[threadbear]

This seems to be a circuitous route to a generalized harmonization of the global economy, with particular emphasis on the natural resource sector. Are New Zealand and Australia also being considered?

[Nickel]

This is where they are getting the North American Union idea;
http://www.spp-psp.gc.ca/menu-en.aspx,
which is alive and well, if off the radar, and supported by both the Liberals and Conservatives.

According to the site:

Launched in March 2005, the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP) is an ongoing dialogue that seeks to address common challenges, strengthen security and enhance the quality of life for the citizens of Canada, the United States, and Mexico.

That's your "North American Union"? "An ongoing dialogue"? I'd consider a "union" as including a common political assembly of some kind, a common currency, freedom of movement across the frontier... you had me worried there for a second.

Quite frankly this has little to do with Canada, with regards to the EU it is the only entry to the US.

Quite frankly, this has nothing to do with the United States. The agreement won't move skilled labourer one from Cedar Rapids to Bratislava or vice-versa, or move a single peanut from Jimmy Carter's plantation to a waiting mouth in Piccadilly Square un-tariffed. Anything that does move back and forth via Canada is going to be marked up by some middleman.

The EU has admitted that it would be impossible to get the same agreement with the US.

Yeah, if it were about trading with the United States, it would be about trading with the United States. There's plenty of trade between the US and EU right now, but they both have their backs up about their various protected industries, and that's that. What's impossible between them isn't impossible between us -- or at least, so the potential seems.

All that aside, in this age of Peak Oil, where we should be shortening our supply lines and re-localizing manufacturing

Do you honestly believe we're not all better off having billions of potential customers instead of just a few million? Sorry, I don't.

[Nickel]

Personally, I'm waiting for the day Britian and Austrailia are invited to join the NAU.

I'm waiting for the day CANADA gets asked to join some NAU. I believe the last time was in the eleventh of the Articles of Confederation, but that offer lapsed in, what, 1789?

[Denny]

Here's how it will work out:

1) Canada enters this agreement with the EU. For Canada, it's a good way to tell the people that they are now doing business with "someone who pays their bills". This will play well in Ontario. For the EU, it's a good way to access American markets without actually dealing with America.

2) America annexes Canada. We all know it's coming - it's the only way America will ever be able even hope to address it's international obligations.

Personally, I'm waiting for the day Britian and Austrailia are invited to join the NAU. Who knows, maybe they can form one big country. Of course, they will need a clever name for it...something like "Oceania"...

What? I aodn't think theere is much hope risht now that many Canadians want to snuggle any closer to ouor southern neighbours than we already have.

Some years go, maybe. But, we have been through a lot of toil to get our books in order, and the last thing most Canadians want to share in is a huge government debt, and growing. I think many Canadian feel that the U.S.A. is actually deteriorating before our eyes right now, not improving. Who knows, myabe 10 years down the road, it wil be a more attractive prospect, but right now the U.S.A. looks like a rough marriage prospect, one with an addiction to gambling and fighting.

And, what aobut all the trickier aspects of the Canadian reality, like bilingualism, metric system, socialized health care and all that, it would seemingly be hard to see Canada as an associated commonwealth or the like, as Puerto Rico is, and keep all that.

Or, twisted dreamer, are you saying that Canada would just be taken by force? Wouldn't that be a public relations nightmare for the U.S.A.! It would resemble the tactiocs of the Soviet Union of old, or as as it came to be known by a poopular president, the "Evil Empire".

Lastly, does the U.S.A. really want to have 6 million new French speaking citizens?

[Dreamtwister]

Or, twisted dreamer, are you saying that Canada would just be taken by force? Wouldn't that be a public relations nightmare for the U.S.A.! It would resemble the tactiocs of the Soviet Union of old, or as as it came to be known by a poopular president, the "Evil Empire".

That's exactly what I'm saying. Let's face it, America isn't exactly preoccupied with "public relations" any more.

[threadbear]

Or, twisted dreamer, are you saying that Canada would just be taken by force? Wouldn't that be a public relations nightmare for the U.S.A.! It would resemble the tactiocs of the Soviet Union of old, or as as it came to be known by a poopular president, the "Evil Empire".

That's exactly what I'm saying. Let's face it, America isn't exactly preoccupied with "public relations" any more.

So you are saying that Canada may become like the Middle East, in terms of natural resources, like oil? I would think the ones to fear, in that case, as much as the US, in terms of reaction, would be the Chinese.

[Nickel]

Or, twisted dreamer, are you saying that Canada would just be taken by force? Wouldn't that be a public relations nightmare for the U.S.A.! It would resemble the tactiocs of the Soviet Union of old, or as as it came to be known by a poopular president, the "Evil Empire".

That's exactly what I'm saying. Let's face it, America isn't exactly preoccupied with "public relations" any more.

We're not Iraq, either.

[jbrovont]

Ah yes - Canada is being seduced by the sweet smelling crack pipe of globalization.

Allow me to direct your attention to the south for a moment. See how well that worked for us?

[threadbear]

Ah yes - Canada is being seduced by the sweet smelling crack pipe of globalization.

Allow me to direct your attention to the south for a moment. See how well that worked for us?

But we have natural resources up the wazoo. Globalization only helped your power elite in the FIRE economy, while it sent good jobs overseas.

Canada is a net beneficiary of any coordinated approach that helps sell our products, AND it creates jobs.

The worry would be all barriers to immigration from Europe, lifted. Liberalization would be great, but the "cultural mosaic" paradigm that extends a welcoming hand to all,(as long as they have loads of money) without really thorough background checks, is a corrupting force.

[Nickel]

Ah yes - Canada is being seduced by the sweet smelling crack pipe of globalization.

Allow me to direct your attention to the south for a moment. See how well that worked for us?

How well it worked for YOU? Who do you think WE lost tons of our branch plants to in the late 80s after the FTA was signed? Anyone else here remember when most of the Northern Telecom jobs left Bramalea for (union-busting) Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina? What saved us in the long run were a competitive dollar and lower benefits costs because we have a universal health care system.

Well, the Canadian dollar is STILL worth a lot less than the euro, and the universal health care thing vis-a-vis the EU is a level playing field. Shouldn't be a major disruption. We're talking about lowering the barriers to each other's products. They'll be winners and losers on both sides, but an enhanced ability to match up strengths and weaknesses. But most important, it opens the door, at long last, to lessening Canada's dependence on US spending.

[Dreamtwister]

But most important, it opens the door, at long last, to lessening Canada's dependence on US spending.

Which is great.

Unfortunately, countries who refuse to accept US [s]dollars[/s] toilet paper find themselves "liberated" in short order.

[Nickel]

But most important, it opens the door, at long last, to lessening Canada's dependence on US spending.

Which is great.

Unfortunately, countries who refuse to accept US [s]dollars[/s] toilet paper find themselves "liberated" in short order.

What are you going to use to pay for this "liberation", exactly? I read an article not long ago, by former Assistant Secretary of the Treasure Paul Craig Roberts, I believe, in which he foresees a collapse so sudden that the US will not be able to afford to bring its troops home from the various 700-odd bases around the world without a little help from its friends.

[deMolay]

Globalization is bankrupting all local economies. If it keeps up people will struggle to feed themselves. Globalization is the goal of the huge corporations. The complete homogenization of mankind. Jump for the carrot faster or we will move our jobs to another cheaper jurisdiction. I can't see it working with Peak Oil anymore. I hope it's time is past. If anything Canada should look at getting out of NATO completely.

[Nickel]

If anything Canada should look at getting out of NATO completely.

I don't think we should have NATO anymore, period. We should have disassembled it when the Cold War ended, and then sat down and put together a different security organization with a different mandate, and one that preferably would have included the Russians. But too late for that now. So I agree. We should be out of NATO. Canada has no interests in being a member of an organization that gives itself carte blanche to invade other countries, and one that seems hell-bent on antagonizing the Russians at any cost.

[Tyler_JC]

Why is everyone ganging up on Nickel and disrupting the conversation with conspiracy stuff?

This thread is about a Canada/EU trade agreement.

I personally think it's a smart move for both Canada and the EU. Free trade between equal partners is a good thing.

This will give Europe better access to Canadian resources and allow Canada to reduce its dependency on the US market.

Seems like a win/win.

[Dreamtwister]

Why is everyone ganging up on Nickel and disrupting the conversation with conspiracy stuff?

I can't speak for everyone else, but I am not ganging up on Nickel.

I personally think it's a smart move for both Canada and the EU. Free trade between equal partners is a good thing.

This will give Europe better access to Canadian resources and allow Canada to reduce its dependency on the US market.

Seems like a win/win.

I completely agree with that. The disagreement here, is in our estimation of America's willingness and capability to interfere with it. I believe they can and will interfere, Nickel does not. Sounds like a minor difference of opinion to me.

[Nickel]

The disagreement here, is in our estimation of America's willingness and capability to interfere with it. I believe they can and will interfere, Nickel does not.

We're a sovereign nation; we trade with Cuba. Consider that when trying to imagine why our trading with Europe would be an issue for the US, and even if it were, what measures they could take to interfere with it.

In truth, I don't think the US would oppose it because it opens a sort of back door channel to increasing trade through Canada without the US having to actually comply with or agree to EU standards. They could maintain their "independence" while letting someone else do work for them.

[Maddog78]

Sovereign nation OK, but the US has taken steps to punish Canadian cos. that do business with Cuba.

The U.S. Treasury Department acted on its earlier threats to blacklist Alberta-based nickel mining, refining and marketing ventures that are jointly owned by Sherritt and Cuba's General Nickel Co. S.A. The trade action makes it illegal for that venture to do business with American firms; Sherritt's other divisions are free to do business in the United States. Sherritt received advance word that those sanctions were coming as part of an ongoing U.S. effort to drive Castro from office - and to placate the powerful lobby of expatriate Cubans living in the United States.

I also believe the Sherrit board of dir. was banned from even entering the US. Don't know if that is still in efffect.

Doesn't relate to this trade pact though, I just though I'd point that out since Cuba was mentioned in case some US members found it interesting.

[gampy]

I think it will have a beneficial effect in that it will help diversify Canadian exports. The US is still our largest trading partner, but if things go south in the south (pardon the pun) it will help ameliorate the effect on Canada.

One aspect that interests me is this:

Energy exports. Does Europe hope to get some of that sludge they call tar sands?

Many European service industries (financial, software, etc.) would like a piece of Canada's government contracts. Apparently, the provinces are not too keen on this. For good reason. All that Canadian taxpayer money going to the pockets of Euro companies.

Plus we can't call cheddar cheese Cheddar anymore, it seems.

I imagine there would be many downsides to thje agreement that are not obvious yet. NAFTA has more than a few sore spots.

But overall, I would like to see more harmonization and co-operation with the EU, than the US. Their environmental, and labour standards are better, and their societies are a little more akin to Canada's. A better mix of capitalism, and socialism.
A healthier mix, imho.

I am thinking that the big 5 banks are just salivating at the thought of more open EURO markets. The US is a dead horse so to speak, when discussing financial services industries.

[Nickel]

Sovereign nation OK, but the US has taken steps to punish Canadian cos. that do business with Cuba.

More to the point, we're still doing business with Cuba. It's going to be a little hard on the US if they start "punishing" every company here that does business with the European Union. After all, some of them have oil.

I also believe the Sherrit board of dir. was banned from even entering the US. Don't know if that is still in efffect.

Yeah, someone should tell Delphis his "North American Union" is just around the corner... no significant differences between the parties involved, clearly.