[Ludi]

"Small farmers" sure sounds better than "peasants!"
With our increased knowledge of lower-labor farming techniques, the life of the small farmer could be considerably easier than it used to be, especially if these farmers weren't supporting a large population of non-farming people.
Still, not the easy life of driving to the grocery store for the microwave dinner, though...

[MonteQuest]

"Small farmers" sure sounds better than "peasants!"
With our increased knowledge of lower-labor farming techniques, the life of the small farmer could be considerably easier than it used to be, especially if these farmers weren't supporting a large population of non-farming people.
Still, not the easy life of driving to the grocery store for the microwave dinner, though...

I own 212 acres in NW Missouri. A small farm I grew up on with my grandparents. I loved getting up to milk the cows, gather the eggs, pump the drinking water from the well. We had 22 cats for the mice, and dogs for the rats. Spread the baryard manure and chicken house droppings on the fields. We ate well, worked hard, and had a better life for it.

[Ludi]

I own 212 acres in NW Missouri. A small farm I grew up on with my grandparents. I loved getting up to milk the cows, gather the eggs, pump the drinking water from the well. We had 22 cats for the mice, and dogs for the rats. Spread the baryard manure and chicken house droppings on the fields. We ate well, worked hard, and had a better life for it.

I agree, it can be a satisfying life for people, but difficult for those who aren't physically strong. Trying to be a small farmer myself, as a not very strong middle-aged lady, I have to try to find the least physically difficult ways of getting the work done. I don't feel comfortable advocating a way of life that I'm not personally capable of living.

[Ludi]

I was hoping more people would be interested in this thread, but I guess I didn't phrase the topic right, or something.
Wildwell gives an example of living on 1 Earth. I'm still living on almost 2, but see it possible to get down to one. If this is at all accurate, then why is powerdown seen as so impossible, so full of suffering?
I must be missing something...no surprise there.

[gnm]

I don't think powerdown is impossible - just improbable. History would show us that those who have the means/weapons/etc will take whatever steps they feel are neccesary and use whatever force they can to maintain or improve thier status of living.

-G

[CrudeAwakening]

Not according to the evidence of the past thirty years, anyway.

This period has seen Westerners pull out all the stops in order to maintain their standard of living. This has often involved both parents working, in many cases for longer hours, and increased levels of borrowing.

We have been sacrificing our actual standard of living, to keep up our material standard of living. Living standards have, in reality, been declining for some time, but, rather than admit that the golden age is over and adapt to these reduced circumstances, we have come up with all sorts of tricks to keep the party going.

Housing is becoming less and less affordable, and yet people just won't give up on that dream of home ownership, willingly mortgaging themselves into a lifetime of debt servitude. We want what our parents had (and more), having been gulled into believing the myth that prosperity should increase generation after generation. We perceive our traditionally high standard of living as being something of a birthright, and contort ourselves, our families, and our economies in the process of chasing it.

Powerdown will only come when it is forced upon us.

[vision-master]

I'm glad my parents came from the depression. I can do without as long as I have some good whiskey & fine pipe tobacco on hand.

What are the Boomer kids going to do?

[billp]

Perhaps the system will continue until something crashes?

Like coal transporation?

Senior citizen

[SILENTTODD]

I'm glad my parents came from the depression. I can do without as long as I have some good whiskey & fine pipe tobacco on hand.

I’m with you vision-master, I get an extra bottle of Seagrams 7 to save each month, and have recently ordered a case of Famous Grouse Scotch for after the SHTF use only. First things first!

CrudeAwakening- I tend to agree with you right now. I don’t see ANY public awareness of this Tsunami that is about hit the first world economic system in the next several years at the latest. Maybe even by the end of this year if SA past its peak in 2006 and is on an 8% decline as some have shown evidence of.

In America looking historically, Americans can only be moved in times of crises. The American Civil War, the First, and especially the Second World War. Americans have done remarkable turn rounds in their behavior when they were aware of what really was at stake.

America was fortunate in the 2 greatest crises since it’s founding to have had possibly its 2 greatest leaders since Washington. Lincoln for the Civil War, and FDR for the Depression/WWII.

I rate myself as fairly conservative and quite pragmatic, but the current administration of this country (who I can honestly say I never voted for, or “selected” the first time) has shown itself totally incompetent of dealing with the kind of problems this country will have to come to terms with in the next 10 years. Probably have made the outcome in the near future much worse.

I address this to Americans, start sizing up your candidates closely now. Your next President will have to deal with the immediate problems of Peak Oil. You need to judge them on that the most, because this will determine how much longer this country can last.

[Snowstorm]

In America looking historically, Americans can only be moved in times of crises. The American Civil War, the First, and especially the Second World War. Americans have done remarkable turn rounds in their behavior when they were aware of what really was at stake.

In those cases they temporarily changed their behavior, those crises were of a different nature than what's coming. They knew that if the war was won, they could go back to their former habits, so their worldview wasn't really changed. They could temporarily change to win the war while still believing in material progress. I don't think many Americans will voluntarily change to a lower material standard of living as a permanent strategy, that does require a turnaround in their outlook, and not only are people resistant to that kind of change, they're being assaulted with advertising propaganda daily telling them to consume more and more. The vast majority of Americans will change only when nature forces them to.

[IanC]

I don't think so, either. We'll need to be forced into it. I think this is a good thing. We've been conditioned so long to consume, that we'll need nearly insurmoutable government regulations to keep us from overconsuming in the future. I can easily foresee ever increasing carbon taxes, restrictions on what can be produced and bought (think light bulbs), and strict regulations on transportation.

I think I read it here: people save money, not energy. Forget altruism - this ubercapitalist society must have serious economic carrots and sticks in order to change the behavior of its citizens. As a bike commuter, I can't WAIT!!!

-IanC

[frankthetank]

Give me a fishing pole, a bike, and some hiking boots. I'm lucky having grown up in a poor household and wearing rags. I'm not quite 30, but no one in my senior class (that i remember) had a cell phone, and very few had computers. I'm not chasing anyone, i'm just trying to avoid death! Too much fun reading all this doomer porn

[jeezlouise]

In America looking historically, Americans can only be moved in times of crises. The American Civil War, the First, and especially the Second World War. Americans have done remarkable turn rounds in their behavior when they were aware of what really was at stake.

In those cases they temporarily changed their behavior, those crises were of a different nature than what's coming. They knew that if the war was won, they could go back to their former habits, so their worldview wasn't really changed. They could temporarily change to win the war while still believing in material progress. I don't think many Americans will voluntarily change to a lower material standard of living as a permanent strategy, that does require a turnaround in their outlook, and not only are people resistant to that kind of change, they're being assaulted with advertising propaganda daily telling them to consume more and more. The vast majority of Americans will change only when nature forces them to.

Agreed. The American of today is far, far removed (read: fatter and much less informed) from the American of sixty years ago. Those people still at least had the privation of their childhood and their parent's lives to draw upon as a contrast to the relative abundance of the late 1940's. Today's adult American is, for the most part, basically an overgrown child, unwilling and unable to cope with or change in response to anything negative. Looking at my fellow man, on a day-to-day basis... I don't see even nature forcing them to change. Change to what? I see nature forcing them to scapegoat anything and everybody and step all over each other to hand over their God-given rights to anyone on TV who says they'll bring back "normalcy". Forgive my cynicism, but I fully see most of the people in my general area either killing themselves or killing each other before even thinking about, I dunno, building a solar oven... cuz they never heard of such a thing. Heat comes from gas, or it doesn't come. That's it.

[magician]

yeah no kidding about the iniability to change. im 26 and most of my peers are up to their eyeballs in debt. they have no diy skills. no real job prospects (im also under what most people consider a living wage. they dont know what to do with duct tape, much less how to start a matchless fire in under 30 mins. unfortunatly im totally expecting a fuckton of violence as people hit the wall economically. give us a good push in gas and we go down. give us a good push in food prices.......well lets just say none of us have seen or believe in the possibility of scarcity. although the redneck kids in this town (the best being ones that grew up redneck and are now hoodrats, dropouts, urban poor, ect and own guns and have outdoor skills) are learning to do for self on some levels. we are really connected with such people and they always have something to barter like homade booz or homegrown tobacco or vegtables, tool use, help in diy projectc, ect. recently as more and more of them cannot afford any type of health care, they are coming to me for advice regarding the herbal remedies i make in my herbal extractor. this has made me popular as of late. they know this is an answer but so many of them are unfortunatly too ill-equipped educationally (read: intellectual crippels) and too far removed from dead grandparents to seek out this kind of info and put it into good use.

its useful as our small city/large town is going under with the crack problem. the police are undermanned and undergunned with outside drugdealers from detroit. 911 calls dont send people to our neighborhood for an hour on avg. so all these rednecks have shotguns and two-way radios............

but in general, i work with the public at restaurants. ultraviolence everywhere in proportion to scarcity/hunger distrobution. after all no gas means no heat.

--frater coyote

[Concerned]

Not according to the evidence of the past thirty years, anyway.

Powerdown will only come when it is forced upon us.

Pretty much Im working harder than ever and flareing off excess energy in consumption of all sorts. Enjoy it while it lasts I say!

[CrudeAwakening]

Funny how we're all looking at the future pondering the possible loss of our standard of living - hasn't it been going on for some time now?

Granted, the decline in living standards seems likely to accelerate in the future, but I see this as an exacerbation of an existing trend, rather than anything particularly novel.

[Kristen]

The only thing that is constant is change.

[SchroedingersCat]

Most people don't understand permanent. For that matter, most people don't understand how a thermostat works. When things start getting bad, they will be pledging allegiance to whomever will claim to have an answer. We will need an army of educators to help people regain some of the basic skills that every generation before the last one knew. Think of the civil defense teams that every neighborhood had in the 50's and 60's and change it to self-reliance teams and we might have a chance at keeping violence to a minimum.

[Aaron]

I recently lost a Long post ranting about Prepers actually.

I contend that any solution that does not include the vast unaware masses, is really no solution at all.

Do we really expect that any of us will be immune to the social calamity of depletion?

How will you avoid the economic consequences?

Or the military consequences?

Or environmental?

You won't.

All these will visit you... seek you out.

You can run... but you can't hide.

Don't fear the consequences of Peak Oil... fear how your fellow humans will react to it.