[careinke]

When I look at what we know about the ice ages coming and going without any input from mankind over a half million years and the fact that the last retreat of the ice was just ten thousand years or so ago so can we be sure the current retreat is something we have caused or just nature finishing what it started ten thousand years ago?

Well there is a theory, backed by lots of evidence, that the Great Flood, described in numerous cultures and religions happened about 2,000 years before the last Ice age ended, around 10,000 years BC. Cause being Large meteor strikes into the two mile deep Northern Ice Cap, stretching from British Colombia to the European mainland Therefore no craters).

I don't see any reason why your proposal has to be an Either/Or one. Perhaps it is both? But I would bet it is slanted towards green house gases at the moment. Unfortunately with the current keynesian Economic System, which requires continual growth to function, I see no hope of fixing the problem. Instead we will enslave more people to serve the rich and politicians.

Peace

[vtsnowedin]

I do not see capitalist economies as enslaving anyone. Feel free to differ.

I don't see any reason why your proposal has to be an Either/Or one.

Nor do I.

Well there is a theory, backed by lots of evidence, that the Great Flood, described in numerous cultures and religions happened about 2,000 years before the last Ice age ended, around 10,000 years BC. Cause being Large meteor strikes into the two mile deep Northern Ice Cap, stretching from British Colombia to the European mainland Therefore no craters).

I find the more plausible theory is rising sea level from the retreating icecap melt broke through the strait at Istanbul and flooded what had been a fertile plain that is now under the Black sea.
Less dramatic with no off planet influence. Occam's razor sort of thing.

[Newfie]

When I look at what we know about the ice ages coming and going without any input from mankind over a half million years and the fact that the last retreat of the ice was just ten thousand years or so ago so can we be sure the current retreat is something we have caused or just nature finishing what it started ten thousand years ago?

It is pretty darn clear that we do know. We can see the cause and effect. This really is not something that is in doubt in the scientific community.

[ROCKMAN]

care - That was the point of my post. It seems obvious to me that both factors have played a role. I've stood on the Columbia Ice Sheet and seen firsthand the markers showing the retreat that began in the 1800's. So unless the Canadians are lying some natural changes began long ago. And as far as the CIS goes it was rather significant. Which is why I suspect some climate change advocates avoid the subject.

[yellowcanoe]

care - That was the point of my post. It seems obvious to me that both factors have played a role. I've stood on the Columbia Ice Sheet and seen firsthand the markers showing the retreat that began in the 1800's. So unless the Canadians are lying some natural changes began long ago. And as far as the CIS goes it was rather significant. Which is why I suspect some climate change advocates avoid the subject.

Yes, indeed. Early travelers in that area found that the glacier ran all the way across the valley. Travelling across the glacier by horse would have been hazardous so a trail was established through the hills east of the valley to circumvent the glacier. The Wilcox Pass trail still exists today and provides good views of the Athabasca Glacier and Columbia ice field.

Glaciers have been shrinking and the permafrost line retreating north since the end of the last ice age. It's just that with increasing amounts of carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere thanks to human induced emissions, the process is happening at an accelerated rate. The first time I saw the Athabasca Glacier was in 1987 and the most recent time was in 2021. It's quite shocking how far it has retreated in that time period!

[careinke]

I do not see capitalist economies as enslaving anyone. Feel free to differ.

Hmm, I don't believe I mentioned Capitalism.

You are confusing Capitalism with our Keynesian Economic System, a common mistake for the underinformed. I blame education system for this lack of knowledge, and believe it is deliberate.

Capitalism is universal in the human race, it's part of what we are and does not depend on any particular economic system.

Peace

[vtsnowedin]

I do not see capitalist economies as enslaving anyone. Feel free to differ.

Hmm, I don't believe I mentioned Capitalism.

You are confusing Capitalism with our Keynesian Economic System, a common mistake for the underinformed. I blame education system for this lack of knowledge, and believe it is deliberate.

Capitalism is universal in the human race, it's part of what we are and does not depend on any particular economic system.

Peace

I see you as the one that is misinformed. Capitalism is our economic system and Keynesian Economics is just theories about how it works and what causes recessions or inflation and what the government can do to regulate both.
Capitalism is not universal as socialism is it's opposite and billions are enslaved around the world under it.

[AdamB]

When I look at what we know about the ice ages coming and going without any input from mankind over a half million years and the fact that the last retreat of the ice was just ten thousand years or so ago so can we be sure the current retreat is something we have caused or just nature finishing what it started ten thousand years ago?

One of the old angles I've noticed, years ago now, is that the world is supposed to be ending the current interglacial, as opposed to current temperatures that appear to be going in the opposite direction. Haven't heard that angle in awhile though. Haven't gone looking for much climate related in years. Don't even know what the "deniers" are being accused of at this point.

[AdamB]

care - That was the point of my post. It seems obvious to me that both factors have played a role. I've stood on the Columbia Ice Sheet and seen firsthand the markers showing the retreat that began in the 1800's.

Where at Rock? I took my walk along the path of marked retreating ice north of Lake Louise along the icefields parkway. One of the best drives in North America.

[ROCKMAN]

Adam - Standing on the looking down at the highway/travel center. Big signs on the other side of highway. I'll see if I can find a picture on the net.

Again, doesn't disprove manmade climate change. But may indicate that reducing GHG alone may not completely stop climate change...just slow it up some. Ma Nature has her own plan.

[ROCKMAN]

Is the Columbia Icefield receding?
Within the Columbia Icefield lies the Athabasca Glacier, the most visited glacier in North America. Along the pathway from the parking lot to the toe of the glacier stone markers indicate the glacier has receded about 2 km since 1750 (Bailey and Van Tighem, 1987).Sep 15, 2020

[yellowcanoe]

Is the Columbia Icefield receding?
Within the Columbia Icefield lies the Athabasca Glacier, the most visited glacier in North America. Along the pathway from the parking lot to the toe of the glacier stone markers indicate the glacier has receded about 2 km since 1750 (Bailey and Van Tighem, 1987).Sep 15, 2020

I cannot find evidence that the Columbia Icefield is shrinking, however if the Athabasca and Saskatchewan glaciers continue to recede at rapid rate this will inevitably start to eat into the volume of the ice field itself. We'll be driving out to Western Canada and the Yukon next summer so perhaps we'll have a chance to see the Athabasca glacier again.

[ROCKMAN]

yellow: Here are some details from the reference I posted above that will clear up the details for you.

"Six large outlet glaciers flow from the Columbia IceField. They are the Athabasca, Castleguard, Columbia, Dome, Saskatchewan and Stutfield Glaciers. Through these glaciers fresh water flows from the Columbia Icefield into three different oceans namely the Atlantic, the Pacific and the Arctic. This situation is referred to as the "hydrographic apex of North America," basically the center of water distribution in North America."

"At present the Earth appears to be in a warming period as evidenced by ice masses, such as the Columbia Icefield, and their outlet glaciers melting back. Much has been written about this melt back being caused or exacerbated by various human activities, which may or may not be the case. What is known is that the Canadian Rockies have experienced several ice advancements and retreats and the present period of melt back covers a relatively short time span when compared to the last quarter of a million years."

This glacier (Athabasca) can be easily observed from Canadian Highway 93 and specialized buses take tourists out onto the glacier from the Icefield Centre. Investigations of its terminal, recessional and lateral moraines have recorded the movement of the glacier over the past few centuries. The glacier has advanced and retreated several times during this period. Historical records, maps, and photographs dating back to 1897 show that over the last 125 years the glacier has retreated about .93 miles (1.5 km). In 1870, the glacier was about 1.5 times its present total volume and 2.5 times its area."

All this from (http://employees.oneonta.edu/baumanpr/g ... t_down.htm)
All this and many pages of more details. Probably more than most here can absorb. LOL. But again, it highlights how no relatively simple earth warming model can capture the true complexity of what is happening.

[Newfie]

Adam - Standing on the looking down at the highway/travel center. Big signs on the other side of highway. I'll see if I can find a picture on the net.

Again, doesn't disprove manmade climate change. But may indicate that reducing GHG alone may not completely stop climate change...just slow it up some. Ma Nature has her own plan.

Rock,

Allowing that is correct, slowing the change by removing our input would still remain beneficial, no?

I get Mother Nature does her thing, but that “thing” has evolved over many millions of years to some form of self correcting mechanism. We are now mucking around with that mechanism in many, many ways. Simple deforestation alone, which has been massive, is significant. We have also drastically changed the ocean fauna and I believe we have very little understanding of what that does.

Basically I advocate living lightly upon Earth, not interfering with natural processes.

And that is where I get into arguments with CC deniers, they generally seem to think humankind is incapable of altering Earths balances, we are too small an interference. I believe that is incorrect.

[ROCKMAN]

So true. Man can out do Nature sometimes. Not always a good thing sometimes

[Newfie]

Rock,

Any chance you could pop over to the Russian Oil Export thread and explain the consequences of NOT moving oil through northern pipe lines, if any. I have heard some blather about how bad that is for infrastructure but would appreciate your opinion.

Thanks

russia-oil-export-discussion-thread-t24825-260.html

[ROCKMAN]

Newfie - Looked and I didn't see much about oil movement thru pipelines.

But there are some generalities (IOW not always true). Completely shutting down flow can be very detrimental on a number of levels. When temps are below freezing some minimum flow volume must be maintained. If a frozen plug develops in takes much more then increasing flow rate because it obviously can't get by plug. But the process is much more complex than a liquid moving thru pipe. Various process ops occur along the pipeline that require mixing different oils, different nature gas content, distribution thru smaller lines, minimum volumes required for different refineries to function efficiently.

I'm not a pipeline guy so limited experience other than listening to engineers bitch about their problems.

[Newfie]

Thanks, some are saying it could be catastrophic for the Siberian wells. But I have no way of knowing if that is BS or not.

[vtsnowedin]

Thanks Rockman for saying what you know and also what you don't know.
A rare think these days on the internet.

[AdamB]

I'm not a pipeline guy so limited experience other than listening to engineers bitch about their problems.

Sure they bitch. Then they solve the problem! Like when they drill a well where the geoligist tells them to, and it makes bubcuss? They bitch about that one as well.