[Tanada]

Yes, some of the newer homes around here are being built with PVC because it has no scrap value so their is not the same fear of theft. If Thermal Depolymerization ever takes off that may change too

You know inside your house there is no reason you couldn't substitute steel wire for electric service and plastic pipes for water and sewer, but people are reluctant to change from what they are used too.

[frankthetank]

I've notice most new stuff is built with PEX.

These houses full of 1 inch copper? I don't get it. 10feet of 3/4inch is $20 (new)...how many feet are in these houses? These morons would be better off siphoning gas out of cars.

The land the house sits on is worth more then anything. Put a huge garden there and make a bundle.

[Kingcoal]

From what I've read, it's not just copper and other metals, it's EVERYTHING; including the kitchen sink, bathroom sink, toilets, bathtubs, cabinets, electrical fixtures, windows, doors, even wood floors. Some of the houses end up so gutted, they are structurally deficient and need to be torn down.

It goes something like this; a truck pulls up to a house with a sign on the side reading something like "home improvements." The gag is that these guys are doing renovations. They then gut the house taking everything, including that which is nailed down. All kinds of brand new building materials are recycled back into the housing market.

[steam_cannon]

Yes, some of the newer homes around here are being built with
PVC because it has no scrap value so their is not the same fear of
theft. If Thermal Depolymerization ever takes off that may change too

Interesting point...

You know inside your house there is no reason you couldn't
substitute steel wire for electric service and plastic pipes for
water and sewer, but people are reluctant to change from what
they are used too.

It is possible to substitute copper wire with other metals, like
aluminum (something scrappers are going for). But I don't know
about steel as a good substitute. Though I suppose tubes full of a
thick liquid conduction fluid or paste might work as a substitute.

Copper building wire requires less insulation and smaller
conduits than aluminum because aluminum, with its lower
conductivity, must be larger in diameter than copper to carry the
same current. This is why more copper wire can fit in a given
conduit, compared to aluminum. This greater “wire fill” is a special
advantage when a system is rewired or expanded. Another
advantage is that copper oxide also conducts electricity. So
connections and terminations will not overheat and do not require
the use of oxide-inhibiting compounds. In addition, copper also
provides superior thermal conductivity (60% better than aluminum),
which saves energy and accelerates heat dissipation. This property
is also especially helpful at terminations and connections.

http://www.copper.org/applications/elec ... stems.html

[Cashmere]

CPVC is the best option for DIY homeowner - like gluing kids toys.

Plumbers hate CPVC and like copper because sweating a copper joint looks like something that requires a skilled tradesman and solvent gluing plastic pipes looks like something any 10 year old could handle.

PEX is nice to install originally, but not so nice to do repairs on.

Between solvent welder CPVC and crimped PEX, I'll take CPVC for long term stability.

Steel for wiring? Huh? How about 1-it will rust/rot, 2-it is not a good conductor.

I think copper for pipes is obsolete.
I don't think that's the case for wiring, unless somebody wants to point me to a page that discusses why steel is just as good.

[dohboi]

Some people have pointed out how often threads here end up with discussions of cannibalism. I think those discussions, in the literal sense are a bit overblown, not to mention disgusting.

But this is the kind of cannibalism we are going to see more and more. Now it is restricted to abandoned houses. Soon it will be occupied houses and buildings. Given the end destination, you could say that this is a case of the old colonies of the empire striking back. Our infrastructure is being raped by the same global capitalist/corporatist system that helped European and American [s]pirates, vandals,[/s] imperialists rape the old colonies of their mineral and other resources.

So do we just follow the old advice to rape victims: "Lie back and enjoy it"?

[Ferretlover]

Curbing copper thieves by Brian Johnson Staff Writer
The Minnesota Mechanical Contractors Association has introduced copper theft prevention kits, including water-soluble stamps for pipes.
A local trade association aims to help contractors prevent copper theft, recover stolen items
It was a serious enough problem when theft was limited to construction sites and scrap yards. But when thieves started tearing gas pipes out of private homes in search of a quick buck, the public took notice and concern turned to outrage.
“Now you are talking about a life-and-death situation,” said Berg, marketing director for the Minnesota Mechanical Contractors Association.
Berg believes he has found a good way to help combat those crimes. He’s the driving force behind the MMCA’s new “Stamp Out Crime” program, which offers a simple way for contractors literally to leave their mark on copper pipes or other copper materials that might be stolen. …
Of the 49 contractors who responded to a recent MMCA survey, 62.5 percent said they had been victims of theft. Losses, which include stolen equipment as well materials, ranged from $1,500 to $40,000. …
Minnesota

Copper Thieves Add Oil Burners, Hot Water Heaters To Their "Must Have" List In One Massacusetts Region
In Haverhill, Massachusetts, The Eagle Tribune reports:
-The region has been hit by a wave of precious metal thefts as criminals attempt to cash in on a sellers market for the material at scrap yards. Recently, thieves have targeted foreclosed homes with valuable copper plumbing and other metals inside.
-In Lawrence, three men were arrested Jan. 31 as they attempted to flee from a vacant three-decker in a pickup truck laden with two oil burners, three hot water heaters and assorted copper pipes, police said. In a separate incident Jan. 29, copper pipes were reported stolen during a break into a vacant home at [...] in Lawrence, and earlier in January, another 10 copper pipes were stolen from a vacant home [...]. Vacant property break-ins most often occur as thieves scavenge for copper and other valuables that get left behind. In Haverhill, a real estate agent discovered a break and theft of copper pipes at a vacant Hillside Avenue home in foreclosure. The thieves punched holes in the walls on all three floors to get at the pipes. ...
Massachusetts

Copper thieves plundering Treasure Island
Jan 31, 2008 6:00 AM (71 days ago) by John Upton, The Examiner
SAN FRANCISCO (Map, News) - Plans to reopen a World War II-era restaurant and bar that treated winers and diners to splendid panoramic views from Treasure Island of The City and Bay were delayed after much of its copper electrical wiring was stolen.
Copper theft has become a national problem, fueled largely by a rise in price for the common construction metal, a result of China’s building boom. Last week, police in San Jose and Santa Clara announced that they had arrested 140 people on copper-theft charges following a yearlong sting operation.
Abandoned Navy buildings on Treasure Island have been hit hard by copper thieves over the last three to four years, according to Treasure Island Development Authority spokeswoman Marianne Thompson. …
California

[steam_cannon]

Copper Thieves Add Oil Burners, Hot Water Heaters To Their "Must Have" List In One Massacusetts Region

Nice links. Hey, on a positive note, we can expect that some of those
abandoned water heaters and scrap we see littering the country side
and river banks will start getting picked up!

[frankthetank]

Taking the windows! I'd love to catch that. Next they'll be peeling the shingles and tar paper off the roof. Digging up the septic and well.

People will do anything for a delicious $5 Subway sandwich

[Ferretlover]

Copper Thieves Add Oil Burners, Hot Water Heaters To Their "Must Have" List In One Massacusetts Region

Nice links. Hey, on a positive note, we can expect that some of those
abandoned water heaters and scrap we see littering the country side and river banks will start getting picked up!

Anything to keep them busy!
One morning, last year, my DH went to put a few things in the trash (on pick up day), and noticed that the recycling he had put out the night before was gone.
It seems there is a elderly man who lives somewhere around here (has a tricycle with a wagon) that steals recycling to cash in the pop cans, etc!
One man's trash is another man's treasure!

[heroineworshipper]

It's all fiction in Silicon Valley, where prices keep going up thanks to government bailouts.

[Denny]

Given the end destination, you could say that this is a case of the old colonies of the empire striking back. Our infrastructure is being raped by the same global capitalist/corporatist system that helped European and American pirates, vandals, imperialists rape the old colonies of their mineral and other resources. So do we just follow the old advice to rape victims: "Lie back and enjoy it"?

It would be interesting to assess where recycled copper scrap is going. I'd bet with the current recession hitting the economy, some of it is ending up in China. This housing financing situation is ending up as an economic tornado.

[funzone36]

It's all over.

[pjd2]

On AM radio in chicago, they were saying that some blocks on the northwest side were street-lightless, because criminals are knocking down the lamps, and steeling the copper inside.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... ?track=rss

[Twilight]

Steel has serious corrosion problems and has 10-40 times the resistivity of copper, making it is useless for wiring. In comparison, aluminium has only around 1.5 times the resistivity of copper and is very commonly used.

I would encourage people to spend a little time on LME, there is some educational value to be derived from it.

As an exercise, plot spot copper prices from 1 January 1998 to the present day. See what has happened? Are these news stories any surprise?

Then change the start date to 1 January 2006. It may of course be coincidence, but the recent cyclical pattern fits closely with the procurement cycle in heavy industry.

If you want to see one of those "we are so screwed" charts, plot spot lead from 1 January 1998 to the present day. Seeing that happen brought a few things home to me in a way a hundred news articles on housing collapse could not. Remember, this is lead.

Lastly, just to be mischievous I suggest gold bugs repeat the exercise for zinc and nickel. That nickel move took 3½ months.

We live in interesting times, that is for sure.

[Denny]

I read a most horrific story about vandals breaking into rural churches in Quebec and raiding their bronze and silver religious artifacts, many dating back 200 years, and even copper from the roof, gutters and downpipes.

Its beyond stealing, its sacrilege.

But, beyond that, just think how much sacrifice it took many years ago for those parishioners to buy those artifacts, as these were just rural people, not the wealthy. How much labor would it take back then, in the early 1800's to buy even one ounce of silver? Its a real slap in the face to them, and to God, to take that and melt it down into crude materials.

[smallpoxgirl]

Its beyond stealing, its sacrilege.

I dunno. It's the same reason all the pyramids and greek ruins are in the shape they're in. In times of scarcity, the past gets recycled to meet the needs of the present.

[Chuckmak]

Its beyond stealing, its sacrilege.

I dunno. It's the same reason all the pyramids and greek ruins are in the shape they're in. In times of scarcity, the past gets recycled to meet the needs of the present.

stop making sense, spg

[Twilight]

Oh, that has been happening in the UK for years and 200 years isn't even that old here. I have linked a story or two in metal theft threads here before, church bells and roof materials are a favourite. What is worse is sculptures disappearing, nondenominational works intended for public display. The thieves have trucks and cranes. In one famous case, a Henry Moore bronze vanished. You know what size those are.

[Tanada]

Steel for wiring? Huh? How about 1-it will rust/rot, 2-it is not a good conductor.

I don't think that's the case for wiring, unless somebody wants to point me to a page that discusses why steel is just as good.

Steel is not as good as copper, in fact pure iron has about 17% the conductivity of copper and Stainless Steel ranges from 15% down to 3%. The point however is not is Copper a better conductor, many metals are better than Iron. However Iron is cheap, and the volume used in wiring would be far too little to be worth scavanging for, stealing a car would pay off a lot quicker, or even just steeling the wheel rims. If you are going on a pure conductivity basis we should use Silver wire for everything.

Also in the good old days when Telegraph lines were being strung across the USA in the 1800's they used steel wire with a copper jacket, tghe stuff conducts electricity like any other copper wire with the same volume of copper in it, but it is very hard to scrap at a profit because the two metals are attached to each other closely. I suppose with modern technology it would be possible, but the profit is way less than scrapping pure copper.

Conductivity

Aluminum 59
Brass 28
Cadmium 19
Chromium 55
Cobalt 16.3
Constantin 3.24
Copper:
Hard drawn 89.5
Annealed 100
Gold 65
Iron:
Pure 17.7
Cast 2-12
Wrought 11.4
Lead 7
Manganin 3.7
Mercury 1.66
Molybdenum 33.2
Nichrome 1.45
Nickel 12-16
Nickel silver 5.3(18%)
Phosphor bronze 36
Platinum 15
Silver 106
Steel 3-15
Tin 13
Titanium 5
Tungsten 28.9
Zinc 28.2