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THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 13 Apr 2023, 16:46:00

A report well worth reading.

Linear no Threshold LNT
Time to Eliminate LNT: The NRC Needs to Adopt LT and Eliminate ALARA

The Linear No-Threshold (LNT) model has been the basis of radiation regulatory policy for more than 70 years but, lacking valid scientific foundation, remains only an assumption. The LNT extrapolation from observed high-dose effects to putative low-dose responses entails that all ionizing radiation exposure down to zero is harmful proportionally to dose; this implicitly denies the existence of a protective biological response to the observed initial radiation-induced damage. Denying such a response, LNT further implies that the harm is cumulative throughout life, regardless of how low the dose or dose rate. But there are evolved protective biological responses that quickly repair or remove any radiogenic damage from low doses and dose rates, thereby preventing damage from accumulating. LNT and its offspring, ALARA (as low as reasonably achievable), do not err on the side of caution and are not conservative. Instead the public needs protection from radiophobia rather than from low-dose/rate radiation exposure. The NRC and other regulatory agencies should no longer base their radiation protection standards on LNT. Instead regulatory policy should be based on a linear (down to a) threshold (LT) model.

Linear no-threshold model; ALARA; low-dose radiation exposure risk; adaptive response; Nuclear Regulatory Commission; radiation protection

The Linear No-Threshold (LNT) model has been applied to low-dose and low-dose-rate ionizing radiation for more than 70 years, but it lacks valid scientific foundation and so remains only an assumption. Nonetheless, this assumption remains the orthodox foundation of radiation protection science and forms the basis of radiation regulations and public policy. That is, radiation protection policies are dominated by a paradigm based on an assumption without empirical foundation. Radiophobia, promoted by use of LNT (and ALARA), has prompted three petitions for rulemaking (PRMs) to the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) on 23 June 2015 (80 FR 35870), requesting that it cease using this model in favor of a model indicating radiation-induced benefit at low doses (i.e., hormesis). The NRC requested public comments and that its Advisory Committee on the Medical Uses of Isotopes (ACMUI) consider the requests in the PRMs. In its Final Report dated October 28, 2015, the ACMUI, after considering the petitions, made the following recommendation to the Commission (emphasis added):

The “correct” dose-response model for radiation carcinogenesis remains an unsettled scientific question. There is a large, and growing, body of scientific literature as well as mechanistic considerations which suggest that 1) the LNT model may overstate the carcinogenic risk of radiation at diagnostic medical, occupational, and environmental doses and 2) such low doses may, in fact, exert a hormetic (i.e., a beneficial or protective) effect. However, in the absence of definitive refutation of the LNT model and while strongly encouraging continued investigation critically comparing alternative models, regulatory authorities should exercise prudent (though not excessive) conservatism in formulating radiation protection standards. The ACMUI therefore recommends that, for the time being and subject to reconsideration as additional scientific evidence becomes available, the NRC continue to base the formulation of radiation protection standards on the LNT model.

Unfortunately, while the ACMUI acknowledged the vast and ever-growing body of scientific literature refuting the Linear No-Threshold (LNT) model – often also affirming hormesis – it nevertheless recommended that the NRC maintain its reliance on the LNT model, because it would be the “prudent” and “conservative” regulatory strategy to take. The ACMUI apparently believes that LNT model-derived regulations and policies, since they assume the maximum harm, are protective of public health. But the aftermath of the Chernobyl and Fukushima nuclear accidents demonstrate the falsity of this assumption.

In fact, overestimated risk has devastated hundreds of thousands of lives, many shortened thereby. Furthermore, the radiophobia promoted by the LNT-derived “as low as reasonably achievable” (ALARA) principle (a regulatory requirement that was not specifically addressed in the ACMUI report) is firmly entrenched in medical radiological imaging. This one-sided assumption of radiogenic damage without biological response blinds radiologists and patients to actual risks, such as misdiagnosis due to nondiagnostic (underexposed) images or avoidance of medical imaging. Additionally, it obscures and denies demonstrable potential health benefits from the radiation itself, thus compounding the error. While demanding “definitive” refutation of LNT before regulatory policy is changed, the ACMUI leaves unspecified what they would consider definitive refutation. Thereby they reserve the sole right to decide what evidence would suffice as refutation, all but guaranteeing that the current policy remains in place indefinitely.

Interestingly, there has never been any “definitive” or undisputable evidence supporting LNT. In contrast, there is “definitive” evidence that its use has resulted in harmful, even deadly, consequences. There are countless scientists whose performance, or at least acknowledgment, of voluminous experimental and observational studies already convinces them that the refutation has been definitive. This is the point that lies at the crux of our argument. The ACMUI misassigns the burden of proof. Rather than those with the preponderance of evidence bearing the burden, it should rightly be borne by those who have none that their data actually support. The ACMUI seems to be shirking its responsibility by awaiting “definitive” refutation from the putative “mainstream” of expert scientific opinion, such as represented by scientific committees like NCRP, BEIR, and ICRP. Such change will not likely come soon, since these committees are comprised of significant overlapping members. The recommendations from these groups have led to a long-term, mutually-reinforcing “scientific consensus” that has utterly failed the public and has produced far more harm than good, by repeatedly defending and promoting the fictitious LNT model. Many people have died as a result of unjustified and unsupported policies formulated on the basis of LNT, so there is great urgency in terminating regulatory use of LNT and its corollary the ALARA principle.

LNT advocates have made scientific claims pertaining to low-dose radiation exposure that have proven to be false. One is that low-dose radiogenic up-regulation of protective adaptive responses only partially offsets the carcinogenic damage. Another is the self-justifying admission that epidemiological studies cannot detect the risk because of the noisy background [1,2]. When it serves their interests, however, Little, for one, has reversed himself, unashamedly asserting that certain recent large epidemiological studies by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) demonstrate that low-dose/rate radiation increases cancer mortality-but only by 0.1% over a baseline risk of some 25% [3]. Little thus defends two incompatible claims: first, that epidemiological studies cannot provide evidence for LNT because of statistical invisibility, and, second, that if some how they appear to provide this evidence, then they should be uncritically accepted as having, in fact, accomplished the impossible. But the appearance of success in the IARC studies is based on circular reasoning, as well as on illegitimate statistical maneuvering that satisfies a desire for mathematical convenience, as we (BS and JAS) have shown, thereby resolving the apparent paradox [4]. Considerations of biology and physics should be the source and/or final arbiter of scientific hypotheses about ionizing radiation, and not assumptions that happen to yield mathematically convenient relationships. If epidemiological studies indicate no significant radiation-related excess cancer at low doses (<100-200 mSv), it is not simply because the expected effect is too small to be detected. Statistical invisibility is a straw-man argument that applies only to LNT, since, rather than being invisible, the increased cancer risk is nonexistent, or, more precisely, is actually negative (hormetic) – as hundreds of studies have demonstrated with statistical significance. That is why evidence for hormesis is, in fact, statistically visible, and that is why it is necessarily ignored by LNT proponents in their determination to preserve the demonstrably false LNT assumption as the basis of policy [5].

The LNT assumption derives from incomplete, early-20th-century genetic experimental observations of mutations in fruit flies. It was a result of extrapolation far below the experimental range, an a priori unjustified maneuver that the data, furthermore, suggested was not even accurate [6]. Experimenter Hermann Muller, in his 1946 Nobel Lecture, asserted unequivocally that there is no threshold for harm all the way down to zero dose (or dose rate), despite the fact that the data only extended from high doses down to 4,000 mGy and from high dose rates down to 0.1 mGy/min-making his claim a stunning non-sequitur. In the 2-3 years following his Nobel Lecture, experimental data obtained at doses down to 250 mGy and dose rates as low as 0.0174 mGy/min suggested a Linear Threshold (LT) – i.e., linear down to a threshold-relationship between mutation frequency and radiation dose. Furthermore, contrary to the interpretation of the experimenters, their data suggested a marked dose rate effect at this dose threshold [6]. Ten years later the NAS BEAR committee extended this initial error from fruit flies to humans and applied it to carcinogenesis and birth defects in subsequent generations. So, there has been no evidence, “definitive” or otherwise, supporting the LNT model, nor has any evidence since then ever validated the carcinogenicity of low-dose radiation exposure. On the contrary, countless experimental and observational studies show that such doses do not cause cancer, but more likely help prevent it, through its stimulation of several layers of evolved biological defence mechanisms.

The assumed LNT extrapolation from high-dose to low-dose responses entails not only that all ionizing radiation exposure down to zero is harmful, proportional to dose, but also entails the denial that there is any adaptive biological response at all to the (undisputed) initial radiation-induced damage. It is also taken to mean that radiation yields cumulative harm throughout life, regardless of how low the dose or dose rate. Both claims are demonstrably false, since there is an evolved protective biological response, and any dose rate low enough to allow that response to take place permits remediation of any damage that may be done in intact organisms by either repair or, that failing, removal of the damaged cells by apoptosis or the immune system. Thus, LNT has led to regulations and policies that are not merely unneeded for protection but, on the contrary, turn out in practice to produce great harm [7-9]. For example, more than 1,600 deaths resulted after the Fukushima nuclear accident from the misguided LNT-based evacuation policy, both in the immediate aftermath and from its being kept in force for many years.

Astonishingly, the atomic-bomb survivor cohort of the Life Span Study (LSS), the single most important dataset for estimating radiation effects in humans after acute high dose-rate exposures, is consistent with at least a LT dose-response relationship, if not a hormetic relationship [8,9]. Yet the regulatory basis of radiation “protection” remains firmly wedded to the LNT fiction and its consequently unjustifiable ALARA policy. The bottom line is that neither LNT nor ALARA errs, in fact, on the side of caution, but rather errs firmly on the side of harm.

It is also noteworthy that the spontaneous endogenous mutation rate – due to reactive oxygen species (ROS) produced by normal metabolism-is roughly a million-fold greater than that due to low-dose-rate radiation. The minuscule ratio of radiogenic-to-nonradiogenic (endogenous) DNA damage increases at much higher doses and/or dose rates, but it remains small for the radiation exposures that would be encountered by the public from either medical imaging or nuclear accidents, or even by radiation workers [10].

Different mechanisms operate at high and low doses delivered acutely. At very high doses delivered at sufficiently high dose rates, the body is indeed unable to repair or eliminate all the damage done, whereas the biological responses at low doses or low dose rates more than serve to overcome any damage. These include DNA repair (at the molecular level), apoptosis and bystander/rescue effects (on the cellular level), antioxidant production (on the tissue level), and immunological removal of surviving damaged cells (on the organismal level). These layers of adaptive responses collaborate for the harmonized function of all organisms and involve more than 150 genes [8,11-14]. If there is any characteristic feature of healthy living organisms, it is the naturally selected ability to respond to damage in order to preserve homeostasis. Had such biological responses not evolved, endogenous DNA damage alone would cause us to develop cancer every minute of the day-even if the earth lacked natural radiation from ground and sky.


More at link above quote.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 13 Apr 2023, 17:33:11

Radiophobia, promoted by use of LNT (and ALARA), has prompted three petitions for rulemaking to the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission requesting that it cease using this model in favor of a model indicating radiation-induced benefit at low doses.

LNT has led to regulations and policies that are not merely unneeded for protection but, on the contrary, turn out in practice to produce great harm ... Astonishingly, the atomic-bomb survivor cohort of the Life Span Study, the single most important dataset for estimating radiation effects in humans after acute high dose-rate exposures, is consistent with at least a LT dose-response relationship... The bottom line is that neither LNT nor ALARA errs, in fact, on the side of caution, but rather errs firmly on the side of harm.


If this research is accurate they make a good case for the limited use of nuclear weapons on the battlefield. Perhaps a small nuclear exchange in central Europe, up to Finland, and by employing modern fusion design devices it would yield valuable data for further research. The spread of radiation around the northern hemisphere could even benefit American citizens? All the data from the Japanese events are devoid of fusion weapon benefits, which is obviously an important innovation in natural health. Ie: high levels of radiation without much subsequent fallout, though the study makes the case for having some fallout around as an ongoing benefit.

If there is any characteristic feature of healthy living organisms, it is the naturally selected ability to respond to damage in order to preserve homeostasis. Had such biological responses not evolved, endogenous DNA damage alone would cause us to develop cancer every minute of the day-even if the earth lacked natural radiation from ground and sky.


Unfortunately in Australia we don't have any nuclear reactors capable of blowing up and providing these health benefits that the Ukrainians and the Japanese enjoy.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 20 Jul 2023, 17:14:55

Japan's disposal plan draws opposition

The Fijian government reaffirmed on Wednesday its opposition to Japan's plan to discharge nuclear-contaminated wastewater into the Pacific Ocean, saying that the region is not a dumping ground for countries like Japan to release its nuclear waste.

While moving a motion regarding this in parliament on Wednesday, Fiji's Deputy Prime Minister Manoa Kamikamica said that the Pacific Ocean should not be seen as an easy and convenient dumping ground for unwanted and dangerous materials.

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202304/ ... b8cf5.html

And for those who don't trust chinadaily as a news outlet for this basic story.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 023-07-12/
https://www.science.org/content/article ... ater-ocean
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 22 Jul 2023, 18:04:29

The end of Oppenheimer's energy dream

ARTICLE BY | Allison Macfarlane is the director of the School of Public Policy and Global Affairs at the University of British Columbia and former chairman of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

Modular reactors are supported by ideology alone

Nuclear energy is both lauded as a baseload renewable power and decried as risky, expensive and outdated technology. Small modular reactors have received billions in venture capital and unprecedented media attention, but are they a red herring, with philosophy, rather than science, driving our fixation? Professor Allison Macfarlane explores the current sombre state of the technology, where it is falling short, and what philosophy is driving the interest in this unpromising tech...

News broke last week that Oklo, a company that has designed an advanced micro-nuclear power plant, will go public via a merger with AltC Acquisition Corporation. Co-founder of AltC Acquisition and Chair of Oklo’s board, Sam Altman, hopes to raise US$500 million with this offering. Oklo’s news is a sample of the almost-constant barrage of excitement around the potential of small modular reactors (SMRs) to help mitigate climate change. But can they?

The Oklo story is intriguing, since its license application to build and operate its Aurora design reactor was outright rejected by the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the country’s nuclear safety regulator (full disclosure: I was Chairman of the NRC from 2012-2014). And note that such rejection is an accomplishment: the NRC rarely outright rejects an application, instead working with licensees until they...


Full article
https://iai.tv/articles/the-end-of-oppe ... _auid=2020

If only we had as much cheap oil as we had in 1945, we could make all these systems work, until we ran out of cheap oil that is :roll:
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 23 Jul 2023, 09:38:28

Just more anti-nuclear hysteria posing itself as scientific reasoning.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 23 Jul 2023, 10:23:01

theluckycountry wrote:If only we had as much cheap oil as we had in 1945, we could make all these systems work, until we ran out of cheap oil that is :roll:

We ran out of cheap oil circa 1970. You seemed to get along fine, dropping out of high school and making it to retirement with some coin in your pocket, and all the systems working since then to your advantage.
How about we let folks who graduated high school and obviously kept the world spinning these last 53 years since cheap oil ran out, and you don't need to worry yourself about things beyond your education and understanding? Just enjoy the benefits provided by those who did graduate high school and carried along the less educated that thought high oil prices are all SO SCARY.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 25 Jul 2023, 03:41:45

The cited article is chock full of circular logic. We can't build experimental new reactors because nobody has built them proving they work...but we know they will be too expensive to build because they are experimental designs...because western construction is over budget and grossly delayed.

Meanwhile for decades the US and USSSR navies built modular ship reactors in series and on budget. Also Asian companies are routinely building new power station on schedule and budget within accepted industry norms for major projects. China has built and is operating the first proof of concept molten salt reactor. But in the interest of killing nuclear power to fit our ideology our "expert" simply ignores these fundamental facts which disprove their circular reasoning for what it is.

Only someone equally unaware of the actual facts would fall for such a poorly argued case against the switch to nuclear power.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 27 Jul 2023, 18:48:47

Seems to be on topic of this discussion.

As the shipping industry intensifies efforts to reduce its carbon footprint, an increasing number of industry participants are turning to small nuclear reactors as a potential zero-emission clean energy source to power commercial ships.

In the latest development, nuclear technology company Newcleo has partnered with Italy-based Fincantieri and RINA to explore the potential applications of Newcleo’s lead-cooled small modular reactors (SMRs) technology in the shipping industry.

The LFR technology (Lead-cooled Fast Reactor) developed by Newcleo offers the potential for nuclear propulsion in naval vessels, with a small reactor capable of producing 30MW of electricity, requiring fewer refuelings and limited maintenance. The feasibility study explore whether the technology can be adapted for use on large vessels.



https://gcaptain.com/fincantieri-and-ri ... wer-study/
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 28 Jul 2023, 08:03:37

Newfie wrote:Seems to be on topic of this discussion.

As the shipping industry intensifies efforts to reduce its carbon footprint, an increasing number of industry participants are turning to small nuclear reactors as a potential zero-emission clean energy source to power commercial ships.

In the latest development, nuclear technology company Newcleo has partnered with Italy-based Fincantieri and RINA to explore the potential applications of Newcleo’s lead-cooled small modular reactors (SMRs) technology in the shipping industry.

The LFR technology (Lead-cooled Fast Reactor) developed by Newcleo offers the potential for nuclear propulsion in naval vessels, with a small reactor capable of producing 30MW of electricity, requiring fewer refuelings and limited maintenance. The feasibility study explore whether the technology can be adapted for use on large vessels.



https://gcaptain.com/fincantieri-and-ri ... wer-study/


35 years ago when I was still young and foolish this was a great hope of mine. Sadly while several nations including the USA, West Germany and USSR all built nuclear powered prototype merchant ships only Russia has continued to use them into the modern era. Anti-nuclear Luddites claiming to be environmentalists did everything they could to kill merchant nuclear shipping in its cradle. They are growing weaker as the population of fanatics dies off from old age but they still keep a death grip on nuclear technology in Western Europe and North America.
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 28 Jul 2023, 10:03:15

nuclear powered prototype merchant ships


NS Savannah was the first nuclear-powered merchant ship. She was built in the late 1950s at a cost of $46.9 million (including a $28.3 million nuclear reactor and fuel core)


This is the problem. Uneconomic. Just because you can build a ship with a nuclear reactor in it doesn't mean it should be done. Sure with the military who cares, a billion here 7 billion there, it's all taxpayer money and you don't need to generate a profit, but a commercial ship needs to turn a profit over it's lifetime. And then there is the cost of removing the old reactor and decommissioning it, which is super expensive and is rarely done. I remember a discourse here, probably on this thread, where I pointed out that only one nuclear reactor in america has ever been decommissioned and cleaned up, and even then the old fuel rods were left on site. What a joke!

It is 60 years since America’s first commercial nuclear power station was opened by President Dwight D. Eisenhower at Shippingport, near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on May 26, 1958. But the hopes of a nuclear future with power “too cheap to meter” are now all but over. All that is left is the trillion-dollar cleanup.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... ss/560945/

If any of this junk had ever been cleaned up and properly/safely, stored, I might be more sanguine about the issue. But all that happens is it gets pushed under the rug for the next generation to worry about. Or sunk in the ocean as the russians (and Americans) used to do.

Apr 19, 2022U.S. Biden launches $6 billion effort to save nuclear power plants, to help combat climate change

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nuclear-po ... te-change/

Another conjob. 6 Billion is chump change compared to what it would cost to clean them up, and probably wouldn't buy you a new one either. They'll change out the pipes and valves and keep pushing them well past their design life, just disasters waiting to happen. And why all this chatter about small nuclear reactors? Because they can't afford to build the big ones anymore of course. China can build them but they use coal, because it's economic.

After 18 years, Europe's largest nuclear reactor starts regular output 1.6 gigawatt
The cost of Olkiluoto-3 was initially put at €3.2bn, but in 2012 Areva estimated the overall cost at closer to €8.5bn.

final price tag at around 11 billion euros
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/af ... 023-04-15/

For 10 Billion dollars China plans to build 270 gigawatts of coal fired. So over 200 times the power output of the Finish plant and cheaper too. It's a no-brainer.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/ ... down-coal/
https://www.nucnet.org/news/finland-s-r ... t-3-5-2021

Nuclear was a cool waste of money in the days of cheap oil but now it's dead, get over it. You might as well hope for Fusion reactors as for a future of Uranium ones. But by all means, wake me up when they have a dozen or so small nukes powering US cities. "Yawn"
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 28 Jul 2023, 10:59:06

Tanada wrote:35 years ago when I was still young and foolish this was a great hope of mine. Sadly while several nations including the USA, West Germany and USSR all built nuclear powered prototype merchant ships only Russia has continued to use them into the modern era. Anti-nuclear Luddites claiming to be environmentalists did everything they could to kill merchant nuclear shipping in its cradle. They are growing weaker as the population of fanatics dies off from old age but they still keep a death grip on nuclear technology in Western Europe and North America.

Tanada, any information on past, present and future decommissioning plans, particularly as they relate to the US Navy. As America was, as usual, the first in the world to get this technological wonder done, it seems like they must have done something with the decommissioned subs or ships by now.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 28 Jul 2023, 13:25:35

AdamB wrote:
Tanada wrote:35 years ago when I was still young and foolish this was a great hope of mine. Sadly while several nations including the USA, West Germany and USSR all built nuclear powered prototype merchant ships only Russia has continued to use them into the modern era. Anti-nuclear Luddites claiming to be environmentalists did everything they could to kill merchant nuclear shipping in its cradle. They are growing weaker as the population of fanatics dies off from old age but they still keep a death grip on nuclear technology in Western Europe and North America.

Tanada, any information on past, present and future decommissioning plans, particularly as they relate to the US Navy. As America was, as usual, the first in the world to get this technological wonder done, it seems like they must have done something with the decommissioned subs or ships by now.


Since the 1990's decomissioned naval reactors are encased in a transport and disposal container and shipped to Hanford, Washington for long term storage. You can read all about it HERE.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Sun 30 Jul 2023, 18:19:49

AdamB wrote:
Tanada wrote:35 years ago when I was still young and foolish this was a great hope of mine. Sadly while several nations including the USA, West Germany and USSR all built nuclear powered prototype merchant ships only Russia has continued to use them into the modern era. Anti-nuclear Luddites claiming to be environmentalists did everything they could to kill merchant nuclear shipping in its cradle. They are growing weaker as the population of fanatics dies off from old age but they still keep a death grip on nuclear technology in Western Europe and North America.

Tanada, any information on past, present and future decommissioning plans, particularly as they relate to the US Navy. As America was, as usual, the first in the world to get this technological wonder done, it seems like they must have done something with the decommissioned subs or ships by now.


My eldest son works everyday tearing apart nuclear subs and ships. He also rehabs some.

Just recently, My wife and I attended family day for a tour of the facilities. It was the first "Family Day" at the Bremerton Shipyard since 911. I was very impressed.

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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 30 Jul 2023, 18:45:05

Carinke,

What did you see that stuck with you?
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 30 Jul 2023, 19:22:31

careinke wrote:My eldest son works everyday tearing apart nuclear subs and ships. He also rehabs some.

Figures. The local high school drop out claimed that only 1 nuke reactor had ever been decommissioned, I figured it was information biased towards what someone who can't be bothered to find out first would spout pretending everyone else is retarded or can't use google.
careinke wrote:Just recently, My wife and I attended family day for a tour of the facilities. It was the first "Family Day" at the Bremerton Shipyard since 911. I was very impressed.
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That sounds cool. One vacation a year I take the wife to the beach, my other walkabouts I run around looking for cool museums, events, air shows, retired Navy battleships and whatnot, sounds like you hit a good one.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 30 Jul 2023, 20:30:54

https://twitter.com/mazzenilsson/status ... 5590312960

If the pro-Russian coup in Niger is a success, it is serious for Europe. 1/3 of uranium used by France comes from Niger

Perhaps the new junta asks France to get out and asks Russia to come in.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Mon 31 Jul 2023, 05:21:51

Newfie wrote:Carinke,

What did you see that stuck with you?


Nicely worded question, your right, we could not bring in phones or cameras into the area. Some workers do bring phones to work, but they have to get all the cameras drilled out of them at a local phone store first. My son does not bring his in, he says it gives him some time away from screens, so he brings a book to read instead. Like me, he is a voracious reader.

The first thing I noticed was some great security with tons of surveillance, well armed guards, sniper towers etc. Of course I immediately start looking for flaws and ways to beat their systems. It's an old habit from my time in the service, where that was one of my major jobs. I got to say this would be a tough nut to crack, and I'm pretty good at it.

This place can pretty much make anything, and in many cases they have to reproduce stuff that is no longer made and in some cases the company that made the part no longer exists.

In addition, all of the skills needed can be taught right on site with the class rooms directly over the work areas.

The wood shop was pretty impressive. Its primary mission was custom making the ship support structure used when the ship/boat is in drydock. The vertical supports are huge beams with a section towards the floor having about 4 feet of concrete spliced in with wood above and below as the wooden structure has to be sitting on the bottom as the ship is maneuvered over it before pumping the drydock out.

In addition the wood shop makes all of the signs, shipyard awards and recognition plaques etc. They have some amazing woods, like heartwood that has to be sanded while suited up in an isolation chamber, because the dust is toxic. They did beautiful work.

I'm calling them shops, but they were all warehouse size.

The welding shop was pretty cool, I did not know there were so many different types of welds made with a variety of equipment. I did see some welding diagrams. They have their own symbols for the different types of welds just like an electrical diagram.

One floor in the metal shop was about the size of a basketball court and had a 1.5 inch thick steel floor with 1.5 X 1.5 inch square holes laid out in a grid pattern 1.5 inches apart. They made lots of square metal posts of varying heights to use in the holes. This allows custom made jigs that can be easily reconfigure depending on the tasks.

Lots of different metal cutters from Sawzalls to water jets, to argon torches, to different types of lasers. I mean HUGE lasers.

Other cool stuff included various types of kilns, and casts.

We were not allowed entry into the nuclear labs or the nuclear medical facilities.

I exceeded 18,000 steps on the tour, but it was worth it.

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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 31 Jul 2023, 06:02:24

Wow, sounds fascinating. A heaven for folks who like to fiddle with their hands. :-D
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 03 Aug 2023, 20:46:21

The limiting factor for Nuclear power never was public acceptance. It is, and always has been, the availability of cheap Diesel and coal.

...I say glaring, because as a geologist it should have been obvious to him that nuclear power is coming from Uranium, a mineral found in finite quantities, in finite reserves on this finite planet. In other words: the same rise and fall in its extraction is all but guaranteed.

Production starts at the best locations, where the most dense and easy to get forms of Uranium ore can be found. Like the ones in Canada, with 20% U content (a fantastically high concentration for any metal by the way). The issue is: such high grade ores are rare. They are like the golden tip of Khafre’s pyramid. Shiny, easy to work with, but not too much compared to the rest of the reserves.

Imagine that all the Uranium ores ever mined (and yet to be mined) were brought into one location by the Gods. There they would pile it up into a shape of a gigantic pyramid, putting the highest quality ores from Canada, like a cherry, on the top. The next, more voluminous layer in this imaginary pyramid of Uranium resources then would consist of ores with 2% Uranium content (where the rest is mining waste containing less valuable metals in various quantities). As you can see we have much more of these, but still not enough to power the entire planet with. Moving down another layer we would find much much more Uranium albeit locked up in ever lower grade ores containing a mere kilogram of pure Uranium in every ton hauled to the surface (or 0.1%).

Notice how we jump orders of magnitude in density as we move up and down this pyramid: 20% on the top is ten times as dense as a 2% ore, which is twenty times as dense as a 0.1% ore in a row below. At the bottom layers we would find common granite and sedimentary rock containing mere grams of Uranium per ton of ore mined: 3–5 ppm that is (or 0.0003%). Good luck mining, hauling then crashing tons of the hardest of rocks this planet has to offer, only to try and extract a few grams of Uranium out of it.

Long story short: we have only a very little amount of high grade, easy to mine Uranium and billions of tons of low grade, hard to find, hard to extract metal dispersed around the surface of the planet. Just like with every single other material we’ve ever mined.

Now, armed with this knowledge, look at the chart below.

Image

Preposterous as it may sound, our Uranium resources refuse to grow in line with the money we pour on exploration. We are simply unable to grow our good old high quality low cost reserves. What we have found instead is of an ever lower quality type, containing less and less U per ton and costing more and more to extract. Despite a virtual explosion in exploration expenditure (doubling the total amount spent in 12 years between 2005 and 2017) our reserves grew by 60% only —  then flat-lined — indicating a peak in exploration.

Let’s face it: Uranium exploration has hit diminishing returns with current reserves now estimated to be enough for 90 years — not 5000... Spending more on exploration will not give us large quantities of high grade resources in return. What we are left with is ever lower quality and costlier to get ores. It doesn’t matter if the oceans or Earth’s crust contains millions of tons of Uranium in theory. In practice it’s in such a diluted form that it would take more energy to scrub and collect the radioactive metal than the energy we could get out of reactors in the end.

Uranium is mined (still to this day) by using diesel machinery and ever more costlier electricity. Mining lower grades would mean even higher energy consumption as more rocks per unit of Uranium would need to be shoveled and hauled to the surface. While for example a numerical difference between a 1% grade and 0.1% grade is just 0.9% point, it actually requires 10 times the effort (diesel and related machinery) to bring up the ore from the mining pit, then an additional 10–100 times increase in the energy use of the grinding and leaching process. There is nothing to invent here: the work has to be performed and it has a certain energy need dictated by physics and geology...


https://thehonestsorcerer.substack.com/ ... um=reader2
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 10 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 04 Aug 2023, 14:39:10

theluckycountry wrote:The limiting factor for Nuclear power never was public acceptance. It is, and always has been, the availability of cheap Diesel and coal.

...I say glaring, because as a geologist it should have been obvious to him that nuclear power is coming from Uranium, a mineral found in finite quantities, in finite reserves on this finite planet. In other words: the same rise and fall in its extraction is all but guaranteed.

Production starts at the best locations, where the most dense and easy to get forms of Uranium ore can be found. Like the ones in Canada, with 20% U content (a fantastically high concentration for any metal by the way). The issue is: such high grade ores are rare. They are like the golden tip of Khafre’s pyramid. Shiny, easy to work with, but not too much compared to the rest of the reserves.

Imagine that all the Uranium ores ever mined (and yet to be mined) were brought into one location by the Gods. There they would pile it up into a shape of a gigantic pyramid, putting the highest quality ores from Canada, like a cherry, on the top. The next, more voluminous layer in this imaginary pyramid of Uranium resources then would consist of ores with 2% Uranium content (where the rest is mining waste containing less valuable metals in various quantities). As you can see we have much more of these, but still not enough to power the entire planet with. Moving down another layer we would find much much more Uranium albeit locked up in ever lower grade ores containing a mere kilogram of pure Uranium in every ton hauled to the surface (or 0.1%).

Notice how we jump orders of magnitude in density as we move up and down this pyramid: 20% on the top is ten times as dense as a 2% ore, which is twenty times as dense as a 0.1% ore in a row below. At the bottom layers we would find common granite and sedimentary rock containing mere grams of Uranium per ton of ore mined: 3–5 ppm that is (or 0.0003%). Good luck mining, hauling then crashing tons of the hardest of rocks this planet has to offer, only to try and extract a few grams of Uranium out of it.

Long story short: we have only a very little amount of high grade, easy to mine Uranium and billions of tons of low grade, hard to find, hard to extract metal dispersed around the surface of the planet. Just like with every single other material we’ve ever mined.

Now, armed with this knowledge, look at the chart below.

Image

Preposterous as it may sound, our Uranium resources refuse to grow in line with the money we pour on exploration. We are simply unable to grow our good old high quality low cost reserves. What we have found instead is of an ever lower quality type, containing less and less U per ton and costing more and more to extract. Despite a virtual explosion in exploration expenditure (doubling the total amount spent in 12 years between 2005 and 2017) our reserves grew by 60% only —  then flat-lined — indicating a peak in exploration.

Let’s face it: Uranium exploration has hit diminishing returns with current reserves now estimated to be enough for 90 years — not 5000... Spending more on exploration will not give us large quantities of high grade resources in return. What we are left with is ever lower quality and costlier to get ores. It doesn’t matter if the oceans or Earth’s crust contains millions of tons of Uranium in theory. In practice it’s in such a diluted form that it would take more energy to scrub and collect the radioactive metal than the energy we could get out of reactors in the end.

Uranium is mined (still to this day) by using diesel machinery and ever more costlier electricity. Mining lower grades would mean even higher energy consumption as more rocks per unit of Uranium would need to be shoveled and hauled to the surface. While for example a numerical difference between a 1% grade and 0.1% grade is just 0.9% point, it actually requires 10 times the effort (diesel and related machinery) to bring up the ore from the mining pit, then an additional 10–100 times increase in the energy use of the grinding and leaching process. There is nothing to invent here: the work has to be performed and it has a certain energy need dictated by physics and geology...


https://thehonestsorcerer.substack.com/ ... um=reader2


I firmly disagree with this viewpoint. When Nuclear came in with Gen I prototype stations it was more expensive than fossil fuels, but the first few Gen II plants came in with as cheap or cheaper than coal electricity. Then the Lobbyists got to work and the avalanche of new "Safety measures" started getting passed and they made sure not to grandfather in existing plans when they passed them as is the normal procedure for fossil power stations. This meant a whole slew of mid construction changes had to be made to Gen II plants built after the first few years and this caused significant construction delays as already built sections often had to be torn back out and rebuilt slightly differently. At the same time groups like the Petroleum Energy Institute and other fossil fuel groups started quite openly funding anti-nuclear campaigns by Greenpeace, the Sierra Club and other more radical environmentalist groups.
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