[Jotapay]

But the trend, averaged over 11,000 years, is continuous in one direction: cold-house to hot-house climate. Small sinusoidal vacillations will occur in the overall trend.

[strider3700]

I'm always amazed that someone as smart as lovelock could have been so optimistic.

He started warning that things are bad and will get worse if we don't change.
Then he warned that things are really bad and we need to start making tons of nukes to power the future.
Then he warned that we're screwed go get a ferrari and enjoy life.
Now we're all dead but don't know it yet.

Any good scientist should have noticed that people don't change unless forced to and then looking at how things would likely play out he should have noticed they won't be forced until it's far too late to change. Doomers knew how the story ended long before this guy got there.

[Cid_Yama]

From this map, it looks like the northern Northern Territories and the area between Geraldton and Exmouth will be the only habitable places in Australia.

Map

[SeaGypsy]

Why is this genius arguing for nuclear power?

Were routed anyway. Why put this into the mix even more than we already have.

What right has this generation to leave around thousands of radioactive toxic zones?

How can we assume a continuity of any kind for the current crop's culture?

Do we dare to presume than in tens of millions (or thousands) of years, when humanity may re-emerge post die off, they will know the meaning of those radioactivity symbols?

Be honest& put skull& crossbones on this stuff everywhere it goes.

Then at least humans will know what it is& maybe be smart enough to stay away.

I've seen no evidence that nukes can make up even 1 year oil equivalent energy.

Leave the evil shit in the ground.

[Tanada]

Why is this genius arguing for nuclear power?

Were routed anyway. Why put this into the mix even more than we already have.

What right has this generation to leave around thousands of radioactive toxic zones?

How can we assume a continuity of any kind for the current crop's culture?

Do we dare to presume than in tens of millions (or thousands) of years, when humanity may re-emerge post die off, they will know the meaning of those radioactivity symbols?

Be honest& put skull& crossbones on this stuff everywhere it goes.

Then at least humans will know what it is& maybe be smart enough to stay away.

I've seen no evidence that nukes can make up even 1 year oil equivalent energy.

Leave the evil shit in the ground.

There are none so blind as those who choose not to see. Yes this mean you Seagypsy.

[rangerone314]

What are you guys talking about? Humans are doing great. The gene pool has spread all over the globe, created life support systems and has gained amounts of variation other species could only dream of. This is as good as it gets for the genes, you win at life by not loosing as much as everyone else.

Human's are actually NOT that genetically diverse compared to many other species. Superficial physical appearances may differ a bit but not the genetics...

[KevO]

Here I was expecting a super dose of freshly baked doom and find this article which is over a year old and has been covered extensively on this forum.

Well yes and no.
It's ORIGINALLY a year old but the Times article is days old as the book is about to be released so it's in the news again and you can bet on seeing talk shows and reviews and all sorts on Lovelock and the subject this year.
What this will do to society I don't know. The book is being hailed by Andrew Marr (the UK's top political analyser) as "the most important book for decades".
What I think it will do is sign a death knell for the Green movement as Lovelock will be believed and people will give up Green.
Some may turn Buddhist, most will party like it's 2009.
More oil will be burned ...........we all know the next line.
And who said 2030? We'll be lucky to pass 2012.

[SeaGypsy]

Why is this genius arguing for nuclear power?

Were routed anyway. Why put this into the mix even more than we already have.

What right has this generation to leave around thousands of radioactive toxic zones?

How can we assume a continuity of any kind for the current crop's culture?

Do we dare to presume than in tens of millions (or thousands) of years, when humanity may re-emerge post die off, they will know the meaning of those radioactivity symbols?

Be honest& put skull& crossbones on this stuff everywhere it goes.

Then at least humans will know what it is& maybe be smart enough to stay away.

I've seen no evidence that nukes can make up even 1 year oil equivalent energy.

Leave the evil shit in the ground.

There are none so blind as those who choose not to see. Yes this mean you Seagypsy.

OUCH!!! Boo hoo!

[dunny]

Why is this genius arguing for nuclear power?

You answer yourself matey. He's a genius.

Personally, I reckon you're right. But I'm not a genius.

I like your plan to be on a boat too matey. I'd do it if I was single. I have 4 kids and a wife though and it seems too tricky for me. I reckon humanity is heading back to a sustainable hunter gather lifeway within 100 years. Leaving toxic waste areas round the place from nuclear plants seems dopey to me.

Like I said, I'm no genius.

Mick.

[SeaGypsy]

Why is this genius arguing for nuclear power?

You answer yourself matey. He's a genius.

Personally, I reckon you're right. But I'm not a genius.

I like your plan to be on a boat too matey. I'd do it if I was single. I have 4 kids and a wife though and it seems too tricky for me. I reckon humanity is heading back to a sustainable hunter gather lifeway within 100 years. Leaving toxic waste areas round the place from nuclear plants seems dopey to me.

Like I said, I'm no genius.


Picture this:
circa 10,000 PC....

Lecture at the Platonic University of Sustainability.

" Imagine that at the time of collapse there were people who claimed to be environmentalists, advocating thermo nuclear power right up until the Great Die Off.

Some of these people like the eminent scientist of the time, James Lovelock, were hailed as genius for their work in developing theories such as the foundation of our beloved Gaia Science: were at the same time promoting the use of this poison which has killed more people since the collapse than the collapse itself.

As we are all now aware the continuum break caused by 99% of humanity being wiped out in the Great Die Off meant that the convoluted symbols used at the time, lost their meaning.

The same scientists who were advocating a measly amount of energy, enough to supply world energy consumption for less than a year was worth leaving this hideous legacy for future generations; were called visionary ecologists by their peers."

Is this scenario impossible or very likely?

[Tanada]

Why is this genius arguing for nuclear power?

You answer yourself matey. He's a genius.

Personally, I reckon you're right. But I'm not a genius.

I like your plan to be on a boat too matey. I'd do it if I was single. I have 4 kids and a wife though and it seems too tricky for me. I reckon humanity is heading back to a sustainable hunter gather lifeway within 100 years. Leaving toxic waste areas round the place from nuclear plants seems dopey to me.

Like I said, I'm no genius.


Picture this:
circa 10,000 PC....

Lecture at the Platonic University of Sustainability.

" Imagine that at the time of collapse there were people who claimed to be environmentalists, advocating thermo nuclear power right up until the Great Die Off.

Some of these people like the eminent scientist of the time, James Lovelock, were hailed as genius for their work in developing theories such as the foundation of our beloved Gaia Science: were at the same time promoting the use of this poison which has killed more people since the collapse than the collapse itself.

As we are all now aware the continuum break caused by 99% of humanity being wiped out in the Great Die Off meant that the convoluted symbols used at the time, lost their meaning.

The same scientists who were advocating a measly amount of energy, enough to supply world energy consumption for less than a year was worth leaving this hideous legacy for future generations; were called visionary ecologists by their peers."

Is this scenario impossible or very likely?

Seems how you ask the correct answer is, IMPOSSIBLE .

[sihmei]

I used to be for nuclear power but I now do worry what happens to the hundreds of nuclear reactors around the world and their waste when the civilisation that built them and is required to maintain them is gone. It's probably too expensive anyway and is utterly fossil fuel dependent. Time to accept we're going back to the fields I think.

[SeaGypsy]

Picture this:
circa 10,000 PC....

Lecture at the Platonic University of Sustainability.

" Imagine that at the time of collapse there were people who claimed to be environmentalists, advocating thermo nuclear power right up until the Great Die Off.

Some of these people like the eminent scientist of the time, James Lovelock, were hailed as genius for their work in developing theories such as the foundation of our beloved Gaia Science: were at the same time promoting the use of this poison which has killed more people since the collapse than the collapse itself.

As we are all now aware the continuum break caused by 99% of humanity being wiped out in the Great Die Off meant that the convoluted symbols used at the time, lost their meaning.

The same scientists who were advocating a measly amount of energy, enough to supply world energy consumption for less than a year was worth leaving this hideous legacy for future generations; were called visionary ecologists by their peers."

Is this scenario impossible or very likely?[/quote]

Seems how you ask the correct answer is, IMPOSSIBLE .[/quote]


TANADA: fail.

[Tanada]

Picture this:
circa 10,000 PC....

Lecture at the Platonic University of Sustainability.

" Imagine that at the time of collapse there were people who claimed to be environmentalists, advocating thermo nuclear power right up until the Great Die Off.

Some of these people like the eminent scientist of the time, James Lovelock, were hailed as genius for their work in developing theories such as the foundation of our beloved Gaia Science: were at the same time promoting the use of this poison which has killed more people since the collapse than the collapse itself.

As we are all now aware the continuum break caused by 99% of humanity being wiped out in the Great Die Off meant that the convoluted symbols used at the time, lost their meaning.

The same scientists who were advocating a measly amount of energy, enough to supply world energy consumption for less than a year was worth leaving this hideous legacy for future generations; were called visionary ecologists by their peers."

Is this scenario impossible or very likely?

Seems how you ask the correct answer is, IMPOSSIBLE .

TANADA: fail Knowledge!.

There, fixed it for you SeaGypsy.

[Cid_Yama]

Lovelock isn't advocating nuclear power as a means to curtail global warming. He plainly states it is already too late.

His point is to keep the lights on as long as possible to ameliorate the suffering.

Also, he is advocating it as a solution for UK only.

[Cid_Yama]

Lovelock names this illness polyanthroponomia, a condition in which humans are so plentiful they do more harm than good. More to the point, the condition is untreatable. Renewable energy projects, cutting carbon footprints and promoting sustainable development and other green ideas are no more than the posturing of "tribal animals bravely wielding symbols against the menace of an ineluctable force". In short, we are heading towards a climate catastrophe that will leave only pockets of humanity left alive, says Lovelock.

link

[Cid_Yama]

Critics have not been convinced. Ward, in The Medea Hypothesis, argues bluntly that our planet is not a Daisyworld. Drawing on his experience as a paleontologist, he says the history of the earth and its life suggests that there are violent fluctuations -- especially mass-extinction episodes -- and no evidence that the earth then returns to anything like equilibrium. Indeed, he argues (and that gives him his rather overly cute title, which refers to the character in the Euripides play who killed her children) that life is, in a sense, poisonous and carries within itself the seeds of its own destruction. For instance, again and again microbes in the sea have produced vast quantities of carbon dioxide, leading to violent changes of temperature here on earth, a consequent lack of oxygen, and mass deaths. There is nothing particularly homeostatic about any of that, even though there may have been rebounds to eras of very different flora and fauna.

link

[Cid_Yama]

My argument with Ward is that the Permian-Triassic extinction, the Triassic-Jurassic Extinction, and the PETM were all preceeded by periods of Volcanism that produced GHGs that caused the initial warming leading to catastrophic methane release, not 'microbes in the sea producing vast quantities of carbon dioxide'.

The only time that I can think of that organisms initiated the death of the biosphere(other than now), was when oxyphotosynthetic organisms evolved, filling the atmosphere with oxygen, and killing all the then existing anerobic organisms on the planet.

Since Ward claims to be a paleontologist, he should already know this, and I think willfully misrepresented this in an attempt to 'disprove' daisyworld, which had become a passion of opponents at the time.

Otherwise I like his point that mass exinctions are not homeostatic.

But Lovelock's point is our population exceeded the carrying capacity of the biosphere taking us outside the limits of homeostatic balance.

Our impending die-off could be argued to be a homeostatic balance, but, since the biosphere won't return to the previous state, Ward does have a point.

[ohanian]

Straight from the slashdot. Modeling the economy as purely a physics problem link

er? Is Lovelock a physicist? link

[dorlomin]

Lovelock started of as a biochemist IIRC specilising in cancer, however he was one of those wandering minds and ended up working on atmospheric chemistry. He developed a mechanism for detecting CFCs in the atmosphere to trace them, and narrowly missed out on sharing the Nobel Prize for the work on the ozone hole (for a good reason though). He was hired by NASA to help work on life detectors on Mars as part of Viking but while contemplating what gasses would give life away had an epiphany that life moulds a planet to its own needs and if life existed on Mars its byproducts would be visible by spectrascopy on earth. He used this insight to develop a theory that the earth as an entire planet was a self regulating mechanism analogous to an organism and that the interatction between life, geology and the climate were part of that regulatory system. For example the weathering of rocks was important in locking CO2 out of the atmosphere but the outgassing of volcanos brought it into the atmosphere and the relationship between the two help govern the climate which affected the rate of weathering.

Thee of the most public proponents of the threat of CO2, Carl Sagan, James Hansen and James Lovelock are all distinguished by having studidied atmospheres other than earths. Sagan and Lovelock have used there knowledge to make famous predictions about other planets (Venus and Mars) that have largely been borne out.

Ill read around tomorrow and make sure I have my facts straight, that was all from memory.