they accepted high mortgages. Likewise they flooded into stock markets to get an inflation beating interest rate return on their savings. Everything became linked to interest rates, which were of course controlled by the central banks, who also controlled the issuance of the money. If they created more money, prices went up! If they pushed up interest rates then prices of major items like homes went down.


Excellent article! [smilie=eusa_clap.gif] Especially liked this part about how things normally worked and then got disrupted.

I think once you get past a certain age, it becomes impossible to gain this understanding
noobtube
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri 04 Jan 2013, 12:48:54

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 11 Jul 2023, 13:55:29

noobtube wrote:I think once you get past a certain age, it becomes impossible to gain this understanding

I think once you get past a certain age you've seen about every trick in the book and aren't a sucker anymore.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 9292
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 11 Jul 2023, 19:31:22

I think if you divide the total amount of gold and silver worldwide by the world population, then you'll end up with only a few ounces per capita.
User avatar
ralfy
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat 28 Mar 2009, 11:36:38
Location: The Wasteland

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby careinke » Wed 12 Jul 2023, 06:13:49

ralfy wrote:I think if you divide the total amount of gold and silver worldwide by the world population, then you'll end up with only a few ounces per capita.


Actually it works out to about 0.833 ounces per person, about $1600 per person. Of course the population is still increasing as well as the amount of gold mined (talk about an Eco disaster), so those numbers are constantly changing. When the price of gold goes up, the mining increases too.

BTC available now is around 14 million, which works out to 0.00174046 BTC per person, or $53.43 per person at todays price(30,700). If BTC reaches the same market cap as gold, which is likely to eventually happen, one BTC would be valued at $928,497.79. :) I'm not holding my breath for that one. :lol:

Peace
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
User avatar
careinke
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4696
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby mousepad » Wed 12 Jul 2023, 06:36:49

theluckycountry wrote:In truth Gold really wasn't necessary over the past 80 odd years because we had cheap oil "Black Gold" that lifted the living standards of westerners


Gold was never necessary. You could have picked sand, uranium, bananas or paper. Same thing.
Oil provides ENERGY. Energy is the crucial thing needed to do WORK. Without oil, the output of a human is about 80W. Combine the human with an oil powered tractor and the output is 400kW. A 5000 fold increase in power output. Or in other words, one single person can do as much work with a tractor as 5000 workers can do without.

THAT makes the standard of living go up. Nothing to do with gold.
mousepad
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu 26 Sep 2019, 09:07:56

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby noobtube » Wed 12 Jul 2023, 11:15:28

AdamB wrote:
noobtube wrote:I think once you get past a certain age, it becomes impossible to gain this understanding

I think once you get past a certain age you've seen about every trick in the book and aren't a sucker anymore.


Yeah. Everyone knows old people are known for their open minds, willingness to change, and admit when they're wrong. Yep, that perfectly describes old people.

mousepad wrote:Gold was never necessary. You could have picked sand, uranium, bananas or paper. Same thing.
Oil provides ENERGY. Energy is the crucial thing needed to do WORK. Without oil, the output of a human is about 80W. Combine the human with an oil powered tractor and the output is 400kW. A 5000 fold increase in power output. Or in other words, one single person can do as much work with a tractor as 5000 workers can do without.

THAT makes the standard of living go up. Nothing to do with gold.


Let's think about that. Using money (gold and silver), you got cars, airplanes, jets, skyscrapers, cement/concrete, indoor plumbing, electricity, railroads, refrigeration, radio, TV, movies, jets, industrial machinery, explosives, and on and on.

Without money, you get digital computers, cell phones, laser medical procedures, and I'm not quite sure what else.

Sure, none of it would be possible without oil. But, why is it that China has very little oil, yet is the world's workshop and not Saudi Arabia or Venezuela? Many claim China has the most gold in the world and is the biggest manufacturer, without much oil.

Saudi Arabia values gold AND has oil, but not the workers to compete with China.
Venezuela has the oil but no gold, and they do not have the workers to compete with China.

The United States has the oil AND the workers. But, it uses debt (dollar), instead of gold. That makes its workers so wildly unproductive and inefficient, they cannot compete with China.

Oil IS the master resource. But, if you don't have an efficient way to allocate it (namely gold and silver), you end up like the United States (stagnant standard of living for decades).

It is not just oil. You need a stable form of payment (money, or gold and silver). You need the workers. And you need access to oil. The United States could have all three. But, for some reason, the Federal government wants everyone in debt and completely ignorant of the power of money (gold and silver).
noobtube
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri 04 Jan 2013, 12:48:54

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby mousepad » Wed 12 Jul 2023, 11:48:52

noobtube wrote:Using money you got cars, airplanes, jets, skyscrapers, on and on.

Without money, you get digital computers, cell phones, laser medical procedures, and I'm not quite sure what else.

what?

and not Saudi Arabia

Yes, ragheads. What can I say? Maybe they are too busy sucking the prophets d*ck.

you end up like the United States (stagnant standard of living for decades).

you mean a nation with one of the highest GDP per capita?
If anything, the US has too much growth and too much economic activity.
It creates grotesque consumption, tons of waste, depletes resources and attracts hordes of 3rd worlders.

You need a stable form of payment

Exactly!!! And for that the $$$ has been pretty good. I hate the inflation them gov idiots are producing, but all-in-all it's stable enough to do serious business.
mousepad
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu 26 Sep 2019, 09:07:56

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby noobtube » Wed 12 Jul 2023, 13:54:03

mousepad wrote:
you end up like the United States (stagnant standard of living for decades).

you mean a nation with one of the highest GDP per capita?
If anything, the US has too much growth and too much economic activity.
It creates grotesque consumption, tons of waste, depletes resources and attracts hordes of 3rd worlders.


People are starting to ask, what exactly is GDP supposed to measure? It is a useless measure of anything useful. Take Buffalo. It has low expenses, stable infrastructure, and a highly productive population. By GDP standards, Buffalo has a low GDP because it does not consume "grotesque" amounts of resources.

Take Las Vegas. It has high expenses, unstable infrastructure (water scarcity), and a very LOW productive population (casinos). By GDP standards, Las Vegas is an extremely rich city. But, of course, that is stupid.

Las Vegas is a product of the debt-based dollar. It could never exist in its current form if the dollar were still based on money. Las Vegas took off in the 1980s from sub-prime corporate debt. The only other place on the planet like it, is Macau. And, only China can afford the money-pit that is Macau.

You can't have a country full of cities like Las Vegas or Macau. But, you can have a country filled with cities like Buffalo.

GDP is a measure of how fast you burn through your resources. That is a sign of how fast you are destroying your "wealth", not how much "wealth" you have.

That is why GDP has been and will always be an idiotic measure of productivity or "wealth." That is why the standard of living has gotten worse, while the government claims GDP has increased.

Higher GDP destroyed the standard of living. It's higher GDP (consumption), not higher oil production.

mousepad wrote:
You need a stable form of payment

Exactly!!! And for that the $$$ has been pretty good. I hate the inflation them gov idiots are producing, but all-in-all it's stable enough to do serious business.


The dollar was stable up to the 1970s. If you call the dollar stable today, I would like to know what is your definition of stable.

Dollar prices didn't move much from 1776 to 1933, when the United States government outlawed gold.

Then in 1965, the dollar was redefined to not include silver.
Then in 1968, the dollar default on international gold payments.
Then in 1971, the US Treasury officially repudiated gold.
Then in 1976, all remaining silver was removed from US Mint production of dollars in any form.
Then in 1983, all copper was removed from the penny.
Then in 1986, the US Treasury realized there HAD to be some money in the dollar, and created the US bullion program. This is the only MONEY the US government produces. But, it is never used in circulation.

The United States government keeps playing around with the dollar to keep the con game going. And, you call that stable?

What you call stable today, previous generations would call wild inflation, currency debasement, and blatant manipulation.

I think you call the dollar "stable" because this arrangement personally benefits you, today. But, a truly stable dollar would turn your world upside-down. 3rd-worlders would be the least of your problems, as you try to keep the lights on and fuel in your tank.
noobtube
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri 04 Jan 2013, 12:48:54

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 12 Jul 2023, 18:17:57

mousepad wrote:
theluckycountry wrote:In truth Gold really wasn't necessary over the past 80 odd years because we had cheap oil "Black Gold" that lifted the living standards of westerners


Gold was never necessary. You could have picked sand, uranium, bananas or paper. Same thing.
Oil provides ENERGY. Energy is the crucial thing needed to do WORK. Without oil, the output of a human is about 80W. Combine the human with an oil powered tractor and the output is 400kW. A 5000 fold increase in power output. Or in other words, one single person can do as much work with a tractor as 5000 workers can do without.

THAT makes the standard of living go up. Nothing to do with gold.


Yes we know all that about oil and human work, I basically said as much in my post so you are belaboring the obvious. But you are wrong about Gold. How do you think the elites lived in luxury in Egypt and Rome and London all those centuries ago? What elevated their standards of living? They owned Gold of course! Gold bought the "workers" that oil came along and replaced. Gold bought the 5000 workers to build the road or the mansion or till the fields. Paper money only worked because it was backed by oil. Take away the cheap energy and the paper quickly becomes worthless, as has been shown countless times over the centuries.

And you are wrong in assuming sand or bananas or paper could have done the same. If it could have they would have used that instead. But for 5000 years they chose Gold, and still do today. Why? If you don't know by now, telling you won't make any difference. You're clearly anti-gold, you have bought the Alan Greenspan mantra and when the reset comes will be one of the 5000 toiling for their daily bread. Why do I say this? Because when the oil goes we collectively go back to the old ways, and the old ways, as we all know, were based on Gold as the monetary unit. The history of nations functioning without Gold began in 1970. 50 years of time. A blip in history, an anomaly, a period of time that will likely never be repeated.
Last edited by theluckycountry on Wed 12 Jul 2023, 18:40:14, edited 1 time in total.
après moi le déluge
theluckycountry
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2346
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 12 Jul 2023, 18:35:06

noobtube wrote:
AdamB wrote:
noobtube wrote:I think once you get past a certain age, it becomes impossible to gain this understanding

I think once you get past a certain age you've seen about every trick in the book and aren't a sucker anymore.


Yeah. Everyone knows old people are known for their open minds, willingness to change, and admit when they're wrong. Yep, that perfectly describes old people.


:lol: It's always the old people that get shafted, shafted by relying on SS and its pathetic pension, shafted by Y2K and the collapse of the tech bubble. The average old person stops learning and clings to the old ways. This is useful in certain areas of life, like diet, but it's catastrophic in finances.

They say money can't buy happiness, but it can buy nice food, a warm bed, luxuries and holidays and Thai massages. I've never seen anyone come out of a Thai massage unhappy. But I have seen plenty of unhappy poor people, old poor people struggling to pay their utilities and struggling to put meat on the table. Adam says old people have seen every trick in the book, and Adam has fallen for most of them. It's why he has two useless old Teslas in the carport. He couldn't afford a new one so he bought two near the end of their lifespans. Exactly the wrong thing to do and no doubt an old man decision based on Elon's marketing tricks.
après moi le déluge
theluckycountry
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2346
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby mousepad » Thu 13 Jul 2023, 05:57:06

noobtube wrote:That is a sign of how fast you are destroying your "wealth", not how much "wealth" you have.

No. GDP has nothing to do with wealth. It measures productivity.

noobtube wrote:That is why GDP has been and will always be an idiotic measure of productivity or "wealth." That is why the standard of living has gotten worse, while the government claims GDP has increased.

The most important factor in my opinion is QUALITY of LIFE, not Standard of Living. GDP is loosely coupled to standard of living, which is loosely coupled to quality of life. I'd rather have high QoL than high GDP. The US has high GDP, but should have much higher QoL for such a high GDP.

noobtube wrote:
mousepad wrote:
You need a stable form of payment

Exactly!!! And for that the $$$ has been pretty good. I hate the inflation them gov idiots are producing, but all-in-all it's stable enough to do serious business.


The dollar was stable up to the 1970s. If you call the dollar stable today, I would like to know what is your definition of stable.

I said "stable enough" to do serious business. There was always inflation, even before 1970
https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/

noobtube wrote: But, a truly stable dollar would turn your world upside-down. 3rd-worlders would be the least of your problems, as you try to keep the lights on and fuel in your tank.

you're confusing me. Above you spend time explaining why inflation is bad, now you're telling me if the $$$ was stable I would be in a world of hurt?
mousepad
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu 26 Sep 2019, 09:07:56

Re: THE Precious Metals: Gold Thread 2023 (Merged)

Unread postby mousepad » Thu 13 Jul 2023, 06:20:46

theluckycountry wrote:Take away the cheap energy and the paper quickly becomes worthless

Show me how gold keeps its value when taking away the oil.

And you are wrong in assuming sand or bananas or paper could have done the same.

why?
If it could have they would have used that instead. But for 5000 years they chose Gold, and still do today. Why?

Gold looks pretty, it's somehow hard to get and it has limited practical use. It's ideal as a basic currency.

Because when the oil goes we collectively go back to the old ways.

Yes, and going back to the old ways has nothing to do with gold or no-gold. It has all to do with lack of energy.

Gold was simply a broadly agreed on form of payment. There's nothing special about gold.
China used to make coins from sea shells. Why not? It doesn't matter. As long as you have people believing in its value. Same with BTC. As long as you have 2 idiots believing in its value you can trade it to infinity.
mousepad
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu 26 Sep 2019, 09:07:56

PreviousNext

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests