[radon]

Organized chaos is an oxymoron.

Overlook on my part - he actually said "controlled chaos". Probably also a kind of oxymoron.

Sometimes we do regime change, and the countries are always better off for it -- the Germans are better off now, so are the Japanese with the constitution we wrote for them, and in the long run I think Iraqis will be better off too.

After the US won the cold war, the entire formal framework of the post-Soviet Russia was modeled on the US and Western Europe, including the constitution, the federal laws, the system of the distribution of power, tax/financial/private property arrangements, and so on. Volumes of the relevant regulations were literally written by the western consultants and implemented under their guidance. Twenty years on, the place is still a mess, even by your standards presumably. Same with Ukraine. Both are incredibly rich countries, potentially.

Maybe, it is the hard-working people of Japan and Germany who should primarily take the credit for their post-war success, rather than those who drafted regulations for them?

The fact that you don't makes your anti-Americanism sound a lot like what comes out of Russia -- self-interested propaganda.

How innovative and refreshing. Rally support of your overseas kinsmen by attribution to the alien Evil Russia.

I am not saying that you are wrong otherwise, but please spare Russia and appeal to the logic or affiliation rather than the fear of the Russian bogeyman. Russia is not anti-American, btw.

If anything counts as propoganda, please do challenge it - otherwise it is not better than plain name calling like "doomer", "shill" etc.

[Pretorian]

You know I'm not really in agreement with US policies, but I've noticed that there is a tendency among foreign posters to do the following...

Step 1: Self-righteously point at what the US is doing and turn up their noses.

Step 2: Completely ignore the stuff their governments do.

that is exactly what American posters are doing ( more so on other websites though), so there is no need to discriminate.

[Oneaboveall]

that is exactly what American posters are doing ( more so on other websites though), so there is no need to discriminate.

I admit that, but some people are so smugly self rightous about it, that I want to scream!

[rangerone314]

If people like Osama didn't have Iraq or Palestine to hate us for, they would simply shift to other reasons.

Point of fact, the US would be a major roadblock in the establishment of an aggressive, conquest-driven world-wide caliphate.

Did all the countries that the Muslims invaded from Mohammed and Abu Bakr onward, provide the Muslims with valid reasons for hating them? Egypt, the Levant, the Persians, the Byzantines, Spain, Sicily, Greece?

You can criticize Western imperialism starting with the Spanish conquistadors, but they are merely comparable to Genghis Khan's Mongol hordes or the Islamic expansion, neither of which came from Western civilization.

I'd note the Mongol horde threat is long since gone, but the Islamic expansionist threat could still constitute a grave threat in the future.

[DomusAlbion]

Did all the countries that the Muslims invaded from Mohammed and Abu Bakr onward, provide the Muslims with valid reasons for hating them? Egypt, the Levant, the Persians, the Byzantines, Spain, Sicily, Greece?

Don't forget France. If it had not been for France's Charles Martel, ("Charles the Hammer") the Islamic imperialists would have spread their power through all of Western Europe and not just Spain.

[rangerone314]

Did all the countries that the Muslims invaded from Mohammed and Abu Bakr onward, provide the Muslims with valid reasons for hating them? Egypt, the Levant, the Persians, the Byzantines, Spain, Sicily, Greece?

Don't forget France. If it had not been for France's Charles Martel, ("Charles the Hammer") the Islamic imperialists would have spread their power through all of Western Europe and not just Spain.

Oh, I was listing the areas that were pretty much fully conquered at one time or another. I DEFINITELY have not forgotten Charles Martel... he ranks as one of my 10 greatest military commanders historically... with Hannibal, Alexander, George Kastrioti Skanderbeg, von Manstein, etc.

[Sixstrings]

Did all the countries that the Muslims invaded from Mohammed and Abu Bakr onward, provide the Muslims with valid reasons for hating them? Egypt, the Levant, the Persians, the Byzantines, Spain, Sicily, Greece?

Don't forget France. If it had not been for France's Charles Martel, ("Charles the Hammer") the Islamic imperialists would have spread their power through all of Western Europe and not just Spain.

Exactly. Some people bash the US as if without us this it would be a perfect world of rainbows, skittles and moonbeams.

Fact is, the history of mankind is a history of CONSTANT WARFARE. An unbroken chain of resource / territorial / religious wars, century after century. I think I'm starting to understand ardent anti-Americanism -- these people don't have a full understanding of history. For example, it's childish to criticize the Mexican-American War.

It just indicates the person doesn't understand history, that at the time Mexico was a basket case (even more than now) and there was no way it could have held on to western North America. If we hadn't maneuvered to get it, the British Empire or the Russians would have taken it. And then we would have wound up having to fight the Brits again the next time they started pushing us around, and if they held the West we probably would have lost another war with them.

[Novus]

I probably wont win any friends here with what I'm posting.

Actually what you wrote was pretty close to what I believe. But then again I closely understand the History of the Anglo-English-American mindset. Recently I reviewed some essays on Guy Fawkes. Some say he was the world's first terrorist who plotted to bomb the King of England while others say he was a freedom fighter. But really he was a product of his times just as Bin Laden was a product of our times. History repeats itself. If we want to change the course of history we need to change ourselves first.

[Keith_McClary]

Listening to these guys, you would hardly know that US puppet dictators in the Muslim world are falling like dominoes.
EDIT - This just popped up:Gulf bloc to consider Jordan, Morocco membership

RIYADH - The Gulf Co-operation Council (GCC) will consider requests by Morocco and Jordan to join its Gulf Arab political bloc, the group's secretary general said on Tuesday, a move seen aimed at countering regional unrest.
...
"I suppose it's going to be a club of kings . . . They are trying to shore up royalty in the region. No one wants to see the first domino go down," said David Roberts, deputy director of the Royal United Services Institute in Doha.

Gulf states — such as Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait — sent troops to Bahrain to help its monarchy which faced widespread protests urging democratic reform.

Gulf ambitions to contain the threat of regional unrest may have grown after their success in that Gulf island kingdom.

Gulf states remain concerned their Western allies could abandon them and back reforms if protests reach a critical mass, as they did when uprisings toppled Egypt and Tunisia's leaders.

"The GCC is increasing its more muscular role in foreign policy . . . They are leading the counter revolution

So will the "Western allies" abandon the guys in white bathrobes above, or these guys:

[Sixstrings]

So before you read the rest understand that I am not anti USA as there are so many fine US citizens that I would be very happy to call my friends. But as of the last 40 or so years, your government as well as mine (Australia) has done some truly despicably terrible things.

Last 40 years.. so you're including the entire Cold War period there? You do realize that Soviet ICBMs were targeted at your cities, and if by some quirk of accident a nuke exchange breaks out with Russia then they WILL launch on you even now.

I'm mostly lefty myself, but the radical Leftist thing I see coming out of Australia lately is getting to be a bit much. You guys are managing to out-French the French. What would you rather we have done during the Cold War, just lay down to the Soviets? Let them have free reign to install their puppet governments?

If you think fighting the Cold War was wrong, then I don't even know what to say to that.

Us Aussies were in all of this with our friends the USA and Britain. And most of our populations believed what our governments told us ... about the WMD's that Saddam Hussain was hiding.

At the time, I knew the WMD thing was BS. It was obvious. But after 9/11, the Western allies decided to get a bit tougher and wrap up the loose end in Iraq. At the very least, temper some of your anti-US criticism to include the entire alliance -- which includes YOUR country too.

During all of this time according to Amnesty International in excess of 500,000 Iraqi children beneath the age of 5yo died due to water bourne disesae & viruses. The USA, Britain, Australia & our other allies, we are all responsible at least in part for this.

I agree it's unfortunate the average American isn't aware of just how many civilian deaths there were in Iraq.. around 650,000 from what I've read. This should have been reported on more.. we need to know the real cost of war.

However.. keep in mind that Saddam Hussein had already once invaded and annexed a neighbor. In our modern world, that's just not acceptable. We did the sanctions thing for years on end, and as you rightly point out the sanctions were no good solution. So ultimately what you're arguing against here is that the Western allies have been playing world cop since the end of the Cold War. Fair enough.. although if we just give up then the world becomes a more dangerous place after it becomes okay again for nations to invade and annex each other.

Are more than 500,000 innocent children's lives worth Saddam Hussain's conviction?

The West made the right decision at the time. The sanctions couldn't just continue forever, and 9/11 upped the stakes for geopolitics. No more messin' around, Saddam had to go.

If you saw the whole of the Osama Bin Laden tapes after 9/11 2001 you would have known that this fact alone was a huge force driving him. But in fact they didn't show the whole tapes in our media, only the parts that vested interests wanted us to see, you had to view on Al-Jazeera to see the whole video.

Well, yeah, that's the nature of warfare.. it goes on and on, back and forth, generation after generation until one side finally wins. The West won the Cold War, but now the future is unclear.. will we be fighting the BRICS one day? Will Australia leave the Commonwealth, renounce its knighthoods and titles to hook up with Russia and China? Who knows. Whatever happens, you guys will have to pick a side and stick with it.

[Novus]

Fact is, the history of mankind is a history of CONSTANT WARFARE. An unbroken chain of resource / territorial / religious wars, century after century. I think I'm starting to understand ardent anti-Americanism -- these people don't have a full understanding of history. For example, it's childish to criticize the Mexican-American War.

I am glad you agree history is an unbroken chain of resource / territorial / religious wars, century after century. America is not an exception to this rule. Our shit stinks just as much as every other empire's. Along with that we have to accept that our Imperialism will create terrorist / freedom fighters as well as boat loads of animosity from the rest of the world.

[Pretorian]

During all of this time according to Amnesty International in excess of 500,000 Iraqi children beneath the age of 5yo died due to water bourne disesae & viruses.

During all this time population of Iraq more than doubled. Questions?

When asked on US television about the more than 500,000 child deaths Madeline Albrite stated that "this was worth achieving our objective"

Madeline Albrite bombed the very family that were hiding her kosher ass from Nazies, despite of a public appeal from her childhood friend ( whose parents were risking their lives for hiding her kosher ass). You expected something different from her? At least she didnt lie.

[Sixstrings]

Madeline Albrite bombed the very family that were hiding her kosher ass from Nazies, despite of a public appeal from her childhood friend ( whose parents were risking their lives for hiding her kosher ass). You expected something different from her? At least she didnt lie.

Interesting story about Albrite.. she once told Colin Powell "what's the point of having a superb military if we never use it?"

Funny thing about women in politics is how hawkish they are.. from what I've read, this Libya thing is all Hillary Clinton and Susan Rice's doing, they pushed Obama into approving it.

[rangerone314]

Madeline Albrite bombed the very family that were hiding her kosher ass from Nazies, despite of a public appeal from her childhood friend ( whose parents were risking their lives for hiding her kosher ass). You expected something different from her? At least she didnt lie.

Interesting story about Albrite.. she once told Colin Powell "what's the point of having a superb military if we never use it?"

Funny thing about women in politics is how hawkish they are.. from what I've read, this Libya thing is all Hillary Clinton and Susan Rice's doing, they pushed Obama into approving it.

Penis envy.

[Sixstrings]

What they need to do however is to disclose all the evidence gathered so it is plain this was not just a political execution, but the justice they claim was due. Some sort of hearing for the facts and actions of Bin Laden in a public forum, to given him a post-death trial is the only thing that will vindicate this action.

The fact that OBL did 9/11 is a sacred truth, like the facts about the Holocaust. There is not much chance of a credible hearing or any academic historical research on either.

Oh man, I totally agree. Bravo! Well put.

At some point suggesting there is no evidence for OBL causing 911 and that he was murdered for being a mere vocal supporter of anti-American action will result in job loss, fines, divorce, jail time, academic isolation or worse.

Yikes is everyone on this forum a holocaust denier, even Pops?

The fact that OBL did 9/11 is a sacred truth, like the facts about the Holocaust. There is not much chance of a credible hearing or any academic historical research on either.

I just shake my head when I read this stuff, it's the perfect example of why I was a doomer before I ever heard of peak oil.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here with eastbay and Pops, I like you both hopefully we can disagree in a friendly way.

I'm not a 9/11 truther.. the real truth is almost as bad though.. OBL was originally our man in Afghanistan fighting the Soviets, it's we who built all these terrorists up to fight the Russians. Just as Saddam Hussein was our man before he wasn't. We built him up to counter Iran.. and Iran was our puppet state too, before it wasn't.. and on and on it goes.

But the Holocaust.. come on guys, that was real. I just watched a PBS documentary the other night on the making of the Nazi propaganda films in Poland. We're not even talking about the camps here.. just the ghettos was a horrible crime against humanity. It was a hard program to watch.. I guess the holocaust deniers think all the footage was faked? The starving people that look like skeletons, the dead bodies in the streets and the mass graves, what do you think that was CGI graphics back in 1940?

Ironically, all this propaganda film ultimately served to document their own crimes.

EDIT: Here's a link to the PBS program..

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/film-unfinished/

[Sixstrings]

The US is Rome, extended. The Mexicans are the new slaves, the corporate fatcats are the new landowning rich, the Senate is powerless yet again, and the assassination of the Emperor (soon too come) (not that I'm advocating that or anything, just watching history rhyme with itself) with ever increasing frequency until the term of Emperor or Caesar lasts but a few days for the right patsy.

Yeah there are some eerie parallels here. Increasing power pooling in the executive, the Senate becoming ever weaker. Heck, Washington even looks like a Roman city:



Thank goodness Obama didn't want a Triumph though, parading OBL through the streets like the king of the gauls.

You have to wonder though whether one day we'll have our own Rubicon.. will it come after a national emergency, martial law declared and then that's it the Republic is dead?

On the bright side, the first emperor (Octavian) ushered in the two century long Pax Romana. And then after that on the whole there were more good emperors than bad.. the Empire lasted a very long time.

[Novus]

You have to wonder though whether one day we'll have our own Rubicon.. will it come after a national emergency, martial law declared and then that's it the Republic is dead?

America already crossed the river Rubicon long ago. Michael Ruppert wrote a whole book about it.

[oowolf]

Death is what we do best; remember, we're killing the whole planet. Wetiko psychosis.
"Man has lost the capacity to foresee and to forestall. He will end by destroying the earth." Albert Schweitzer (1875-1965) Truer words were never spoken.

[rangerone314]

That's why I like that line from Avatar by "Mo'at" : And we will see if your insanity can be cured, Jake Soooly.

That's what I feel like human civilization is: insanity.

[Revi]

I think Chomsky is a part of the side show. The main event was Bin Laden. His death may mean we can start to get out of Afghanistan, the graveyard of empires. That would be a great thing. We'll see. We may end up there until 2014. Maybe it's part of a great game that we can't understand, but it seems like a losing proposition to me. I was happy to hear about Bin Laden's death, in a sort of frontier justice kind of a way. Chomsky has to play the academic, exposing the empire for what it is. Anyone who has spent any time outside of the empire knows that we kill lots of innocent people. Those safely within the womb of empire don't have any idea where their standard of living comes from. They keep driving around in big cars and taking plane trips though, whatever their political views are.