[SILENTTODD]

I should have been prepared for the bikes comment. Yes, I have bikes, I am biking to work tomorrow. I work at a coal fired power plant that is 4 miles away. But, there are days when riding to work is improbable due to icy, butt cold conditions. So, its not going to happen unless I am forced into it (shortages, etc.).

The reason I brought that up first is because even on a site like this, where the readers are aware of what is going to happen in the future and why, I estimate fewer than 1% would give serious consideration to moving close to their work and ride a bicycle. Let alone actually doing it! I have high praise for you moawdtsi; you are way ahead of the curve!

As far as trading one car in for a more "fuel efficient” one, I have some thoughts on that also having made decisions on car ownership based on that alone for about the last 30 years.

Your Honda Accord is only 2 years old, and gets 20mpg in the city. Is it paid off? How many miles do you drive a year, or could cut yourself down to? A general rule I have always found true, unless is car is a true lemon (and I’ve had one of those), it is always cheaper to keep it running than to go out and buy a new car. Honda’s are very reliable vehicles having owned a 79 Civic for 12 years. What’s the worse that could happen to it? The transmission crap out? (Maybe $1500). The engine blow (maybe $3000 to plug in a remanufactured engine). And I am assuming your not doing the work yourself.

Yeh it only gets 20mpg compared to the Prius’s high 40’s (what my friends at work tell me, nobody backs up the claim of 60mpg). The price I ‘ve seen here in Southern California is in the $20,000+ range. There is high demand. There are no discounts. I'm sure you will find the same where you live. Plus there are much increased registration and insurance costs to be added in.

I don’t how much gas is going for in your area, but I can still buy a lot of it for $20,000! Even if it gets up to $10 an American gallon as it currently is in Scotland. If you kept this vehicle 10 years it would not make up the difference in fuel savings compared to the Honda you now own. And how long do you think it will be before the SHTF with the oil supply? With what I know now, I would not bet 10 years (would be pleasantly surprised if it was!).

My best advice? Keep your Honda and ride your bike as much as possible.

[BigTex]

Hybrid? Now is the time to bend over and kiss your arse goodbye. Because of the obesity epidemic most Americans will have to be blowing their arse a kiss goodbye. Still and all, this is it boys and girls the dull ache becomes a persistent pain very soon. Don't be too sad. Dreams may die, but dreamers are forever young. God wins in the end.

Gandalf, I have read several of your posts from this evening, and I think you might want to just go on to bed.

Unless you know me personally or are trying to convey a threat (which I will state for the record I would report to the FBI) I don't have to go to bed. Nanannananana!

BigTex, is that like Big Texas Toast? Cause toast is what the economy is going to look like and taste like in about four months. At least allow a person to grieve in their own annoying fashion.

;-!

Hope you don't feel too bad this morning.

And yes, BigTex is short for Big Texas Toast. You've broken the code.

[KillTheHumans]

Hybrid? Now is the time to bend over and kiss your arse goodbye. Because of the obesity epidemic most Americans will have to be blowing their arse a kiss goodbye. .

People been saying this since this website started, and its taken 3 years for peak oil to get a lending crisis started to kick off a decent recession. Give it a rest, if we all stopped our lives because of Doomer silliness we STILL couldn't kick off the Doom that some people have been cheerleading since the LAST time we were supposed to be running out of oil.

[KillTheHumans]

The reason I brought that up first is because even on a site like this, where the readers are aware of what is going to happen in the future and why, I estimate fewer than 1% would give serious consideration to moving close to their work and ride a bicycle. Let alone actually doing it! I have high praise for you moawdtsi; you are way ahead of the curve!

What about the hordes of us who already ARE within walking and bicycling distance from work? ( I'm both, and surrounded by others of the same ilk ). Not everyone in the US is as silly as the standard "drive till you qualify" Californian.

My best advice? Keep your Honda and ride your bike as much as possible.

Motorbikes are the way to go!!! 50+ mpg, I can snare a used one for <$2000, and my last one went some 20 years as a day in and day out commuter.

[burnfromwithin]

First of all, your Accord is getting bad gas mileage because its cold and it is making short trips. The engine takes a decent time to warm up and will burn a lot of gas initially. If you were to make 15 mile trips, I'm nearly certain your gas mileage would be better. But I understand that in the cold sometimes you just can't walk/bike (trust me!).

That being said, you mentioned that you do walk and bike to work when its convenient. If this is the case, it should cut down your driving significantly. Instead of just looking at MPG, look at how many miles you put on your car in a year. I've looked at the hybrids, and it seems that they only pay off if you do a moderate or high amount of driving (10k+ miles/year). If you drive less than that, the extra cost of a hybrid is not worth it and you may never recoup the 'hybrid surcharge' you paid by buying a hybrid instead of a regular compact*.

For my decision on what to do for a car, it turns out that I don't drive nearly enough (probably 6k/year), so I'm much better going with a compact. That may be different for you. But do yourself a favor and crunch some number.

*this, of course, depends on the price of gas. How one determines the future costs of gasoline is a matter of personal preference and may change your results.

[SILENTTODD]

What about the hordes of us who already ARE within walking and bicycling distance from work? ( I'm both, and surrounded by others of the same ilk ). Not everyone in the US is as silly as the standard "drive till you qualify" Californian.

I wish I could say in my travels in the Mid West and South of the United States I saw something that said this was true. Maybe to a small degree Chicago, but Atlanta, Dallas, Houston? Surely you jest! And I know in the rest of the country it's popular to disparage (or envy) California, but I saw an article in the L.A. Times last year, we didn’t even make the top ten among states for “per capita” miles driven in a car.

Motorbikes are the way to go!!! 50+ mpg, I can snare a used one for <$2000, and my last one went some 20 years as a day in and day out commuter.

This is an excellent suggestion as far as mpg verses the price of vehicle, but you got to remember the reason moawdtsi wasn't riding his bicycle everyday was because it got too damn cold some days where he lived. This is a valid objection for the time being. But having ridden a motorcycle regularly years ago, I can tell you riding a motor bike is even less comfortable than a bicycle when it’s below freezing. One might try silk and poly type thermals but I found them of only limited effectiveness even when the temperature was only in the 20's F. You're creating your own wind chill riding a motor bike with out the warming effect of cranking your bicycle.

[patience]

If the bottom line to make or break the car trade is MONEY, then first look at what you could do with some investment in other areas to make the best return on your money. Something like better home insulation, or a more economical heating system might give a better return.

Be careful not to fall into the panic-trade pitfall, which I saw in the 1974 OPEC Embargo period. Some people back then traded off a one year old big car (18 mpg) for a small car (26 mpg) at a 50% loss in value, because, they said, "I might not be able to get enough gas to go to work." They didn't consider that the job might not be there anyway.

I would go for a trade if it did two things: 1) reduced my debt, AND 2) cost me less to drive on a life cycle basis. I agree, the cheapest car you can own is most likely the one you have, if it's paid for.

[KillTheHumans]

Motorbikes are the way to go!!! 50+ mpg, I can snare a used one for <$2000, and my last one went some 20 years as a day in and day out commuter.

This is an excellent suggestion as far as mpg verses the price of vehicle, but you got to remember the reason moawdtsi wasn't riding his bicycle everyday was because it got too damn cold some days where he lived.

It can occasionally get cold. For the past week it's been about 25F when I left for work. On a motorcycle. I would say that for perhaps 3 months of the year I find it better to take the hybrid, but I could cut that to two if I really wanted to.

This is a valid objection for the time being. But having ridden a motorcycle regularly years ago, I can tell you riding a motor bike is even less comfortable than a bicycle when it’s below freezing. One might try silk and poly type thermals but I found them of only limited effectiveness even when the temperature was only in the 20's F. You're creating your own wind chill riding a motor bike with out the warming effect of cranking your bicycle.

Yup. Mine has a decent windshield mounted on the handlebar, and its air cooled, so I can catch some warmth off the motor on chilly mornings. But with a helment, jacket and gloves, I'm good for a 15 mile commute in 15-25F temperatures. Same jacket, helment and gloves I would use in 100F temperatures of course, so its not as though its weird wearing them when its cold out.

I think motorbikes are underappreciated. Scooters are another one of those solutions which everyone ignores, and can save us oil for decades to come.

[Pablo2079]

I find it interesting how people are considering what kind of car they're going to commute to work in when everything goes to hell. Are these jobs you are commuting to immune from the coming (present?) downturn in the economy?

I've been making efficiency changes at home, but the only changes I've made with my car is how much I drive and how I drive (more slow lane driving).

[basil_hayden]

4 miles to work? 40 miles to work per week?

I'd get a Hummer in a heartbeat.

File this under non-issue.

[dinopello]

4 miles to work? 40 miles to work per week?

I'd get a Hummer in a heartbeat.

File this under non-issue.

Maybe it's 100 miles to the nearest grocery store ?

I agree, if you don't need to drive much it doesn't matter much what you drive. I'd get a reliable pickup truck. Regardless, I'd stay away from the hybrid as well due to the reasons already mentioned.

Pablo says:

I find it interesting how people are considering what kind of car they're going to commute to work in when everything goes to hell. Are these jobs you are commuting to immune from the coming (present?) downturn in the economy?

Well, the OP says he works at a coal plant - I think his job is pretty safe.

[moawdtsi]

Well, I ended up getting rid of the accord and purchased a slightly used corolla with a 5-speed tranny, good for hopefully around 30 mpg in the city and 40 on the highway. Gas was anywhere from $3.39 to $3.71 per gallon for regular in Chicago where I picked it up.

I have all the tools to repair this thing if need be, from previous car projects (I am past the stage of wanting to be covered in grease from head to toe from working on cars). I'll just need to get a factory service manual for all the specifics.

[KillTheHumans]

Well, I ended up getting rid of the accord and purchased a slightly used corolla with a 5-speed tranny, good for hopefully around 30 mpg in the city and 40 on the highway. Gas was anywhere from $3.39 to $3.71 per gallon for regular in Chicago where I picked it up.

Good for you. Preparing for a pricier gasoline future, spending money in the economy, helping to prop it up, contributing towards a consistent decrease in American gasoline consumption, you sir, are part of the solution!!

I filled up my hybrid today, some 7 gallons of gasoline for another 2 weeks of commuting. The inhumanity!!

I would be forced to admit that in the purchase of another car though, I would do similar to what you have done. The initial investment involved in purchasing a hybrid just isn't made up for by decreased operating costs.

[eastbay]

Well, I ended up getting rid of the accord and purchased a slightly used corolla with a 5-speed tranny, good for hopefully around 30 mpg in the city and 40 on the highway. Gas was anywhere from $3.39 to $3.71 per gallon for regular in Chicago where I picked it up.

I filled up my hybrid today, some 7 gallons of gasoline for another 2 weeks of commuting. The inhumanity!!

Funny. Back in the 90's when I was commuting 100 miles a day, and when gas was about $1.00/gallon, I was igniting 8 gallons/day in the Dodge 4X4 without a care in the world. My wife was using another three gallons. Eleven gallons/day total. Just commuting to work. My, what a difference a decade makes!

[Toscano]

6 cylinder car = 19 or 20 mpg in city driving.

4 cylinder car = 26-28 mpg in city driving. Reduce your cylinders and mileage goes up. Pretty simple concept.

[Rabbit]

Last year I was considering the same question. I was thinking of getting a prius too. I looked at the millage and people that drive them easy are getting around 50 mpg. The other car I was looking at was a Yarris. The Prius was $25 K and the Yarris was $14K. Even if gas was figured at 10$ per gallon the Yarris worked out to be a better deal over the life of the car.

I sold my motorhome and off road toys and paid cash for the Yarris. I drive it easy and am averaging 40+ MPG (most of my driving is around town)

I live close to work (6 miles) and am riding my bike to work once or twice a week. I am seriously considering the purchase of an electric scooter. These things cost under $1,000 and will go 20-30 miles on a charge. Some models will go as fast as 45mph. You plug them in at night to recharge.

[AbbieT]

If it was me, I'd by a cheap used 4cly subcompact. They get almost as good of gas mileage as the hybrids and then you can wait for a better technology like plugin/hybrids to come to market!

[TommyJefferson]

Well, I ended up getting rid of the accord and purchased a slightly used corolla with a 5-speed tranny, good for hopefully around 30 mpg in the city and 40 on the highway.

Wise move. Better MPG. Good parts availability. Avoided the initial depreciation hit of buying new.

Service manuals for virtually all popular cars are available for free in .pdf from the enthusiast sites. I have them for my three Hondas and BMW.

[mceajc]

Something else to consider:

About 1/3 of the energy cost of a vehicle is in it's production. In many (or most) cases, it is more efficient to keep an old vehicle on the road than to buy a newer, more efficient vehicle.

Obviously, you are likely to miss out on some creature comforts and more modern safety features, but you can get second hand BMW's and Merc's which have great safety features, and for less money than a new car.

Also, more complex = more energy to manufacture + more to go wrong. Simpler is better, more reliable. If you forgo some of the comfort factors - electric windows, electric seats, air conditioning, power steering, and so forth, efficiency climbs because the engine has less to do, and the car is lighter, too.

And a question: Why are seats so heavy? Surely we can do better!

Regards,

Andrew J Cochran

[TreeFarmer]

mceajc asked "And a question: Why are seats so heavy? Surely we can do better!"

All you have to do is look back at the 1970's Datsuns (Nissans). The seats in those vehicles had very little padding and your butt knew it after a long trip!

TF