Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE NAFTA Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Canada's ferocious NAFTA growl

Unread postby shortonoil » Sun 02 Mar 2008, 23:21:35

FairMaiden said:

Contrary to what anyone says "capitalism" does not exist...anymore than real socialism every did. Like socialism gave power to a small few administrators (instead of the people) - capitalism gives power to a small few corporations. If they make profit, they become rich off our backs. If they don't make profit, they get bailed out by the gov't and get rich off our backs.


Cheer up - this pseudo capitalism, oligarchy, plutocracy, or what ever you want to call it, may not survive the year. When $700 trillion in derivatives implode, it will be a new reality.

Although, you may like the new reality less than you did the old one!
User avatar
shortonoil
False ETP Prophet
False ETP Prophet
 
Posts: 7132
Joined: Thu 02 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: VA USA

Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby Cashmere » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 11:51:47

LINKY

In short, the article sums up what NAFTA was really about . . . Ensuring that Canada will be forced to sell the U.S. it's FFs. If Canada decides to "Unilaterally Withdraw", as Heinberg put it, then I have no doubt that that will be viewed as a declaration of war. Instead, Canada will be bled dry.

As stupid as American politicians can be, you've got to hand it to them on this one - we're going to end up raping Canada and we have their permission to do it on paper. Here's a great quote from the article . . .
Canada entered the Canada-U.S. free-trade agreement and NAFTA 15 or 20 years ago under very different circumstances. Then, it was widely believed that the world had plenty of cheap oil, and there were no limits to ever-increasing energy consumption.

It was "widely believed". So the Canadians are going to use the excuse that - "a lot of people were stupid like us, so we shouldn't be held to the obvious effects of our behavior."

In fact, it was not "widely believed" at all. I don't know squat about who in the Canadian govt. sold out, but NAFTA is going to go down in history as the greatest agreed to robbery since Manhattan and the cheap necklaces.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Tue 07 Apr 2009, 17:42:36, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE NAFTA Thread.
Massive Human Dieoff <b>must</b> occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where <b>you</b> live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
User avatar
Cashmere
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1882
Joined: Thu 27 Mar 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby zoidberg » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 11:56:04

Brian Mulroney, was the guy. His party went from leading canada to 2 seats, and never recovered. It has been since been absorbed by a western based conservative party.
User avatar
zoidberg
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed 23 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Center of north america

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby green_achers » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 12:00:14

I didn't know a country could sell it's Founding Fathers. The way things are going, we may be down to unloading a few ourselves, though I'm pretty sure the Chinese already have options on all of the best ones...
User avatar
green_achers
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Sun 14 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Mississippi Delta

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby RdSnt » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 12:07:28

We can't kid ourselves. A lot of Canadians knew Nafta was a bad deal and fought against it, but not near hard enough. It wasn't just the oil deal that stank.
Brian Mulroney was the best vice president the US ever had, and he led a party that has a very long history of bending the knee to the US elite. Steven Harper is no better, and while Alberta is giggling like a spoiled child, looking in the rear view mirror and Ontario, they are very happily driving themselves over a cliff. 10 years from now their cities will be ghost towns and the population will be migrating back to the east.
Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
User avatar
RdSnt
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Wed 02 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Canada

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 13:44:43

We all knew it. That's why the conservative party got so thrashed in 1993. Unfortunately, this agreement (which was made against the will of the people, I might add) was already on the books.

Don't worry though, it's just another in a long line of betrayals of the Canadian people by their own government that began with the closure of Avro Canada, and continues to this day under the SPP.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 13:51:38

Dreamtwister wrote:We all knew it. That's why the conservative party got so thrashed in 1993. Unfortunately, this agreement (which was made against the will of the people, I might add) was already on the books.

Don't worry though, it's just another in a long line of betrayals of the Canadian people by their own government that began with the closure of Avro Canada, and continues to this day under the SPP.


Hear Hear!!

Common Ground Interview--Mel Hurtig:

Met Hurtig talks about important, astonishing, and truly amazing things Canadians should know about their country.

Imagine if Canada was a character on the reality TV show Intervention, in which families attempt to salvage the lives of their self-destructive members. From the evidence uncovered by Mel Hurtig, our country would be an easily-manipulated dolt with poor impulse control, memory problems and a bad habit of pawning off valuable possessions. In Canadian Intervention, Hurtig would play the combined role of therapist and Marine gunnery sergeant, trying to convince Canada that it’s not in its best interests to hang out with smooth-talking pundits from right-wing think tanks, tax-dodging CEOs, weapons makers or self-described “journalists” who can’t be bothered to check their sources.

http://commonground.ca/iss/203/cg203_hurtig.shtml
User avatar
threadbear
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7577
Joined: Sat 22 Jan 2005, 04:00:00

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby Bman4k1 » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 14:00:55

Dreamtwister wrote:We all knew it. That's why the conservative party got so thrashed in 1993. Unfortunately, this agreement (which was made against the will of the people, I might add) was already on the books.

Don't worry though, it's just another in a long line of betrayals of the Canadian people by their own government that began with the closure of Avro Canada, and continues to this day under the SPP.


Excellent Post. Lets please not forget that if somebody doesn't stand up and do something, Canada could be bled dry of our water. I worry more about water than oil.
User avatar
Bman4k1
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed 21 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Edmonton, tar-berta

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 17:15:39

Bman4k1 wrote:
Dreamtwister wrote:We all knew it. That's why the conservative party got so thrashed in 1993. Unfortunately, this agreement (which was made against the will of the people, I might add) was already on the books.

Don't worry though, it's just another in a long line of betrayals of the Canadian people by their own government that began with the closure of Avro Canada, and continues to this day under the SPP.


Excellent Post. Lets please not forget that if somebody doesn't stand up and do something, Canada could be bled dry of our water. I worry more about water than oil.


What can we do. It's not rule by consensus anymore. With the Asper's ruling the media, and CBC cowed, many people don't have a grasp of what is going on and how deeply we have been corrupted at worst and compromised at best. Seriously...At this point, what the heck can we do?
User avatar
threadbear
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7577
Joined: Sat 22 Jan 2005, 04:00:00

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby zoidberg » Mon 23 Jun 2008, 23:29:18

threadbear wrote:
Bman4k1 wrote:
Dreamtwister wrote:We all knew it. That's why the conservative party got so thrashed in 1993. Unfortunately, this agreement (which was made against the will of the people, I might add) was already on the books.

Don't worry though, it's just another in a long line of betrayals of the Canadian people by their own government that began with the closure of Avro Canada, and continues to this day under the SPP.


Excellent Post. Lets please not forget that if somebody doesn't stand up and do something, Canada could be bled dry of our water. I worry more about water than oil.


What can we do. It's not rule by consensus anymore. With the Asper's ruling the media, and CBC cowed, many people don't have a grasp of what is going on and how deeply we have been corrupted at worst and compromised at best. Seriously...At this point, what the heck can we do?


Back the smaller parties try to keep the government in minority status. At the very least keep the conservatives away from a majority. The worst case...the war in Iraq has shown quite clearly the weaknesses of the US army. Any attempt by them to impose decrees through military force have proven counters.
User avatar
zoidberg
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed 23 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Center of north america

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby RdSnt » Tue 24 Jun 2008, 08:18:16

In the backs of many Canadians mind is the fear that the US at some inevitable point will simply annex Canada. The fear is not about the annexation but thoughts on what Canadians should do about it.
In my better moments I think the US would be quite surprised by the strong negative reaction from our citizens; on the bad days I think most Canadians would just shrug.
The SPP is a means to quietly annex Canada and considering the state of the US economy I don't see they have much choice. They are bankrupt and resourceless and completely unwilling to change their profligate ways.

Romanticism aside the cancellation of the Avro was the single most destructive act against Canada and is the primary reason why I will never trust a Conservative. Mulroney comes a close second.
Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
User avatar
RdSnt
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Wed 02 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Canada

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby Schneider » Tue 24 Jun 2008, 16:25:07

Let me get this clear : I trust no politicians or so-called "journalists" ..NAFTA was and still is a freakin BAD idea.

But the conservatives ARE THE ONLY ONE'S who aren't trying to pry my gun from my hands :x!

At least, for now..

The same can't be said of the NPD, BQ and of course..the Liberal party of Canada, who already said it would take away semi-autos and handguns from the hands of the citizenship the day following their return in power.

'nuff said..
(Schneider's Books For The Future)
(Schneider's Big 5 Basic Advice For The Newcomers)
[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=vL7Jo_1Z3Y8]Free Hugs!!![/
User avatar
Schneider
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Canada/Quebec Province

Re: Nafta's Real Genesis - Canada's FFs

Unread postby Bman4k1 » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 01:48:48

RdSnt wrote:
Romanticism aside the cancellation of the Avro was the single most destructive act against Canada and is the primary reason why I will never trust a Conservative. Mulroney comes a close second.



Ya.
If you are a fan of aviation like myself. And love reading jet technical manuals you will realize the amazing technical feats of the AVRO. It would probably be still in service up until the 80s. It was so freaking technologically advanced its not even funny. And if it was still around for all of those years. AVRO would have made a succesor, we would have been the world leader in aviation. I really wish you didn't bring that up, because you are right its terrible. But it gets me VERY angry.

Schneider wrote:
But the conservatives ARE THE ONLY ONE'S who aren't trying to pry my gun from my hands !

At least, for now..

The same can't be said of the NPD, BQ and of course..the Liberal party of Canada, who already said it would take away semi-autos and handguns from the hands of the citizenship the day following their return in power.



Don't worry. Trust me, as a card carrier of the *cough* party, if we ever return to power, that will NOT happen. I will not allow it. I'm a gun loving Albertan (not really, I live in Alberta, I love guns, just not an Albertan). The Libs have to talk that way to serve Toronto, but my personal belief is that we have to tackle poverty. You tackle that,you tackle gun crimes. Thats a different story.

But getting back to my point. Water is my biggest concern because it doesn't have a real price to control consumption (rather to mitigate waste), and if we start willingly giving it to them, doesn't it become a NAFTA issue? With FFs at least some people get rich. And also at the same time at most we can give 3 mill barrels a day of oil which is a drop in the bucket.
User avatar
Bman4k1
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed 21 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Edmonton, tar-berta

Canada-EU trade proposal rivals scope of NAFTA

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 07:19:35

Canada-EU trade proposal rivals scope of NAFTA
Plan to lift barriers for goods and labour to be discussed at summit after election

The Globe and Mail
September 18, 2008 at 2:00 AM EDT

LONDON — Canadian and European officials say they plan to begin negotiating a massive agreement to integrate Canada's economy with the 27 nations of the European Union, with preliminary talks to be launched at an Oct. 17 summit in Montreal three days after the federal election.

Trade Minister Michael Fortier and his staff have been engaged for the past two months with EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson and the representatives of European governments in an effort to begin what a senior EU official involved in the talks described in an interview yesterday as “deep economic integration negotiations.”

If successful, Canada would be the first developed nation to have open trade relations with the EU, which has completely open borders between its members but imposes steep trade and investment barriers on outsiders.

The proposed pact would far exceed the scope of older agreements such as NAFTA by encompassing not only unrestricted trade in goods, services and investment and the removal of tariffs, but also the free movement of skilled people and an open market in government services and procurement – which would require that Canadian governments allow European companies to bid as equals on government contracts for both goods and services and end the favouring of local or national providers of public-sector services.

Previous efforts to reach a trade pact with Europe have failed, most recently in 2005 with the collapse of the proposed Trade and Investment Enhancement Agreement.

But with the breakdown of World Trade Organization talks in July, European officials have become much more interested in opening a bilateral trade and economic integration deal with North America.

A pact with the United States would be politically impossible in Europe, senior European Commission officials said.

A newly completed study of the proposed deal, which European officials said Prime Minister Stephen Harper decided not to release until after the election, concludes that the pact would increase bilateral trade and investment by at least $40-billion a year, mainly in trade in services.

Ottawa officials say they have overcome what they see as their biggest hurdle: the resistance of provincial governments to an agreement that would force them to allow European corporations to provide their government services, if their bids are the lowest.

Although Ottawa's current list of foreign-policy priorities does not include European issues, European and Canadian officials say Mr. Harper has been heavily engaged with the proposed trade pact.

The two governments have completed a detailed study of the proposed agreement that will be unveiled shortly after the election, should the Conservatives win.

Both Ottawa and Brussels have had staff work on a draft text for a deal they had hoped would be introduced at a Canada-EU summit, to be attended by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and Mr. Harper in Montreal on Oct. 17. France currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU, and Mr. Sarkozy has said that he hopes to make economic integration with Canada one of his accomplishments.

Last Wednesday, a top Ottawa trade official wrote to Mr. Mandelson to propose “the launch of comprehensive negotiations toward a closer economic partnership at the Canada-EU Leaders Summit, to be held on October 17,” and stressed that all 13 provincial and territorial governments had agreed to the proposed pact at a July 18 meeting in Quebec City.

Because of the election, Mr. Harper appears to have decided not to unveil a full text of the proposed agreement, but instead to use the summit to inaugurate the trade talks with the launch of a “scoping exercise” that will quickly set the goals of the pact and lead to formal “comprehensive trade and investment negotiations” to begin in “early 2009,” according to communications between senior Canadian and European officials examined by The Globe and Mail.

Proponents, including all of Canada's major business-lobby organizations, are in favour of the deal because it would open Canadian exporters to a market of 500 million people and allow the world's largest pool of investment capital into Canadian companies without restrictions.

Because Canada's fractious provinces have killed attempts at a trade pact in the past, Europe is demanding that Canada accept a more far-reaching agreement than Canada and Europe had attempted before, in an effort to win a stronger commitment, EU officials said.

Major “deal-breaker” conditions, officials said, include full agreement by all 10 provinces, especially on the issue of European companies providing government services, and what are known as “geographic indicators,” which forbid products such as champagne and feta cheese to be produced under those names outside their nations of origin. Controversially for Canada, this may soon be extended so only English producers can use the name cheddar on their cheese.

However, both sides agree that there is far more political will to negotiate a major deal, on both sides than there ever has been.

“I am far more optimistic this time than I've ever been in the past. … I feel very confident that we will be able to launch something on Oct. 17 that will give us a better chance than we've ever had before to get a full deal in place,” said Roy MacLaren, head of the Canada-Europe Round Table, a pro-trade business organization that has been heavily involved in the negotiations.

As a trade minister in the Jean Chretien government and later as a diplomat, Mr. MacLaren was involved in several previous attempts at a Canada-EU pact.
User avatar
Nickel
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1927
Joined: Tue 26 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: The Canada of America

Re: Canada-EU trade proposal rivals scope of NAFTA

Unread postby DrBang » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 07:42:27

What would the implications of this be to the North American Union (Amero)?

Is this a bid by Canada to disentagle itself from the NAU strategy (which would have to be not in their best interests)?

Interesting to see nations behaving like corporations. When the going gets tough... merge. Must be a repeating strategy that is scale independent.
For every question , there is a lie. For every lie, there is a truth. For every truth, there is a way. And for every way, there is a time. This is the time.
User avatar
DrBang
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu 14 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: SE Qld Australia

Re: Canada-EU trade proposal rivals scope of NAFTA

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 08:03:24

DrBang wrote:What would the implications of this be to the North American Union (Amero)?


What North American Union?


DrBang wrote:Interesting to see nations behaving like corporations. When the going gets tough... merge. Must be a repeating strategy that is scale independent.


It's not about joining the EU; we can't. We're not in Europe. They're not going to start letting us send reps to Brussels or something. They're just proposing harmonizing standards, ending trade barriers, and letting skilled labour move freely.

I think we've gone as far down the road to integration with the States as any of us cares to go for now. The US is in a financial crisis that's going to take a huge overhaul to straighten out, is feverously wallowing in imperial overreach, has states tacitly competing to execute the most human beings to demonstrate they're "tough on crime", and half its people think electing a man who sings about bombing Iran and a woman who shoots moose and wants to recriminalize reproductive rights in the name of God is a good idea. Generally speaking, these are values that don't reflect Canada's, but Europe's are much closer to what we ourselves espouse in many if not most respects. An opinion I read yesterday said that, in spite of the divergent ethnicities that now make up the country, Canada is in character less a North "American" nation than a northern "European" nation. Geography is destiny, but only to a certain extent.
User avatar
Nickel
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1927
Joined: Tue 26 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: The Canada of America

Re: Canada-EU trade proposal rivals scope of NAFTA

Unread postby Denny » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 08:30:21

In the province of Quebec, there is a lot of cultural interest on cross Atlantic ties. And, Mr. Dion, leader of the Liberal party seems to believe that the European economic platform is presently more sound than the United States, its green environmental initiatives in particular proving it to be a more sustainable economy.

I wonder if it would come down to Canada having to choose between joining the E.U. and continuation its membership in the NAU? Or, can it be a member of both?
User avatar
Denny
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Sat 10 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Canada

Re: Canada-EU trade proposal rivals scope of NAFTA

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 08:42:28

Denny wrote:In the province of Quebec, there is a lot of cultural interest on cross Atlantic ties. And, Mr. Dion, leader of the Liberal party seems to believe that the European economic platform is presently more sound than the United States, its green environmental initiatives in particular proving it to be a more sustainable economy.

I wonder if it would come down to Canada having to choose between joining the E.U. and continuation its membership in the NAU? Or, can it be a member of both?


Where is everybody getting this "North American Union" stuff from? We're going to need passports just to drive to Buffalo in a couple of years. What kind of a "union" do you call that? The border is pretty much only porous to the goods the US wants or needs, and the still-wet-from-the-Fed-press bills they shove back at us.

We're in NAFTA... for whatever that's worth; ask the beef farmers or lumberjacks. I doubt, though, that we're going to pull out of it, but if the States wants to and raise tariffs to make life harder for people there to get the things they NEED from us, I guess that's their call. That kind of power over us, frankly, is one of the reasons we need, badly, to diversify our trade, and seek some partners who actually play by the rules they set instead of just demanding everyone else follow them while ignoring them whenever they're inconvenient. If Obama wants to re-open NAFTA, hey... he ain't the only one with a list.

It's important to note that we would not be "joining" the EU. We won't be sending reps to Brussels or adopting the euro or anything. Just harmonizing our standards with theirs so goods and, to some extent, skilled labour can move back and forth across the Pond more easily. Sounds like a good idea to me.
User avatar
Nickel
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1927
Joined: Tue 26 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: The Canada of America

Re: Canada-EU trade proposal rivals scope of NAFTA

Unread postby RdSnt » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 11:59:58

This is where they are getting the North American Union idea;
http://www.spp-psp.gc.ca/menu-en.aspx,
which is alive and well, if off the radar, and supported by both the Liberals and Conservatives.

Quite frankly this has little to do with Canada, with regards to the EU it is the only entry to the US. The EU has admitted that it would be impossible to get the same agreement with the US.

All that aside, in this age of Peak Oil, where we should be shortening our supply lines and re-localizing manufacturing, making another "freed trade" agreement only undermines even further Canada's ability to revive and reshape its manufacturing base.
Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
User avatar
RdSnt
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Wed 02 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Canada

Re: Canada-EU trade proposal rivals scope of NAFTA

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Fri 19 Sep 2008, 13:38:31

Here's how it will work out:

1) Canada enters this agreement with the EU. For Canada, it's a good way to tell the people that they are now doing business with "someone who pays their bills". This will play well in Ontario. For the EU, it's a good way to access American markets without actually dealing with America.

2) America annexes Canada. We all know it's coming - it's the only way America will ever be able even hope to address it's international obligations.

Personally, I'm waiting for the day Britian and Austrailia are invited to join the NAU. Who knows, maybe they can form one big country. Of course, they will need a clever name for it...something like "Oceania"...
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00

PreviousNext

Return to North America Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests