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The Hadza

The Hadza

Unread postby frankthetank » Fri 27 Nov 2009, 20:49:47

I think some of you will really enjoy this article in the current months issue of National Geographic magazine. I just sat down and read it and was really impressed that a group of people, right now, are living this lifestyle. It looks like their run may be about done.

The Hadza
They grow no food, raise no livestock, and live without rules or calendars. They are living a hunter-gatherer existence that is little changed from 10,000 years ago. What do
they know that we've forgotten?


http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/ ... inkel-text

...
At first, it was clear that everyone in camp—about two dozen Hadza, ranging from infants to grandparents—felt uncomfortable with my presence. There was a lot of staring, some nervous laughs. I'd brought along a photo album, and passing it around helped mitigate the awkwardness. Onwas was interested in a picture of my cat. "How does it taste?" he asked. One photo captured everyone's attention. It was of me participating in a New Year's Day polar bear swim, leaping into a hole cut in a frozen lake. Hadza hunters can seem fearless; Onwas regularly sneaks up on leopards and races after giraffes. But the idea of winter weather terrified him. He ran around camp with the picture, telling everyone I was a brave man, and this helped greatly with my acceptance. A man who can leap into ice, Onwas must have figured, is certainly a man who'd have no trouble facing a wild baboon. So on the third night of my stay, he asks if I want to join the hunting trip.


...

I am also invited to bathe with the men. We walk to a shallow, muddy hole—more of a large puddle, with lumps of cow manure bobbing about—and remove our clothes. Handfuls of mud are rubbed against the skin as an exfoliant, and we splash ourselves clean. While Hadza have a word for body odor, the men tell me that they prefer their women not to bathe—the longer they go between baths, they say, the more attractive they are. Nduku, my Hadza language teacher, said she sometimes waits months between baths, though she can't understand why her husband wants her that way. I also discover, by listening to Mille and Onwas, that bickering with one's spouse is probably a universal human trait. "Isn't it your turn to fetch water?" "Why are you napping instead of hunting?" "Can you explain why the last animal brought to camp was skinned so poorly?" It occurs to me that these same arguments, in this same valley, have been taking place for thousands of years.


...

There are things I envy about the Hadza—mostly, how free they appear to be. Free from possessions. Free of most social duties. Free from religious strictures. Free of many family responsibilities. Free from schedules, jobs, bosses, bills, traffic, taxes, laws, news, and money. Free from worry. Free to burp and fart without apology, to grab food and smoke and run shirtless through the thorns.


farming vs hunting/gathering... i guess you could say some people do a little of both? i know a few people that probably get a good portion of their meat from the woods/lakes/rivers...plus pick mushrooms, berries, out of the woods.
lawns should be outlawed.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 27 Nov 2009, 21:21:38

A few million folks are trying to hang on to their way of life.

http://www.survivalinternational.org/
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 00:53:34

I liked the article, though a bit more on their connection with other tribes/language families would have been nice.

I did wonder what affect the author living with them would have on their culture.

As I have said elsewhere, if we have to have drastic population reduction, by rights and for the most hopeful of futures, these types of folks should be the survivors or the last to go.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Lore » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 10:32:36

frankthetank wrote:
There are things I envy about the Hadza—mostly, how free they appear to be. Free from possessions. Free of most social duties. Free from religious strictures. Free of many family responsibilities. Free from schedules, jobs, bosses, bills, traffic, taxes, laws, news, and money. Free from worry. Free to burp and fart without apology, to grab food and smoke and run shirtless through the thorns.


farming vs hunting/gathering... i guess you could say some people do a little of both? i know a few people that probably get a good portion of their meat from the woods/lakes/rivers...plus pick mushrooms, berries, out of the woods.


Unfortunately a rare anachronistic snapshot of a disappearing life style, doomed to fail, never to be reproduced.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 10:44:41

Lore wrote:
frankthetank wrote:
There are things I envy about the Hadza—mostly, how free they appear to be. Free from possessions. Free of most social duties. Free from religious strictures. Free of many family responsibilities. Free from schedules, jobs, bosses, bills, traffic, taxes, laws, news, and money. Free from worry. Free to burp and fart without apology, to grab food and smoke and run shirtless through the thorns.


farming vs hunting/gathering... i guess you could say some people do a little of both? i know a few people that probably get a good portion of their meat from the woods/lakes/rivers...plus pick mushrooms, berries, out of the woods.


Unfortunately a rare anachronistic snapshot of a disappearing life style, doomed to fail, never to be reproduced.


Judging by your icon and your words; you watch too much TV and believe too much of what you see on it.

I work among the most remote aboriginal people in Australia. There is massive social displacement; heaps of unsurmountable problems which were created when the modern society inderdicted here. BUT There is still a very strong culture here, extremely low population of humans, massive wilderness full of food plants and animals as well as medicines. The current tribe I work for (Murin Patha) have retained a pure language with virtually no creolization or pidginization. Today I had wild bush plums for breakfast and wild magpie goose for dinner.

Your attitude is sour grapes. This life is still available to those willing to sacrifice what they have to get it.


http://www.maplandia.com/australia/nort ... ort-keats/

Edited to add map of my current workplace.
Last edited by SeaGypsy on Sun 29 Nov 2009, 10:55:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 10:54:48

SeaGypsy wrote:Your attitude is sour grapes. This life is still available to those willing to sacrifice what they have to get it.



The attitude seems to be, "their way of life is doomed, therefore we don't need to care to help them preserve it, or simply leave them alone to live the way they choose."

These people apparently have to make way for "the people of the future" who apparently are more important than these people who currently exist. :|

http://peakoil.com/geopolitics/how-do-t ... 41-60.html
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:00:09

the people here refuse to comply with any semblance of normalcy by western standards after 100 years of colonialization. They see us as a temporary fixture, a bit of an oddity, which will only be around for a little while.
They still have the skills to live here and their own language; many speak almost no English and many more refuse to speak it. "We been here forever, you got here yesterday and tomorrow you'll be gone."
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, imperialist.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:02:14

SeaGypsy wrote:the people here refuse to comply with any semblance of normalcy by western standards after 100 years of colonialization. They see us as a temporary fixture, a bit of an oddity, which will only be around for a little while.



And they're probably right. They are amazingly adaptive peoples (40,000 years! 8O ) - our culture is not likely to prove adaptive.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Lore » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:07:21

SeaGypsy wrote:Judging by your icon and your words; you watch too much TV and believe too much of what you see on it.

I work among the most remote aboriginal people in Australia. There is massive social displacement; heaps of unsurmountable problems which were created when the modern society inderdicted here. BUT There is still a very strong culture here, extremely low population of humans, massive wilderness full of food plants and animals as well as medicines. The current tribe I work for (Murin Patha) have retained a pure language with virtually no creolization or pidginization. Today I had wild bush plums for breakfast and wild magpie goose for dinner.

Your attitude is sour grapes. This life is still available to those willing to sacrifice what they have to get it.


The only TV I watch is the news and the only reason these cultures exist today is because they live in a protected vacuum, for now, by the people and forces that will ultimately lead to their demise. There is historical precedence of this too.

I really doubt it will be possible to find much of either wild bush plums or wild magpie goose for dinner in the not too distant future. As climate and energy become a toss up for the existence of the so called civilized world these unfortunates will most certainly be on the list for round two of the Sixth Extinction.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:10:03

Actually the last figure is 60,000 years. When I was a kid here in the 70's they used to tell us 25,000 years. The fact is nobody really knows how long these people have been here and every time a serious dig goes on the number goes up. It's pretty broadly accepted that languages like Murin Patha are the oldest surviving languages in the world.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:11:43

SeaGypsy wrote:Actually the last figure is 60,000 years.



I reckon they've been through an "extinction event" or two.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:13:44

Now that's just plain pessimistic lore. Look at the map I just provided. Zoom in and out and look at the surrounding 1000 miles in any direction; especially along the coast. Do you think there's enough oil left to turn all that wilderness to ashes? I Don't.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:25:27

Ludi wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:Actually the last figure is 60,000 years.



I reckon they've been through an "extinction event" or two.



Mega fires. They learned controlled burning.

Inbreeding. They developed the most carefull breeding techniques in the known world.

Famine. They learned to control their numbers and move with the seasons.

Disease. They developed an immune system capable of a life expectancy of 72 years BEFORE we got here.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Lore » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:32:18

SeaGypsy wrote:Now that's just plain pessimistic lore. Look at the map I just provided. Zoom in and out and look at the surrounding 1000 miles in any direction; especially along the coast. Do you think there's enough oil left to turn all that wilderness to ashes? I Don't.


Yes, and then some; It's happening now. Australia is already one of driest inhabited continents on the planet.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 11:41:43

Lore wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:Now that's just plain pessimistic lore. Look at the map I just provided. Zoom in and out and look at the surrounding 1000 miles in any direction; especially along the coast. Do you think there's enough oil left to turn all that wilderness to ashes? I Don't.


Yes, and then some; It's happening now. Australia is already one of driest inhabited continents on the planet.


You are just spouting cliche's.

Draw a line on the map of Australia from Cooktown (the northernmost white town on the east coast) to Geralton (300 miles north of Perth on the west coast). North of that line is more than half of Australia's land mass and guess how many people? Less than 300,000. This includes Darwin, the Northern Territory Capital with 125,000 people; the biggest town in this half of Australia. A lot of people think they know a lot about Australia who really know nothing except what they see in what passes for "news".

As for oil and it's role in screwing up what's left of the earth, if you think there's that much left why worry about peak oil? Join the wilderness society or green left coalition for peace?
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Lore » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 12:00:49

SeaGypsy wrote:
Lore wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:Now that's just plain pessimistic lore. Look at the map I just provided. Zoom in and out and look at the surrounding 1000 miles in any direction; especially along the coast. Do you think there's enough oil left to turn all that wilderness to ashes? I Don't.


Yes, and then some; It's happening now. Australia is already one of driest inhabited continents on the planet.


You are just spouting cliche's.

Draw a line on the map of Australia from Cooktown (the northernmost white town on the east coast) to Geralton (300 miles north of Perth on the west coast). North of that line is more than half of Australia's land mass and guess how many people? Less than 300,000. This includes Darwin, the Northern Territory Capital with 125,000 people; the biggest town in this half of Australia. A lot of people think they know a lot about Australia who really know nothing except what they see in what passes for "news".

As for oil and it's role in screwing up what's left of the earth, if you think there's that much left why worry about peak oil? Join the wilderness society or green left coalition for peace?


There is nothing cliché about what’s happening to the planet. Unprecedented climate change will affect everyone, everywhere, and especially those at the marginal line of existence. Isolation means little when your environment is no longer able to sustain you. It’s naïve to believe that just because populations were able to live under difficult conditions in the past, which amounts to a brief slice of human history, it does not mean they will be able to do the same under more extreme conditions in the future.

We have already screwed up what's left of the earth. Any more carbon that gets pumped into the atmosphere now is just icing on the cake. So its rather pointless to join the coalition of the concerned for doing anything about it. The coaliton of the BAU crowd will almost make this a certainty. I'll paraphrase Lovelock in that it's better to preach acceptance and make the best of the time we have left.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 12:16:01

Lore; you may be correct in some regards. A lot depends how exactly the crash happens. The carbonification of the seas is more of a worry than sea level rise when we are talking about survival of the planet as a whole. For utter destruction of calcifying species we would heve to continue carbonisation for a very considerable time yet. If society as we know it falls to bit because of the total energy equation and bad planning; our carbonisation of the planet could be rapidly and drasticly reduced.

When you say we have already destroyed the earth you are just plain wrong. If you were where I am and came for a wander aound here I can show you absolute utter natural abundance all around and no sign of humans ever having been here; within walking distance of the town i work in (Which is the biggest aboriginal community in Australia with a population of 2,700).

We humans have a tendency to think collectively. We are constantly being brainwashed by someone or other.
The bottomless negativity you seem addicted to is designed to keep you living in a box somewhere buying more 'things'. Whether you are complying with the design and satiating yourself and the marketing companies is besides the point. I refuse to buy into Lovelock's view or anyone elses. I live where I find I am happy and I work in a way and in a field which interests me and keeps me alert to the everyday reality of life 'on the edge'. I find the attitudes you are espousing intnsely boring, to be honest, and I feel sorry for you being so miserable.
Every day people are dying and being born, every day life is changing.
Anything can happen.
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Lore » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 12:26:24

SeaGypsy wrote:Lore; you may be correct in some regards. A lot depends how exactly the crash happens. The carbonification of the seas is more of a worry than sea level rise when we are talking about survival of the planet as a whole. For utter destruction of calcifying species we would heve to continue carbonisation for a very considerable time yet. If society as we know it falls to bit because of the total energy equation and bad planning; our carbonisation of the planet could be rapidly and drasticly reduced.

When you say we have already destroyed the earth you are just plain wrong. If you were where I am and came for a wander aound here I can show you absolute utter natural abundance all around and no sign of humans ever having been here; within walking distance of the town i work in (Which is the biggest aboriginal community in Australia with a population of 2,700).

We humans have a tendency to think collectively. We are constantly being brainwashed by someone or other.
The bottomless negativity you seem addicted to is designed to keep you living in a box somewhere buying more 'things'. Whether you are complying with the design and satiating yourself and the marketing companies is besides the point. I refuse to buy into Lovelock's view or anyone elses. I live where I find I am happy and I work in a way and in a field which interests me and keeps me alert to the everyday reality of life 'on the edge'. I find the attitudes you are espousing intnsely boring, to be honest, and I feel sorry for you being so miserable.
Every day people are dying and being born, every day life is changing.
Anything can happen.



I wish too, that flowers would bloom all year round and puppy dogs would jump in my lap, but being realistic is far more improtant to me. And don't feel sorry for me, I live a very happy and productive life. I'm sorry that you're bored but you really cannot be liberated until you come to terms with the truth.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 12:29:29

Ok you are a happy negative ponce with dreams of being 7 again; must be nice being so snuggly warm in the "truth"
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Re: The Hadza

Unread postby Lore » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 12:39:58

SeaGypsy wrote:Ok you are a happy negative ponce with dreams of being 7 again; must be nice being so snuggly warm in the "truth"


I fail to see where negativity comes into this? No more then it's negative to live or die. It is what it is, you can be happy with it or you rail against it. You seem to be a very frustrated person in trying to attempt the latter.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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