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THE Hypermiling Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby Roy » Sun 27 May 2007, 09:42:51

Here's my take on it.

I occasionally drive a 2003 Nissan Altima V6 5 speed M/T.

When I drive it, it consistently gets ~30mpg in mixed driving. When my wife drives it, it gets ~25 mpg consistently.

How do I get that extra 5 mpg or 80 miles per tank? By conserving momentum, not running the A/C, going the speed limit etc.

That's the key that most drivers don't seem to get. For instance, tailgating wastes fuel, because it makes it difficult to conserve momentum.

Hitting the brakes turns kinetic energy into heat at the brake discs/drums. IE coast and keep braking to a minimum.

Automatic transmissions, preferred by Americans, are also inefficient in some ways, such as idling in D, the engine is pushing against the brake (torque converter slipping). People with auto transmissions can save fuel by shifting to neutral when they are stopped, but most don't. The savings are small, but just like building a performance engine, every little thing adds up.

I always coast in neutral on downhills or when I see that I'm heading toward a stop. I turn off my engine at long lights. I keep the engine RPM below 2500 wherever possible. Admittedly a manual transmission makes these things easier to implement.

I try to keep moving, but I don't run stop signs or take corners at unsafe speeds.

Since my car is rated 23/27, I feel pretty good about averaging 30mpg in mixed driving. And yes, the MPG meter was very helpful in me learning how to maximize the mileage in THAT car. I wish my other car had one.

Any car can see similar gains percentage-wise, if their drivers stopped thinking about "me here me go there" and started thinking about how chemical energy is wastefully converted into momentum by the gasoline engine (~30% eff), and again converted to heat by the brake system.

I tell my wife, to no avail evidently, to think of it like you were riding a bicycle. When biking we naturally conserve momentum because were are intimately aware of the energy required to accelerate from a stop.

As a result of her less efficient technique, she usually drives the TDI Jetta 5 m/t(averages 43 mpg) , and I mosey along in my Pre-PO awareness Altima, maximizing its miles per gallon at all times. I'm able to get almost 50mpg with the Jetta, but a quick break-even analaysis reveals that I should be driving the Altima, as she drives more than I do each day.

Just because an engine makes high hp/cubic inch, doesn't mean that it can't be driven efficiently. My friend has the same car (Altima 3.5SE) with a 5 speed automatic trans, and never gets more than 23 mpg. Part of that is due, I'm sure, to the fact that he always runs the A/C, and drives like most people: hard on the gas, hard on the brakes, tailgating,ad infinitum.

One thing I've learned in a lifetime of hot rodding, racing, restoring, and driving cars is that speed costs money. How fast you go depends on how much you're willing to spend. Me, I am not willing to spend much any more, therefore I go slow... :roll: :roll: .. much to the consternation of many of my fellow drivers.

I keep expecting to see signs of other people grasping this concept, yet on a 350 mile road trip two weeks ago, where I drove the speed limit the whole way, I passed only 6 cars, and was passed by hundreds of SUVs, cars, and semi-trucks moving in excess of 80 mph.

In theory a 55 mph speed limit would help, but in reality it would result in increased revenues for various police departments and for auto insurance providers, as most people have a callous disregard for the speed limit or so it seems. I used to be one of them until PO woke me up.

Just my 2¢
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Sun 27 May 2007, 14:50:50

You don't even have to go much slower than the flow of traffic, just think, like you were saying, like you're riding a bicycle or like you're driving a stick. It's all about the flow. All it takes is looking ahead more than 50 yards.

And it works with any car!

Interestingly, my Prius gets much better mileage with the windows up and the AC on than with the windows down. Even at 25-35 MPH speeds on the local roads around here. Sadly, it also gets very hot inside once the outside temperature gets above 70F so for half the year I'm running the AC a lot! The other half of the year, the defogger and often the heater.....
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby perdition79 » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:46:10

I get 35 mpg (80% highway/20% city) in my v6 sebring convertible. EPA estimates for my 3400-pound land yacht are 19 city/26 highway. I'm a hypermiler, but not one of the unsafe ones.

Anyone can improve their gas mileage without having to resort to tailgating semi trucks and taking corners at close to .90g. Just keep your tire pressure around 35 psi, accelerate lazily from a dead stop, throw your car in neutral at traffic lights, avoid excessive idling, avoid sudden braking and acceleration, shut the a/c off (drink more water in the summer intead) and avoid travelling in wolfpacks of traffic -- fall behind them. Keep your car tuned up, change your oil, check your shocks.

And of course, the most obvious fuel-saver of all: don't drive unless you have to! Swing by the grocery store, gas station, adult bookstore, etc. on your way home from work instead of making a special trip. Combine your weekend errands into one trip with an efficient route. Ride your bicycle if you're headed to a store less than two miles away when you only need to grab one item. Take a bus if you can.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby jdmartin » Mon 28 May 2007, 23:12:32

I read that article several weeks ago on another forum (a car forum).

The only worthwhile thing about the publicity of hypermiling is possibly getting a few people to think about normal driving habits that can be altered, i.e. jackrabbit starts. Otherwise, a lot of what that guy was/is doing is unsafe as hell and amounts to driving like an asshole just so he can save some fuel. I lived in Chicago and know the area he commutes well, and it's more or less flat as a damn pancake. Turning the engine off on piddly hills out there is asinine, especially with the kind of traffic that area sees. What if he needs to make a quick avoidance maneuver? Pretty interesting to do when there's no engine power. Drafting so close to trucks that they can't see you there is a good way to get other people hurt, who "assume" that you're following basic rules of the road. That guy would make a greater contribution by just driving like a normal human being and living 50 miles closer to his job.

Now as far as the normal stuff goes, I already do it and my cars consistently exceed the rated MPG's - I have a Mazda Miata commuter that regularly sees 32-36mpg, even though the rated EPA mileage back in 95 was 30mpg, and that was at slow, generous speeds. I have a Titan pickup truck that only gets driven occasionally on weekends that gets me 15/16mpg around town when the rated mileage is 12 (imagine that 8O). I basically never use jackrabbit starts, coast quite often in neutral if I'm somewhere on a 6 lane interstate with a long, long downhill, or coming to a stoplight, keep rpms below 3000 on the truck & 4000 on the Miata (high-revving engine).
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby jdmartin » Mon 28 May 2007, 23:30:10

PS: Some of these people are just stupid.

I did a calculation once, based on my driving, and I drive a lot (40k+ miles per year, not including my wife's driving, some of it for my job). I figured out that I could gain roughly 3.5mpg if I were to drop my speed down to a point where I added 20 minutes total (10 min each way) to my commute. When I added up the extra gas I was spending at $3, and then divided my annual extra time against the annual extra savings, I found that I would be "paying" myself about $2 per hour to add 20 minutes commute to my daily ride, which means I would be paying myself about $3 per week ($150 per year) for that savings. I don't know about too many other people, but I sure as hell am not going to work anywhere for $2 per hour, even if it is tax free. Gas would have to get to some pretty impressive levels - say $15 per gallon - before I'd be willing to add that much time to an already arduous commute...
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby Syeer » Tue 29 May 2007, 00:38:15

lawnchair wrote:Well, the shutting off unneeded cylinders is not always possible. There's no easy way to do it in a car with one carburetor nor a car with a single manifold fuel injector. It's possible in a modern car with per-cylinder fuel injection, but the engine management computer would go nuts. You could do it all in software, though, which is what manufacturers are doing today.

Syeer - Well, the 64 is certainly before the VW 'refinements' (fuel injector or watercooling). I know some VWs were twin-carb (it makes some sense in a boxer engine) and some were single-carb. If it is twin-carb, try pinching off the fuel line before one carb with the engine running. Wait a second for the fuel in the carb to get drained. See if it will run on two. On the Opel, it was just a spring-loaded ball valve in the fuel line before the carb and a Bowden cable (bicycle brake cable) to the dash.

YMMV and please don't sue me if this destroys your nice vintage VW. It's not worth killing a nice car!




Yeah, I didn't think it would be possible without a dual 2bbl carb setup, which I don't have. I was just curious if somehow, some way someone figured out a way to do with single-carb setups like mine. Maybe some form of manifold modification involving....I have no idea what. Maybe a little machining and the addition of some butterfly valves (would work only on dual port) and cables? Mind's drifting off now :roll:
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby JRP3 » Tue 29 May 2007, 19:00:57

jdmartin wrote:PS: Some of these people are just stupid.

I did a calculation once, based on my driving, and I drive a lot (40k+ miles per year, not including my wife's driving, some of it for my job). I figured out that I could gain roughly 3.5mpg if I were to drop my speed down to a point where I added 20 minutes total (10 min each way) to my commute. When I added up the extra gas I was spending at $3, and then divided my annual extra time against the annual extra savings, I found that I would be "paying" myself about $2 per hour to add 20 minutes commute to my daily ride, which means I would be paying myself about $3 per week ($150 per year) for that savings. I don't know about too many other people, but I sure as hell am not going to work anywhere for $2 per hour, even if it is tax free. Gas would have to get to some pretty impressive levels - say $15 per gallon - before I'd be willing to add that much time to an already arduous commute...



Yup, that's the problem, gas is still way too cheap to make it worthwhile to do anything radical. Don't worry though, soon enough we'll be doing anything we can.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby gg3 » Wed 30 May 2007, 08:17:17

Or you can telecommute.

I can make your office phone extension ring on your home line or mobile, and give you the ability to transfer calls to coworkers by pressing the # and dialing their extension numbers, and take voicemail in the company's voicemail system if you don't answer, and deliver your voicemail in your email.

Every one of those I set up for a client translates to fewer car trips per week. You can call it "zero gallons per person per day."
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby JRP3 » Wed 30 May 2007, 09:13:40

gg3 wrote:Or you can telecommute.



Well, I work in a marina. If you can set me up to launch boats by phone I'm all for it :lol:
On the other hand, I also live there so I walk to work each day 8)
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby Terrapin » Wed 30 May 2007, 13:41:30

LOL, I know Wayne from another forum. He was (may still be) a frequent contributor to a number of car forums. A lot of people with Insights do minor modifications to them to help mileage, but he did them all and then some. He did the standard “cold weather mod” for an Insight of blocking the radiator and extending the air intake to the vicinity of the catalytic converter before he even took his car off the dealer lot so that his personal lifetime MPG would be as high as possible. He is completely dedicated and although he sold his Insight over a year ago he is still referred to with god-like reverence back at the Insight forum.

IIRC he could get over 40mpg in his family’s SUV.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby WisJim » Wed 30 May 2007, 14:03:13

The early 90s Honda Civic VX is a good car to get for fuel efficiency. I thin it was made in 1992-1995. It's fuel injection shut off under certain conditions when not needed, and it had other design features that made it more fuel efficient. I think the EPA highway rating was as high as 52 or more some years. My son averages over 47 with mostly in town driving. A Geo/Chevy Metro, especially the XFI model of the mid-90s is a bit better in ratings, and the other models beat anything but a hybrid that is now available in the USA.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby Terrapin » Wed 30 May 2007, 14:21:34

Even the modern Civics are impressive. If you put the “low rolling resistance” (rock hard) tires common to hybrids on them they would be even better. If the manufactures would only add an instantaneous MPG display that gives the driver feedback as to what they are doing most everyone that wanted to could improve their mileage by 10% or more without doing anything dangerous like Wayne does.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby jdmartin » Wed 30 May 2007, 14:37:00

Terrapin wrote:Even the modern Civics are impressive. If you put the “low rolling resistance” (rock hard) tires common to hybrids on them they would be even better. If the manufactures would only add an instantaneous MPG display that gives the driver feedback as to what they are doing most everyone that wanted to could improve their mileage by 10% or more without doing anything dangerous like Wayne does.


That's probably the best idea I've heard about the issue. Real simple readout on the dashboard would give a lot of people insight as to how their driving affects their MPG.
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby Terrapin » Wed 30 May 2007, 15:32:53

jdmartin wrote:
Terrapin wrote:Even the modern Civics are impressive. If you put the “low rolling resistance” (rock hard) tires common to hybrids on them they would be even better. If the manufactures would only add an instantaneous MPG display that gives the driver feedback as to what they are doing most everyone that wanted to could improve their mileage by 10% or more without doing anything dangerous like Wayne does.


That's probably the best idea I've heard about the issue. Real simple readout on the dashboard would give a lot of people insight as to how their driving affects their MPG.


Exactly.

BTW JD, I still miss Jerry. How ‘bout you?
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby jdmartin » Wed 30 May 2007, 16:43:58

Terrapin wrote:
jdmartin wrote:
Terrapin wrote:Even the modern Civics are impressive. If you put the “low rolling resistance” (rock hard) tires common to hybrids on them they would be even better. If the manufactures would only add an instantaneous MPG display that gives the driver feedback as to what they are doing most everyone that wanted to could improve their mileage by 10% or more without doing anything dangerous like Wayne does.


That's probably the best idea I've heard about the issue. Real simple readout on the dashboard would give a lot of people insight as to how their driving affects their MPG.


Exactly.

BTW JD, I still miss Jerry. How ‘bout you?


:) Like a steam locomotive, rolling down the track
He's gone, and nothing's gonna bring him back.

I do as well; in all honesty I expected better side bands out of the rest of the guys so in some sense it's a major disappointment. Apparently, Jerry WAS the musical glue holding all of that together. Luckily, I've got a mess of tapes & cd's, so for me the music never stopped :P
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby Terrapin » Wed 30 May 2007, 19:54:37

Yup.

Such a long long time to be gone and a short time to be there.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby xrotaryguy » Wed 30 May 2007, 20:36:01

joewp wrote:Interesting article, but I wonder what he'd do if he was informed of Jevons' Paradox and he realized that his saving fuel makes it cheaper and just results in more people "throwing it away"?


So by driving like this I can burn less fuel... and it will be cheaper? Sign me up! ;)
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby xrotaryguy » Wed 30 May 2007, 20:49:19

I_Like_Plants wrote:And 5 miles a WEEK means if it's possible (some places in the US it's simply not!) you can walk or bike it.

No fuel use at all!


Then there are those, like myself, who can not ride a bicycle or walk for significant distances for health reasons. Perhaps people like me will be part of the die-off. Then again, the technology exists that would make a die-off unnecessary, so I doubt it will happen. More fuel efficient vehicles are on the way. We will all be hyper-mileing with out even trying.
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 30 May 2007, 20:58:19

Then again, the technology exists that would make a die-off unnecessary, so I doubt it will happen.


Odds are good that this technology won't be ramped up in time; it will take at least a decade if we have a WWII style crash program in place. There are a few very wealthy individuals that will see to it that their traditional income sources, such as oil, defense, automobiles, coal, and others aren't compromised. Alternatives by their very nature are extremely disruptive to the status quo and those in positions of power just don't want them taking hold.


Asset inertia is the only remaining problem of any extreme significance to addressing peak oil, and it just so happens to be the biggest problem of them all.(Next of course, is population levels).
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Hypermiling?

Unread postby xrotaryguy » Wed 30 May 2007, 21:21:10

The_Toecutter wrote:
Then again, the technology exists that would make a die-off unnecessary, so I doubt it will happen.


Odds are good that this technology won't be ramped up in time; it will take at least a decade if we have a WWII style crash program in place.

I must respectfully disagree. A WWII style program has nothing on a capitalism society. We have fantastic technologies at our disposal right now. If the government were solely responsible technological development, then these technologies would never have come into existence. The fed has nothing on capitalism. It merely tries to keep it in check.

The Toecutter wrote:There are a few very wealthy individuals that will see to it that their traditional income sources, such as oil, defense, automobiles, coal, and others aren't compromised. Alternatives by their very nature are extremely disruptive to the status quo and those in positions of power just don't want them taking hold.


And when the oil runs out, no one will be making money from oil, defense, or automobiles unless alternative technologies (which already exist) are exploited. The filthy rich want to stay filthy rich. These people didn't become wealthy by accident. Alternative technologies will take the place of oil

The Toecutter wrote:Asset inertia is the only remaining problem of any extreme significance to addressing peak oil, and it just so happens to be the biggest problem of them all.(Next of course, is population levels).


Then again, asset inertia would not be as big a problem if it weren't for China developing at its current rate. Perhaps population is the larger problem. Or not. Just looking at this another way.
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