[criticalmass]

"There will be no single silver bullet for the looming crisis but at least there are some credible alternatives nearing industrial scale production." -newbonic

This is the only reason I have hope for avoiding extreme poverty worldwide in a post-oil world.
Now if only we could keep people from using so much and having so many freakin' kids!

This will be outlawed in the next decade:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJufpRZNNRg
Just my prediction.

[newbonic]

Wind Farms blasted by 'clean energy' boss.

Basically, a H2 electrolyser/fuel cell co CEO says:
"Renewable energy without storage offers no energy security solution and little in the way of CO2 reduction. There’s no point in building 20 new wind farms if you have to simultaneously run back-up power stations in parallel to provide electricity in case the wind drops and the turbines don’t turn.

But if you can store the excess energy produced when conditions are good, then you have a real clean energy solution. And this is what you have with hydrogen and it’s the vital link.

Buffer storage of hydrogen allows you to use energy when you need it and it’s central to any power grid system. But politicians and even some advocates of clean power seem to be blind to this.

This is what I've been saying for months, so obviously I agree with him.

[Tanada]

Wind Farms blasted by 'clean energy' boss.

Basically, a H2 electrolyser/fuel cell co CEO says:
"Renewable energy without storage offers no energy security solution and little in the way of CO2 reduction. There’s no point in building 20 new wind farms if you have to simultaneously run back-up power stations in parallel to provide electricity in case the wind drops and the turbines don’t turn.

But if you can store the excess energy produced when conditions are good, then you have a real clean energy solution. And this is what you have with hydrogen and it’s the vital link.

Buffer storage of hydrogen allows you to use energy when you need it and it’s central to any power grid system. But politicians and even some advocates of clean power seem to be blind to this.

This is what I've been saying for months, so obviously I agree with him.

If you are going to do that why not use the H2 as a reactant with CO2 and manufacture Methane? It stores 10 times easier, has greater energy density, and if you are using atmospheric CO2 it is carbon neutral.

[newbonic]

Wind Farms blasted by 'clean energy' boss.

If you are going to do that why not use the H2 as a reactant with CO2 and manufacture Methane? It stores 10 times easier, has greater energy density, and if you are using atmospheric CO2 it is carbon neutral.

Well the molecular weight of CH4 is certainly higher than H2, but I think his point is that the H2 could be burnt the next day at peak times, e.g. generate H2 between 1-6am when the demand is low, and burn at 8pm (or whenever) when it's high.

Routinely generating methane is another step with inevitable losses, and more plant/catalsyts etc.required.

H2 is storable for short periods anyway; the old style 'town gas' generated from coal was up to 50% H, and that's Victorian technology.

[Tanada]

Wind Farms blasted by 'clean energy' boss.

If you are going to do that why not use the H2 as a reactant with CO2 and manufacture Methane? It stores 10 times easier, has greater energy density, and if you are using atmospheric CO2 it is carbon neutral.

Well the molecular weight of CH4 is certainly higher than H2, but I think his point is that the H2 could be burnt the next day at peak times, e.g. generate H2 between 1-6am when the demand is low, and burn at 8pm (or whenever) when it's high.

Routinely generating methane is another step with inevitable losses, and more plant/catalsyts etc.required.

H2 is storable for short periods anyway; the old style 'town gas' generated from coal was up to 50% H, and that's Victorian technology.

If I were designing the system I would not sell the electricity generated by wind at any point, I would use it for electrolysis/Methane production whenever it was availible. The infrastructure to store and use Methane is already in place, no need to do anything complex you just build a methane production facility at each windfarm and tie it into the existing network. You don't have to worry about boom and bust on the electrical grid because the wind energy is always used to create storable product.

Of course I am not designing the system and the people building it will do what they want within the allowable boundries emplaced by the Government.

[mos6507]

If I were designing the system I would not sell the electricity generated by wind at any point, I would use it for electrolysis/Methane production whenever it was availible.

What is the efficiency of converting wind power into compressed H2? And if you convert it back to electricity by burning it in turbines rather than fuel cells, don't those losses really start to add up? Renewables already have problems generating enough electricity for immediate use. So if you want to peak shave, you're going to want to use every last deferred electron. It seems like a technology such as EESTORs or vanadium-redox would be better, something with fewer losses.

[yesplease]

What is the efficiency of converting wind power into compressed H2? And if you convert it back to electricity by burning it in turbines rather than fuel cells, don't those losses really start to add up? Renewables already have problems generating enough electricity for immediate use. So if you want to peak shave, you're going to want to use every last deferred electron. It seems like a technology such as EESTORs or vanadium-redox would be better, something with fewer losses.

For industrial apps ~70-90% in electrolysis and ~40-50% back to electricity in large diesels or suitable turbines. This places the total efficiency at 30-45%, so for class 6 wind power that's 9-13+c/kWh plus the costs of the electrolysis/generating equipment. Probably not competative with baseload, but definitely cheaper than peaker rates... Course, the cheapest investment by far is a negawatt. It's only ~2-8cents/kWh to subsidize efficiency and public awareness stuff. I can't work forever, but I'd guess that the average American could see use a third to a half of the electricity they use w/ little to no loss in functionality or wealth over the long run.

[aahala2]

Wind Farms blasted by 'clean energy' boss.

Basically, a H2 electrolyser/fuel cell co CEO says:
"[i]Renewable energy without storage offers no energy security solution and little in the way of CO2 reduction. There’s no point in building 20 new wind farms if you have to simultaneously run back-up power stations in parallel to provide electricity in case the wind drops and the turbines don’t turn.

I agree with the last sentence. What I don't agree with the implicit claim one must simultaneously run backup power in exact parallel.

First, unless the only source of power is wind, there will be others
in operation. Some of these other sources, like coal and nuclear,
are not so good at large instant upticks in production, but NG
and hydro are. Second, 20 wind farms have a low probablility of
going from a large amount of production to near zero in a short
time frame. This outcome is even less likely to be a surprise,
wind prediction isn't perfect, but it isn't a dark science either.

In the Texas event a few months ago, wind power dropped by
a large percentage(but not really close to 100%) and electrical
demand increased sharped, the hours in question nearly led
to wide spread blackouts.

The impression some may have gotten reading this item, was
that wind was to blame. Well, the surge in demand far outpaced
the drop in wind power. And the direction of both WERE known
by anyone who read the previous day's weather
forecast -- higher temps and lower wind speeds tomorrow.

[Gerben]

As long as we are still using natural gas to make hydrogen and electricity, it's not economic to make methane through wind power. Make hydrogen and sell it to companies that currently use NG to make hydrogen. Or use wind power to drive pumps etc to store energy or use batteries.

[newbonic]

I found the full article on the ITM website, so if you want to read 'from the horses mouth' then its ITM press release (warning 320k PDF!).

My own view is that storage of off peak renewable's output is the key to economic long term power generation, whether it's H2 or some other 'battery'.

On the way to work I pass a factory/research centre that's had 2 huge wind turbines erected onsite. The place is empty at weekends, yet the blades keep turning (I don't know if the turbines are grid connected tho').

[mos6507]

My own view is that storage of off peak renewable's output is the key to economic long term power generation, whether it's H2 or some other 'battery'.

Well, there is EESTOR. We know all about that one.

I still haven't heard a serious technical argument why this technology couldn't work:

http://www.vrbpower.com/

Basically it's like a cross between a battery and a fuel cell. Vanadium sounds like a rare element but there is a lot of it being produced as a byproduct of oil/gas drilling and not a lot of other industrial uses for it.

Unfortunately this is one of a long string a companies that has some promising tech which is just kind of sitting there in the shadows underutilized.

From the FAQ:

"The system provides a roundtrip efficiency of 65 - 75%. Therefore with the input of 25 -35% additional power to cover the losses, you can get 1 hour of discharge for every hour of charge. A practical charge discharge ratio for optimal performance is about 1.8 to 1."

So that's worse than most batteries, but maybe better than hydrogen.

[yesplease]

VRBs are close, at ~5-6c/kWh stored according to VRBPower, but it's too close to call IMO.

[VMarcHart]

This is what I've been saying for months, so obviously I agree with him.

There's nothing new in his statement. "People" have been saying it for years. However, whether you storage wind energy with hydrogen, compressed air, water, whatever, it does not solve the problem of meeting unsatiable always-ready demand with yet one more technology.

What you need at the end is conservation, demand destruction, powerdown, etc. That's how you solve the real problem. My 2 cents.

[mos6507]

What you need at the end is conservation, demand destruction, powerdown, etc. That's how you solve the real problem. My 2 cents.

And of course even that yields diminishing returns without POPULATION reduction.

[VMarcHart]

What you need at the end is conservation, demand destruction, powerdown, etc. That's how you solve the real problem. My 2 cents.

And of course even that yields diminishing returns without POPULATION reduction.

I don't know. I need to think about that. Sorry.

[vtsnowedin]

There is no free energy from the alternator. The voltage regulator adjusts the load to maintain 12+ volts in the system. When you add load by say turning on the headlights the resistance of the magnetic field created by the field coils increases making it harder for the armature to spin inside it. This load has to be overcome by the belt turning the pully. Even at idle the alternator is producing power to run the sparkplugs and the computer ignition plus recharge the battery.
In the recent cold weather as you hook up jumper cables from a idling car to one with a run down battery you can hear the running engine strain as it takes on the load of charging the dead battery. Then you know you have a good connection.

[hho2u]

What I don't understand is why this would be any better than simply using a plug-in electric vehicle. For the average commuter, I mean; I suppose hydrogen might be more convenient for long-distance driving. But for the average Joe schlepping ten miles to work, what's the advantage of this setup over a wall socket?

No advantage. Even available lead acid batteries are as efficient as the fuel cells that are available, figuring that you start with an energy source, either charge a battery or make hydrogen, then either discharge the battery or run the hydrogen through a fuel cell to use the energy later. There are losses in charging and discharging a battery, and similar losses in generating, storing, and running hydrogen through a fuel cell. And fuel cells cost many times (hundreds or thousands of times) more than lead acid batteries. The jury is still out on other newer battery technologies.
I have been hoping that hydrogen, both making it using renewable energy sources, and using it again in fuel cells to use electricity later, would be a viable technology to replace my batteries in my home power system within the next 10 years, but I don't see it happening, not at the rate that they are making progress now.

<br>I am deeply involved in the study and application of Hydrogen on Demand systems as a retro-fit on your "every day driver" car and in the last year or so, because of the outrageous gas prices we endured this summer there has been huge gains in this technology. of course there is a lot of B.S. out there too. You said "at the rate they" are making progress. If you are talking about car makers and Government, I couldn't agree more. "They have been suppressing this technology for too long. Between Big oil companies,car makers and our Government "they" have bought and shelved over 200 fuel saving patents. We need to take this technology to the level it should be and make it available to the public.
LD -- HHO2U.comHydrogen on Demand[s][/s]

[louistran]

ITM Power has a new CEO and aggressive marketing plan so we may seem some of their devices on the market soon.

http://www.smallcapnews.co.uk/article/I ... /7502.aspx

[gnm]

Not if ITM Power has anything to do with it. This British firm, based in Sheffield, thinks that hydrogen is still the fuel of the future. I

HYDROGEN IS NOT A FUEL!

-G

Of course its a fuel, and for some niche applications (space travel comes to mind) its the best fuel. Its often noted that its not an energy source, but we're not exactly running short of energy.

Fine fine... OK, my bad - semantics... IT IS NOT AN ENERGY SOURCE. Hydrazine, H2, etc, are all going to cost you more to create than you can get out of them. And yes, we are running short on energy. If your primary liquid fuel (oil) starts to go into decline, then you are going to be running short on energy. I suppose one could argue that oil is just an energy carrier too, being not much more than concentrated ancient sunlight, but we didn't have to take the systemic losses to create it.

-G

[mos6507]

"They have been suppressing this technology for too long. Between Big oil companies,car makers and our Government "they" have bought and shelved over 200 fuel saving patents. We need to take this technology to the level it should be and make it available to the public.
LD -- HHO2U.comHydrogen on Demand