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THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 21 Sep 2022, 09:35:22

It sounds to me as if France has escaped from the "leadership" of the Anti-Nuclear movement in their own government and is reasserting themselves for the first time in well over a decade on the issue. France largely decarbonized itself in the 1975-85 period and the hard anti-nuclear crowd does not want to grant them any credit for decarbonizing without becoming fully dependent on intermittent weather driven renewables. Link below quote.
EXCLUSIVE: France urges Brussels to label nuclear-produced hydrogen 'green'

French Energy Minister Agnès Pannier-Runacher is trying to get EU Energy Commissioner Kadri Simson to include nuclear among energy sources for the production of so-called “green” hydrogen, according to a letter seen by EURACTIV France.

In May, the European Union unveiled its REPowerEU programme to rapidly reduce dependence on Russian fossil fuels and speed up the green transition.

The targets listed in the programme include producing 10 million tonnes of green hydrogen by 2030 and importing 10 million tonnes from third countries that respect the same environmental and technological standards.

But according to the French minister, the current rules leave little room for the production of green hydrogen from “low-carbon” electricity, mostly nuclear power.

Given “the absolute priority of the next decade for hydrogen, […] the only important issue is the carbon content of the hydrogen produced and not the production vector,” Pannier-Runacher wrote to the European Commissioner.

This puts “the achievement of our common goals at risk,” she warned.

In her letter, Pannier-Runacher also took aim at the so-called principle of ‘additionality’, which allows renewable hydrogen to be labelled “green” as long as it is produced from electricity mixes containing more than 90% of renewables.

It “does not apply well to countries with an electricity mix that is already largely decarbonised, where the supply of electricity by the grid must be treated on an equal footing with direct supplies through contracts with renewable sources,” Pannier-Runacher wrote.

“Largely decarbonised” mixes like the French mix, which only produces 80 gCO2/MWh due to its heavy reliance on nuclear power, should also be exempted, according to the French minister.

Late on Friday 20 May, the European Commission published rules for calling transport fuels of non-biological origin, including hydrogen, renewable. The criteria is strict, despite industry lobbying, write Corinna Klessmann, Felix von Blücher, and Malte Gephart.
Respecting EU minimum standards

Another concern noted in the letter is the EU’s hydrogen import strategy, which according to the French government, poses a risk of technology spill-over and imports of hydrogen that do not comply with EU production standards.

“The development of carbon-free hydrogen must be an opportunity to strengthen our energy sovereignty: the use of imports must be on an equal playing field with European production,” Pannier-Runacher insists.

Another bone of contention is the fact that, under the EU’s draft renewable energy directive, public money cannot help fund electricity generation for the production of green hydrogen. “This seems counterproductive with regard to the climate emergency and could be difficult to implement, given the different forms public support can take,” Pannier-Runacher warned.

Not including low-carbon hydrogen in the renewable energy directive would be “an extremely degraded solution” for France, she added. “Failing this, if low-carbon hydrogen does not obtain the possibility of contributing to the objectives of the directive, [….], it would be appropriate to limit the discrimination of low-carbon technologies other than renewable energies,” the letter adds.

The French minister thus called on the Commission to leave it up to the member states to introduce low-carbon energies on the same level as renewable energies in the mix, as long as this contributes to the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions.

France riding solo

The pro-nuclear position of the French when it comes to green hydrogen is not entirely shared by the industry.

Jorgo Chatzimarkakis, CEO of Hydrogen Europe, which represents the interests of the industry in 25 EU countries, said the letter is proof that France is “going solo” on nuclear and putting itself in a “dangerous insular position”.

Speaking to EURACTIV Friday (16 september), he denounced France for being stubborn by not making itself “free for the flow of hydrogen, for example from Spain to Germany”.

Industry leaders like Chatzimarkakis are not welcoming France’s current opposition to the MidCat pipeline, which should connect France and Spain but has been kept on hold since 2019. French President Emmanuel Macron recently said that he would consider resuming construction if he were convinced of the pipeline’s usefulness.

France is “not credible for the moment”, the CEO said.


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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Wed 21 Sep 2022, 23:28:58

Hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough is ‘more efficient than diesel engines’

Loop Energy CEO says new cell is ‘another sign to the transport industry that the transition away from fossil fuels must happen now’

Canada-based Loop Energy unveiled its new hydrogen fuel cell at the IAA Transportation 2022 conference in Germany this week, saying it marks “a milestone” for the transport industry’s transition to clean energies.

At current fuel price levels, a commercial truck equipped with the S1200 hydrogen fuel cell could travel 179km (111 miles) with $100 worth of fuel, compared to 175km for a diesel truck with the same amount of fuel.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/hydr ... 71960.html
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 22 Sep 2022, 13:47:09

Shaved Monkey wrote:Hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough is ‘more efficient than diesel engines’

Loop Energy CEO says new cell is ‘another sign to the transport industry that the transition away from fossil fuels must happen now’

Canada-based Loop Energy unveiled its new hydrogen fuel cell at the IAA Transportation 2022 conference in Germany this week, saying it marks “a milestone” for the transport industry’s transition to clean energies.

At current fuel price levels, a commercial truck equipped with the S1200 hydrogen fuel cell could travel 179km (111 miles) with $100 worth of fuel, compared to 175km for a diesel truck with the same amount of fuel.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/hydr ... 71960.html

Yes that is because diesel is twice as high in price as it should be due to Biden's war on fossil fuels. Hydrogen fuel cells may one day become a working solution but unless the hydrogen is generated by nuclear of solar power it will not do anything to save the climate.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 25 Sep 2022, 01:29:57

vtsnowedin wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:Hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough is ‘more efficient than diesel engines’

Loop Energy CEO says new cell is ‘another sign to the transport industry that the transition away from fossil fuels must happen now’

Canada-based Loop Energy unveiled its new hydrogen fuel cell at the IAA Transportation 2022 conference in Germany this week, saying it marks “a milestone” for the transport industry’s transition to clean energies.

At current fuel price levels, a commercial truck equipped with the S1200 hydrogen fuel cell could travel 179km (111 miles) with $100 worth of fuel, compared to 175km for a diesel truck with the same amount of fuel.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/hydr ... 71960.html

Yes that is because diesel is twice as high in price as it should be due to Biden's war on fossil fuels. Hydrogen fuel cells may one day become a working solution but unless the hydrogen is generated by nuclear of solar power it will not do anything to save the climate.

Green Hydrogen (mainly solar some wind) is the long term plan for Australia
Tapping into the existing gas pipelines and supplying Asia ..China Japan Korea and Singapore
Big plants ready to be built in the North East and North West where the Gas export industry already has the infrastrucuture
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 25 Sep 2022, 06:48:43

Anyone know how much electricity it takes to separate enough hydrogen to equal the energy content of a gallon of diesel?
I remember doing the H-tube experiment in chemistry class back in 1972 but if I ever mastered the math beyond getting twice as much hydrogen volume then the oxygen side of the tube I have forgotten it and we did not even measure the drain on the DC battery used.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Wed 28 Sep 2022, 23:32:58

I think we need to look at hydrogen in the similar way we look at at an aluminium smelter.

You put in a smelter on the end of a coal fired power plant,when people need power you slow down the smelting when there's plenty of power you crank it up..... basically because its hard to speed up or slow down a power plant.
Hydrogen will work the same way attached to the end of a few solar and wind farms,you make it and store it when you have excess power.
Seems in Australia and Im sure other parts are similarish, we need more power when people come home from work on a hot day they turn on the AC and the stove to cook dinner and the TV all at once.
The sun is going down the wind may not be blowing
Thats the time to burn some hydrogen or release the storage dams or turn on the batteries...and stop smelting Aluminium
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 29 Sep 2022, 19:03:39

I may be a bit behind the times here but my understanding of the aluminum production process uses mostly cheap Hydro electric power where it is in surplus. So aluminum ore (bauxite)is shipped from the mines in south America to Canada for refining or smelting if you prefer. Having another heat source do the work on a whim of the weather system would probably not be competitive and you would never get the capital to set it up.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sat 01 Oct 2022, 02:16:18

vtsnowedin wrote:I may be a bit behind the times here but my understanding of the aluminum production process uses mostly cheap Hydro electric power where it is in surplus. So aluminum ore (bauxite)is shipped from the mines in south America to Canada for refining or smelting if you prefer. Having another heat source do the work on a whim of the weather system would probably not be competitive and you would never get the capital to set it up.

In Australia its brown coal in Victoria and Black Coal in Qld
They did deals for supper cheap excess power from over sized coal fired plants built for 40 or 50 year time frames

Hydrogen production will be a value added addition to having to require a greater than needed supply of renewables for worst case scenarios. (multiple hot evenings).
If green hydrogen becomes "real/viable" in its own right then more ways of producing it will be explored.

With Qld building the worlds largest pumped hydro to store wind/solar power,the plan is also to convert old coal fired plants to hydrogen the biggest one is the major one with the aluminium smelter attached

Lots of talk about green steel too...using hydrogen

Fortescue Metals Group has become one of the first of Australia’s major industrial operators to commit to fully decarbonise its operations and supply chains, including a shift to coal-free steel processing and hydrogen-fuelled shipping.

In a statement released to the ASX on Tuesday, the iron ore giant said it would adopt a net zero target for its scope-3 emissions, meaning the company would look to slash emissions not just from its own operations, but also the embedded emissions in the products it sells to customers.

Fortescue is one of the world’s largest producers of iron ore and crude steel products – and the third largest in Australia – making it one of Australia’s largest coal users.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/iron-ore-gi ... ro-target/
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 01 Oct 2022, 08:37:45

I've been reading good things about fuel cells working for buses and long haul trucks. In the markets, I am investing in Ballard Power. I'm adding to it a little at a time, so as to take advantage of cheap prices to build my position. The risk of making this investment is somewhat ameliorated by the potential. If it works, the investment is likely to multiply many times over. It could go wrong. Fuel cells might not work out, that is the risk. That's also why I diversify.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 01 Oct 2022, 14:00:23

Shaved Monkey wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:I may be a bit behind the times here but my understanding of the aluminum production process uses mostly cheap Hydro electric power where it is in surplus. So aluminum ore (bauxite)is shipped from the mines in south America to Canada for refining or smelting if you prefer. Having another heat source do the work on a whim of the weather system would probably not be competitive and you would never get the capital to set it up.

In Australia its brown coal in Victoria and Black Coal in Qld
They did deals for supper cheap excess power from over sized coal fired plants built for 40 or 50 year time frames

Hydrogen production will be a value added addition to having to require a greater than needed supply of renewables for worst case scenarios. (multiple hot evenings).
If green hydrogen becomes "real/viable" in its own right then more ways of producing it will be explored.

With Qld building the worlds largest pumped hydro to store wind/solar power,the plan is also to convert old coal fired plants to hydrogen the biggest one is the major one with the aluminium smelter attached

Lots of talk about green steel too...using hydrogen

Fortescue Metals Group has become one of the first of Australia’s major industrial operators to commit to fully decarbonise its operations and supply chains, including a shift to coal-free steel processing and hydrogen-fuelled shipping.

In a statement released to the ASX on Tuesday, the iron ore giant said it would adopt a net zero target for its scope-3 emissions, meaning the company would look to slash emissions not just from its own operations, but also the embedded emissions in the products it sells to customers.

Fortescue is one of the world’s largest producers of iron ore and crude steel products – and the third largest in Australia – making it one of Australia’s largest coal users.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/iron-ore-gi ... ro-target/

Steel without carbon is just pig iron and not useful. Perhaps you are referring to the smokestack emissions and not the actual composition of the finished product?
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 02 Oct 2022, 22:57:16

vtsnowedin wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:I may be a bit behind the times here but my understanding of the aluminum production process uses mostly cheap Hydro electric power where it is in surplus. So aluminum ore (bauxite)is shipped from the mines in south America to Canada for refining or smelting if you prefer. Having another heat source do the work on a whim of the weather system would probably not be competitive and you would never get the capital to set it up.

In Australia its brown coal in Victoria and Black Coal in Qld
They did deals for supper cheap excess power from over sized coal fired plants built for 40 or 50 year time frames

Hydrogen production will be a value added addition to having to require a greater than needed supply of renewables for worst case scenarios. (multiple hot evenings).
If green hydrogen becomes "real/viable" in its own right then more ways of producing it will be explored.

With Qld building the worlds largest pumped hydro to store wind/solar power,the plan is also to convert old coal fired plants to hydrogen the biggest one is the major one with the aluminium smelter attached

Lots of talk about green steel too...using hydrogen

Fortescue Metals Group has become one of the first of Australia’s major industrial operators to commit to fully decarbonise its operations and supply chains, including a shift to coal-free steel processing and hydrogen-fuelled shipping.

In a statement released to the ASX on Tuesday, the iron ore giant said it would adopt a net zero target for its scope-3 emissions, meaning the company would look to slash emissions not just from its own operations, but also the embedded emissions in the products it sells to customers.

Fortescue is one of the world’s largest producers of iron ore and crude steel products – and the third largest in Australia – making it one of Australia’s largest coal users.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/iron-ore-gi ... ro-target/

Steel without carbon is just pig iron and not useful. Perhaps you are referring to the smokestack emissions and not the actual composition of the finished product?


There are two ways.

In one, you replace coal in the furnace with our old friend, green hydrogen. You get steel — but instead of emitting vast clouds of CO2, you produce nothing more than pure water vapour.

To strengthen the steel, you simply add the carbon separately. It bonds into the metal rather than dispersing into the atmosphere. Beautiful.

The other way to make green steel, the more radical approach, is to scrap the blast furnace altogether and just zap the iron ore with renewable electricity.


Fortescue is trialling both methods. We aim to start building Australia's first green steel pilot plant this year, with a commercial plant in the Pilbara, powered entirely by green electricity, from wind and solar in the next few years.

Australia is in an absolutely unique position to scale green steel.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-22/ ... e/13077070
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 03 Oct 2022, 10:27:51

Shaved Monkey wrote:
There are two ways.

In one, you replace coal in the furnace with our old friend, green hydrogen. You get steel — but instead of emitting vast clouds of CO2, you produce nothing more than pure water vapour.

To strengthen the steel, you simply add the carbon separately. It bonds into the metal rather than dispersing into the atmosphere. Beautiful.

The other way to make green steel, the more radical approach, is to scrap the blast furnace altogether and just zap the iron ore with renewable electricity.


Fortescue is trialling both methods. We aim to start building Australia's first green steel pilot plant this year, with a commercial plant in the Pilbara, powered entirely by green electricity, from wind and solar in the next few years.

Australia is in an absolutely unique position to scale green steel.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-22/ ... e/13077070

And what will be the cost per tonne be compared to steel made in China with their current practice?
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Tue 04 Oct 2022, 19:13:14

vtsnowedin wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:
There are two ways.

In one, you replace coal in the furnace with our old friend, green hydrogen. You get steel — but instead of emitting vast clouds of CO2, you produce nothing more than pure water vapour.

To strengthen the steel, you simply add the carbon separately. It bonds into the metal rather than dispersing into the atmosphere. Beautiful.

The other way to make green steel, the more radical approach, is to scrap the blast furnace altogether and just zap the iron ore with renewable electricity.



Fortescue is trialling both methods. We aim to start building Australia's first green steel pilot plant this year, with a commercial plant in the Pilbara, powered entirely by green electricity, from wind and solar in the next few years.

Australia is in an absolutely unique position to scale green steel.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-22/ ... e/13077070

And what will be the cost per tonne be compared to steel made in China with their current practice?

Initially Green steel will be more expensive but it will also command a better price in a niche market at the beginning.

Its more about what the price will be in the future than today....based on what the price of coal will be....then add future carbon prices

The plan is also to convert the Chinese steel mills too eventually

FFI is planning with their Gigafactory electrolyzer to decrease costs by 10 times over 5 years.
So a decade ago, the costs would be prohibitive.
Now, they look like prices will still need to decrease by 2 to 6 times.
But that is across the whole business from start to finish.
Creating free renewable energy, converting energy to hydrogen, improving batteries and engineering of motors. and using them.

https://changediscussion.com/green-stee ... -minerals/
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 04 Oct 2022, 19:45:21

OK get back to me when they can build affordable EVs using green steel.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Wed 05 Oct 2022, 22:18:43

vtsnowedin wrote:OK get back to me when they can build affordable EVs using green steel.

I hope it comes quicker than when we cant afford not to.

More than likely it will be green steel in an ev/hydrogen fuel cell mass people mover first (bus/train/ light rail/ferry).
To socialise the costs and grow the future industry.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 06 Oct 2022, 00:07:27

Shaved Monkey wrote:Green Hydrogen (mainly solar some wind) is the long term plan for Australia


Yes I've read those stories, like the one at Gladstone, that they are going to construct beside the gas pipeline lol. I put them in the same category as the Syd~Mlb fast rail link, or nuclear fusion. Always just 10 years in the future and always will be.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ent-online

http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/Articles ... nia-Desert
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 06 Oct 2022, 01:33:06

theluckycountry wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:Green Hydrogen (mainly solar some wind) is the long term plan for Australia


Yes I've read those stories, like the one at Gladstone, that they are going to construct beside the gas pipeline lol. I put them in the same category as the Syd~Mlb fast rail link, or nuclear fusion. Always just 10 years in the future and always will be.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ent-online

http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/Articles ... nia-Desert

Time and money is all it needs
Plenty of billionaires Companies and Countries are putting time and money into it

Australian hydrogen market study
27 May 2021 4:39pm

A new CEFC market study shows that green hydrogen is approaching cost-competitiveness in several sectors.
Green hydrogen is approaching cost competitiveness for heavy trucking, buses and remote power. It has the potential to become commercially viable across further sectors of transportation as early as 2030.


https://www.energy.gov.au/news-media/ne ... rket-study
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 06 Oct 2022, 09:56:45

Shaved Monkey wrote:To socialise the costs and grow the future industry.

Care to explain how socializing the cost is a sound financial practice?
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 06 Oct 2022, 22:41:37

vtsnowedin wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:To socialise the costs and grow the future industry.

Care to explain how socialising the cost is a sound financial practice?

Just look at Norway to see how it works well

In Australia all our coal fired power plants and wires where initially funded by the public purse some still are.
A lot of the new green infrastructure is also publicly owned
https://www.des.qld.gov.au/climateactio ... ion/energy

I dont see how these projects getting off the ground without government money or legislation that either makes them more attractive to investors.
That might include % quotas for green steel in public transport...or something similar to give the market some certainty in its initial stages.

Im sure other countries can do what they think is fit.
I think Sweden is using the green steel in trucks
https://newatlas.com/materials/ssab-volvo-green-steel/

Some products will be able to absorb the higher cost from the get go....obviously carbon pricing will help
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sat 08 Oct 2022, 16:43:47

A good opportunity to use government legislation that outlaws fossil fuelled car sales to introduce a hydrogen fuel celled vehicle with a super capacitor to fill the void,initially in commercial vehicles.

A little-known company has joined the race between multiple Australian start-ups to mass-produce a zero-emissions ute for commercial buyers.

In 2020, Melbourne-based hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle (FCEV) specialist H2X Global announced its plans to produce the Warrego ute in Port Kembla south of Sydney – and pledged to have a demonstration vehicle ready within months.
Based on the previous-generation Ford Ranger, H2X Global has replaced the donor ute’s diesel engine with a 260kW electric motor and a 60kW hydrogen fuel-cell, packaged into a supercapacitor hybrid system.

Previously seen in the Lamborghini Sian concept, a supercapacitor can be charged and discharged more rapidly than traditional lithium-ion batteries found in most electric cars, while also achieving a longer lifespan.

The electric motor is connected to the Ford Ranger’s standard transfer case, allowing the hydrogen fuel-cell ute to retain all-wheel-drive.

Hydrogen is stored in a tank made from advanced polymer and carbon fibre which is pressurised at up to 700 bar, offering a claimed driving range of up to 450km on a full tank.

H2X Global says the Warrego demonstrates the company’s hydrogen fuel-cell technology, claiming it will produce hydrogen fuel-cell commercial vehicles and taxis by 2025.

“The Warrego is essentially a demonstration vehicle which we can offer to several customers to accelerate the availability of all-wheel-drive light commercial vehicles to customers, using a state-of-the-art hybrid hydrogen fuel-cell system,” said Mr Norman.

“This application will be applied in a more optimised form in the Darling Delivery Van and Taxi/MPV (people-mover) targeted for release to support the large number of European cities which will be closed off from diesel and petrol vehicles from 2025.”
https://www.drive.com.au/news/australia ... anger-ute/



H2X Global is the third Australian start-up to announce plans for a zero-emissions ute, following Roev and Sea Electric – both of which are planning to locally modify electric vehicles based on the top-selling Toyota HiLux.

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