[KaiserJeep]

That "major city" just might be NYC, USA. Then the Little Fat Man with the oh-so-limited lifespan has time to claim victory before being snuffed.

Nor will "everything in the inventory" be used. We need it in other places like several Middle Eastern countries.

The MAD doctrine works fine with reasonable people on both sides. The Soviets, for all their bluster, were reasonable people. Reflect for one moment the deterrent power of the MAD doctrine when the other guy is actually a mad egomaniac.

[onlooker]

Okay, let us analyze this more in depth. So given that he does seem to be something like a mad egomaniac, one can stroke the ego of said person and surprisingly be well rewarded by that persons actions. Or maybe I am totally crazy to think that, I don't know. Second, what Cog said is very revealing. He said no good MILITARY options. Well, what about assassination. Again, I agree that his allegiance is based on fear, that allegiance can be unstable. I understand that N.Korea is one of the most shut in, secret and paranoid countries in the world reflecting its leader. Obviously, a drone attack would be understook as involving the US. So, what about betrayal within his inner circle. Surely, a way must exist to communicate with certain high ranking people there to try and get them to turn against their "beloved" leader. And then it is just a matter of providing a lucrative and beneficial outcome for said traitor and certain assurances of his/her well being and that of his/her family. Here is where China can be of immense help.

[Newfie]

That's why this is China's baby to resolve.

The USA, or Western world, have no good options.

And those options are pretty bad for China as well.

It is a new kind of MAD, economic MAD.

China needs the USA and globalization as much as we need it and them. When China sees NK as a credible threat to globalization they will act.

Clearly they know a NK strike will meet heavy retaliation. The question is how China decision makers evaluate this risk. Trumps job is to get them to see the NK risk in a similar fashion as we do. But this is a typical negotiation problem.

All said I think everyone agrees that Trump was left a turd by ALL previous administrations. I think this crisis will show his mettle. As always, we shall see.

[Plantagenet]

Communist ideology teaches that socialism is so superior to other economic systems that Communists have the duty to impose socialism by any means necessary.

Rather then being crazy, Kim is simply acting in a way consistent with his beliefs. He thinks his best chance to expand socialism and reunite the Korean Peninsula is to have nuclear weapons. He thinks he can drive the Americans out of South Korea and then unite with the south if he has nuclear weapons.

You have to listen to what the other side says to understand them. You can't just dismiss them as crazy.

Cheers!


Kim's goal is to drive the US out of South Korea and then unite all of Korea under communist rule. Its really no different then the North Vietnamese, whose goal was to drive the French---and then the Americans---out of South Vietnam in order to unite their entire country under communist rule.

[onlooker]

Well then, the questions begs, is that also China's goal. China is quasi capitalism in economics but still Communist in political structure.

[ralfy]

I'm not sure just what you are getting at there. After the fall of South Vietnam which was indeed a victory for the Communist forces both Chinese and Russian (or was one more dominate then the other?) there seems to be little intervention by China or anybody else in South East Asia that I am aware of. What have I forgotten or missed entirely?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spratly_Islands_dispute

China started intervening during the late 1980s. There was hardly any response from the U.S. even with the presence of Clark and Subic. Instead, it started furthering trade with both China and Vietnam, and even provided military support to the latter.

Later:

"China says it's ready if US 'stirs up any conflict' in South China Sea"

China's attempts to claim a nearly 1.4-million-square-mile swathe of open ocean are without precedent and probably without legal merit, but Beijing continues to assert its right to the economically critical zone — and increasingly puts its claims in military terms.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/19/china-s ... a-sea.html

[Cog]

There is some chatter that things are getting more serious in the preparation for war with North Korea. Nothing I would call definitive, just chatter.

[vtsnowedin]

There is some chatter that things are getting more serious in the preparation for war with North Korea. Nothing I would call definitive, just chatter.

Yes I saw one story about them putting B-52s back on 24 hour readiness. Posturing and photo op for the North Korean's benefit I think as just one nuclear sub patrolling in range is more then enough to take out the entire country and several are always in range but a picture of open ocean with a sub out there submerged somewhere close doesn't convey the message.

[Cog]

Putting nuclear bombs back on B-52's and parking them at the end of the runway for ready take-off is something we haven't done since the Cold war ended. I do not believe the message being sent here is towards North Korea alone, but to Russia and China to not interfere in whatever we are planning to do.

[vtsnowedin]

Putting nuclear bombs back on B-52's and parking them at the end of the runway for ready take-off is something we haven't done since the Cold war ended. I do not believe the message being sent here is towards North Korea alone, but to Russia and China to not interfere in whatever we are planning to do.

o
I don't think we are planning to do anything unless Kim dose something stupid
like launch an armed missile at us.

[Cog]

Putting nuclear bombs back on B-52's and parking them at the end of the runway for ready take-off is something we haven't done since the Cold war ended. I do not believe the message being sent here is towards North Korea alone, but to Russia and China to not interfere in whatever we are planning to do.

o
I don't think we are planning to do anything unless Kim dose something stupid
like launch an armed missile at us.

Perhaps. But there are certain military preparations that take long lead times to accomplish, like having B-52 bombers armed with nukes on the ready line, if you are planning something preemptively. Not that we would strike NK with nukes but to send a message to China and Russia not to interfere. I think I also saw that Canada was sending a submarine to the area and the UK was accelerating their readiness of an aircraft carrier. Perhaps unrelated to NK but part of the chatter.

[Plantagenet]

CNN here in Asia is reporting that Kim had huge construction projects going in Africa to fund his nukes program. Trump is apparently shutting these down now, but during the Obama years the antiNK sanctions enforcement was a total joke

Don’t know if this is being reported in USA

Cheers

[vtsnowedin]

Putting nuclear bombs back on B-52's and parking them at the end of the runway for ready take-off is something we haven't done since the Cold war ended. I do not believe the message being sent here is towards North Korea alone, but to Russia and China to not interfere in whatever we are planning to do.

o
I don't think we are planning to do anything unless Kim dose something stupid
like launch an armed missile at us.

Perhaps. But there are certain military preparations that take long lead times to accomplish, like having B-52 bombers armed with nukes on the ready line, if you are planning something preemptively. Not that we would strike NK with nukes but to send a message to China and Russia not to interfere. I think I also saw that Canada was sending a submarine to the area and the UK was accelerating their readiness of an aircraft carrier. Perhaps unrelated to NK but part of the chatter.

Canada has no missile armed submarines. Our Trident armed submarines are in range of all of North Korea while tied up to the dock in Pearl Harbor or cruising into Seattle for that matter. (7000 mile range or 11,300KM).

[Cog]

Canada does have attack submarines with torpedoes though. Diesel-electric submarines can be very stealthy. Another piece of the puzzle.

[vtsnowedin]

Canada does have attack submarines with torpedoes though. Diesel-electric submarines can be very stealthy. Another piece of the puzzle.

True enough but what is a conventional torpedoes maximum range? (31 miles) and the 650 pound warhead is good for one ship or submarine each.
The true usefulness of the diesel electric sub is probably slipping spies or Seal teams ashore undetected.

[Tanada]

Canada does have attack submarines with torpedoes though. Diesel-electric submarines can be very stealthy. Another piece of the puzzle.

True enough but what is a conventional torpedoes maximum range? (31 miles) and the 650 pound warhead is good for one ship or submarine each.
The true usefulness of the diesel electric sub is probably slipping spies or Seal teams ashore undetected.

Never forget the USN long ago developed the capability of launching Tomahawk cruise missiles from those same standard size torpedo tubes used on all NATO submarine classes. Canada can easily deploy submarine launched cruise missiles any time they wish to do so simply by exchanging some of the torpedo inventory for missile inventory. Those submarine launched Tomahawk missiles come in both anti-ship and land attack versions.

[vtsnowedin]

Canada does have attack submarines with torpedoes though. Diesel-electric submarines can be very stealthy. Another piece of the puzzle.

True enough but what is a conventional torpedoes maximum range? (31 miles) and the 650 pound warhead is good for one ship or submarine each.
The true usefulness of the diesel electric sub is probably slipping spies or Seal teams ashore undetected.

Never forget the USN long ago developed the capability of launching Tomahawk cruise missiles from those same standard size torpedo tubes used on all NATO submarine classes. Canada can easily deploy submarine launched cruise missiles any time they wish to do so simply by exchanging some of the torpedo inventory for missile inventory. Those submarine launched Tomahawk missiles come in both anti-ship and land attack versions.

My reading of it (not an exhaustive search) says that when the Canadians bought their current four Diesel electric subs from the UK they had the cruse missile capability removed during the retrofit before they went into Canadian service. Might still have it as an ace up their sleeve but publicly its torpedoes only.

[Plantagenet]

Japan’s election results are being touted as s mandate to repeal Japan’s Pacifist constitution imposed by the US after WWII. Japan is pledging to join with Trump and the USA to get tough with North Korea as soon as their constitution is changed

Cheers!

[Cog]

Another chess piece has been moved. The USS Nimitz aircraft carrier group has joined the USS Ronald Reagan and USS Theodore Roosevelt carrier groups in the western Pacific. Having the ability to conduct 24/7 air cap and bombing missions is a nice edge to have.


https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world- ... reat-ICBMs

[Newfie]

So any comments or thoughts on Trumps up coming NK summit?