BiGG wrote:The solution? The first thing is ask yourself whose opinions you should be giving credibility to. Like are doomsayers selling books & videos? Are they just blowhards with no real knowledge other then how to spin a tale filled with generalities? Do they have any real experience regarding the issues they are spinning or are they just repeating information from select others and missing the big picture? Do they really know what they are talking about, where are their credentials?
MonteQuest wrote:There is no technology, nor will there ever be, that will have the cheapness, energy density, scalablity, EROEI and physical properties of oil upon which we have built our current modern civilization that supports 6.5 billion people, no matter how much you focus on it. There is no techno-fix that can replace a phantom carrying capacity based upon a one-time treasure chest of non-renewable energies and a mindset of infinite growth in a finite world. Get use to the idea. It is not going away.
Ludi wrote:Some solutions are thoroughly described in Bill Mollison's book "Permaculture: A Designer's Manual"; more solutions in the works of Masanobu Fukuoka, and John Jeavons.
Dezakin wrote: If technology fixes things, eventually all elements of the ecology only survives on the interest or whim of the children of humanity.
johnmarkos wrote: Unfortunately, once I got to the "solutions" part of the book, I thought, "Is that all there is?" I feel myself sliding back towards the doomer camp. Where's groundless optimism when you need it?
Can you give some examples of technology "fixing" ecology? How about an example of technology "fixing" the world climate systems? How is technology "fixing" the fisheries, the soil, the water, the forests?
Shows what little you know about plough agriculture, a total disaster.
We dont need fisheries or forests.
Oh, you are one of those. Never mind.
Dezakin wrote:Shows what little you know about plough agriculture, a total disaster.
The bridge between hunter-gatherer culture to the dawn of civilization was a total disaster in what way?We dont need fisheries or forests.
Oh, you are one of those. Never mind.
So my point about pseudo-religeous reaction to environmental issues has touched a nerve then? We currently make use of fisheries and wild forests, but we obviously dont need them any more than we need wild berries to survive and thrive.
Dezakin wrote:
The bridge between hunter-gatherer culture to the dawn of civilization was a total disaster in what way?
So my point about pseudo-religeous reaction to environmental issues has touched a nerve then?
we obviously dont need them any more than we need wild berries to survive and thrive.
Dezakin wrote:
We dont need fisheries or forests. We know how to manage soil and water for farm and residential water concerns, from crop cycling to desalination. Climate change, for all its hype and real dangers, presents no real threat to humanity.
(...)
Plough agriculture led to populations which expanded
If you think we don't need "wild forests" (fully functioning forest ecosystems), then you know virtually nothing about the life systems of the planet, specifically the water cycle, carbon cycle, and global weather system.
I hold a controversial position and the ad-hominems fly.And your ignorance is what passes for knowledge these days. Really, really sad.
Its mostly the trees that make the rain once you're more than about 50 kilometres inland from the ocean.
Fool
Dezakin wrote:Sounds like a resounding success to me, unless you feel larger populations are inherantly evil. Perhaps you think humanity should never have evolved at all.
Dezakin wrote:
Sounds like a resounding success to me, unless you feel larger populations are inherantly evil. Perhaps you think humanity should never have evolved at all.
Theres no natural cycle that we can't replicate in an engineered fasion to more appropriately suit our needs, and thats been demonstrated from the sealed jars with algae and shrimp to ridiculous projects such as biosphere 2.
When I make the assumtion that technology will continue to advance, I'm accused of engaging in a science-fiction delusion.
When I suggest humanity isn't dependant on the status-quo ecosystem, I'm accused of being ignorant.
You don't think just maybe the rain makes the trees instead?
Where am I wrong and how am I wrong?
Ludi wrote:http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/trees_gs.htm
"A forest can return (unlike the sea) 75% of its water to air, "in large enough amounts to form new rain clouds". (Bayard Webster, "Forests' Role in Weather Documented in Amazon", NY Times, July 5, '83). forested areas return ten times as much moisture as bare ground, and twice as much as grasslands. In fact, as far as the atmosphere itself is concerned, "the release of water from the trees and other plants accounts for half, or even more of all moisture returned to air". (Webster) This is a critical finding that adds even more data to the relationship of desertification by deforestation. Clouds form above forests, and such clouds are now mixtures of oceanic and forest water vapour, clearly distinguishable by careful isotopes analysis. The water vapour from forests contain more organic nucleii and plant nutrients than does the 'pure' oceanic water. Oxygen isotopes are measured to determine the forests' contribution, which can be done for any cloud system."
Dezakin wrote:....Theres no natural cycle that we can't replicate in an engineered fasion to more appropriately suit our needs, and thats been demonstrated from the sealed jars with algae and shrimp to ridiculous projects such as biosphere 2...
Dezakin wrote:....You don't think just maybe the rain makes the trees instead?
arocoun wrote:Dezakin--Are you serious in all that you're saying?! If so, the fact that you see every resource and life on this planet as something to be conquered and exploited leaves me with a strong sense of anger and disgust. You've got to be kidding, or satirizing, or something; otherwise you seem like nothing better than the old slavers of the South, the Indian killers, or the wolf hunters.
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