[jlw61]

Worth or not worth rationing will happen becasue it makes politicians look as if they are actually doing something to solve the problem, and boy, do they like that!

...

And once they've rationed gas, why not ration food, water, electricity or anything else?

There it is! Politicians like to look like they are doing something and once you let them ration something, what's to stop them from continuing the process?

Y'all need to think about what kevin is saying real careful like and realize he's talking about what will happen to you and yours if you let government make your choices for you.

Remember that sheeple are willing to trade freedom for security and responsibility for comfort.

[jlw61]

Well from the looks of it someone NEEDS to limit the food supply to individuals. GOOD GOD>

Online with guy from france and he said portions over there are half what they are here in the restaurants. NO WONDER we are so fat.

A serving is ONE CUP. Not the BUFETT line.
jk

That's a function of our society's "Live to Eat, Consume at all Costs, and Do Whatever You Want" attitude fostered over the last 50 years. Fear not, it is in the process of straightening out.

[joelcolorado]

Okay, thanks to all for the posts here. I have a new request.

Please list the things you see currently in your community that shows a melt down or a slowing of the economy. For instance here are mine.

Less cars in the parking lots in restaurants.
Home Depot sales off.
Lots of advertising for Amusement parks etc.
Six flag cut gate price due to gas hikes.
More ppl say they cant afford the meds prescribed.
Ppl only get some gas and dont fll up.
Convenience store owner told me he is going broke as inside sales are so low. People get gas and go and dont get chips etc.
Gym Membership down down down

[VMarcHart]

I was enjoying the ration chat. Before we switch gears, here's my 2 cents. Rationing will be self-enforced soon, as it has already started with joelcolorado's list. It will be very self-enforced when gas hits $20, which is just a matter of time.

I drove my wife to work this week. It was the first time I drove in 10 days. I noticed how the traffic in the Chicago Loop was much lighter. I loved it. Driving, despite expensive, is becoming a pleasure again.

[kevincarter]

And keep in mind that once gas rationing happens IT'S FOR EVER.
And one final note, people on WWII had the hope or the faith that things were gonna get better when the war was over and they were confident they'd win the war or at least they could do something to contribute, enlist, work, whatever... This hope help them to keep going. This situation is different, if they ration, utill when? Untill what?

Now, signs of melt down:

They reduced the speed limit on the highways near the city from 120 km/h to 80 km/h "to reduce contamination and accidents" they say that but I bet they aim to save gas.

Fishermen on strike, can't afford diesel

Truckers on strike, can't afford diesel either

Everybody saying oil is high because of the dollar and that if you convert it to euros bla bla bla but price at the pump going up by the week

Real state sales down 40%

Unemplomeny on the rise

First person to knock on my door asking for food in 20 years

And best of all: the governor of the Bank of Spain (where I live) saying proudly to the camera on national TV: We are entering into a deep process of recession.

Got your rice? Got your beans?

[lper100km]

IMO, trying to maintain a ‘free’ market in this scenario will merely accelerate the global economic freefall.

Not as fast as putting government controls onto the distribution of the product. Only the free market can adequately provide the fairest price. FREE MARKET that is, and yes, the oil market has some definite problems on that count, but adding to it with more controls will cause more problems than it will solve.

I’m not sure why you think that a free market will solve the problem. It’s the free market that has brought the world to this situation by not fully understanding and caring about the implications of consuming a finite resource. When you’re on the sustained depletion side of the resource curve, as opposed to the growth side, the economic model cannot be the same. This is something no one has ever faced, especially in a global economy. Why would you think that a continuation of the free market model will get us out of it? A reversal of the economic model probably requires a reversal of approach. More likely a controlled market has a greater chance of success of conserving the resource and prolonging the transition period. That can’t be a bad thing. It buys needed time for a transition to alternative societal structures and economies. It won’t be pretty, but neither will a distorted decline to zero which a free market will surely bring on, and very quickly.

Frankly, I don’t think anyone will get the choice. As the economy declines and civil unrest builds national governments will introduce all sorts of emergency legislation which will culminate in totalitarian regimes. It will start in ‘necessary’ areas, say with reserving supplies for the military, police and emergency services. Then maybe extend to ‘essential’ trucking, such as food supply. Of course, these will be backed up by enforcement regulations and appropriate penalties for cheating. And so it will go. Each new crisis will be met with stricter controls until, before you know it, your life is constrained in ways you have never before experienced. But it will be accepted because you can still get food and you are ‘secure’. There will be enforced conservation of course. Permits for this and that. Gasoline rationing for sure. You can’t holiday in Mexico because discretionary travel is severely curtailed and in any case the few airlines that remain are all government owned and operated. If you manage to sell your house, you can’t find a moving van for your possessions because the trucking companies are bankrupt. The only job you can get is part time with some obscure government agency at minimum pay and no pension. One day you wake up and realize there hasn’t been an election in six years. Well, what the hell! By this time you are so demoralized, on welfare, sick and fatigued you won’t care. So it will go. Welcome to the totalitarian state, step by little step, all perfectly logical, legal and necessary. You think it can’t happen? Of course it can and likely will with everyone’s support into the bargain.

At some point, the ‘rights’ of individuals to access oil simply because they have money will become an outrageous concept.

Only if socialism takes over. And thanks, but we've seen how that works out.

Regarding outrage against conspicuous oil consumption, you don’t have to wait for anything. It’s already happening. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... suv07.html

[VMarcHart]

Hey, Kevin. I partly agree with your comment that gas ration will be forever.

True, gasoline and other fuels will be rationed for a very, very long time, possibly forever. The small and respectful disagreement is that whatever technology or alternative that will replace oil, will be abundant and affordable for a while, and in time be scarse, expensive and reach its peak.

Kind of I imagine that candles were a hot commodities until Edison came up with the light bulb.

[vision-master]

Hey, Kevin. I partly agree with your comment that gas ration will be forever.

True, gasoline and other fuels will be rationed for a very, very long time, possibly forever. The small and respectful disagreement is that whatever technology or alternative that will replace oil, will be abundant and affordable for a while, and in time be scarse, expensive and reach its peak.

Kind of I imagine that candles were a hot commodities until Edison came up with the light bulb.

Oil lamps. Much of rural America did not receive eletricity until the 1950's. Aladdin lamps where the lighting standard for rural American. I have 14 Aladdin working lamps.

[burtonridr]

Excellent rant, Wrench.....

Yeah he went all out

I wouldnt have taken the time to make a comprehensive list of things that use crude to be made, I would have just said "EVERYTHING"

Doesnt quite sink in like a whole massive list though

[mgibbons19]

.... There is no replacement for crude...crude is in the details of our life.
.... Have you ever thought about how much of our life is dependent on natural gas for cooking, heating and hot water?

Ppl are at this forum because the answer is "yes, we have thought about those things."

That makes about .0001% of Americans (not counting our furrin friends here)

[VMarcHart]

V-M,

Does the Alladin Lamp use more, the same, or less energy for the same amounts of utilit and comfort than a regular light bulb? Does it ration, use the same, or more?

Thanks.

[mos6507]

I have 14 Aladdin working lamps.

Just for show or do you actually use them? I certainly hope you don't think it's a smart idea to waste kerosene on lighting.

[vetusfirma]

IMO, trying to maintain a ‘free’ market in this scenario will merely accelerate the global economic freefall.

Not as fast as putting government controls onto the distribution of the product. Only the free market can adequately provide the fairest price. FREE MARKET that is, and yes, the oil market has some definite problems on that count, but adding to it with more controls will cause more problems than it will solve.

I’m not sure why you think that a free market will solve the problem. It’s the free market that has brought the world to this situation by not fully understanding and caring about the implications of consuming a finite resource. When you’re on the sustained depletion side of the resource curve, as opposed to the growth side, the economic model cannot be the same. This is something no one has ever faced, especially in a global economy. Why would you think that a continuation of the free market model will get us out of it? A reversal of the economic model probably requires a reversal of approach. More likely a controlled market has a greater chance of success of conserving the resource and prolonging the transition period. That can’t be a bad thing. It buys needed time for a transition to alternative societal structures and economies. It won’t be pretty, but neither will a distorted decline to zero which a free market will surely bring on, and very quickly.

Frankly, I don’t think anyone will get the choice. As the economy declines and civil unrest builds national governments will introduce all sorts of emergency legislation which will culminate in totalitarian regimes. It will start in ‘necessary’ areas, say with reserving supplies for the military, police and emergency services. Then maybe extend to ‘essential’ trucking, such as food supply. Of course, these will be backed up by enforcement regulations and appropriate penalties for cheating. And so it will go. Each new crisis will be met with stricter controls until, before you know it, your life is constrained in ways you have never before experienced. But it will be accepted because you can still get food and you are ‘secure’. There will be enforced conservation of course. Permits for this and that. Gasoline rationing for sure. You can’t holiday in Mexico because discretionary travel is severely curtailed and in any case the few airlines that remain are all government owned and operated. If you manage to sell your house, you can’t find a moving van for your possessions because the trucking companies are bankrupt. The only job you can get is part time with some obscure government agency at minimum pay and no pension. One day you wake up and realize there hasn’t been an election in six years. Well, what the hell! By this time you are so demoralized, on welfare, sick and fatigued you won’t care. So it will go. Welcome to the totalitarian state, step by little step, all perfectly logical, legal and necessary. You think it can’t happen? Of course it can and likely will with everyone’s support into the bargain.

At some point, the ‘rights’ of individuals to access oil simply because they have money will become an outrageous concept.

Only if socialism takes over. And thanks, but we've seen how that works out.

Regarding outrage against conspicuous oil consumption, you don’t have to wait for anything. It’s already happening. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... suv07.html

A well thought out rant, but while I like some of the incites into your world, I must object to your position that government control of oil will result in better use.

I can find no historical example where government control of a resource resulted in a more efficient or 'better' use. If we look at the fact that most of the oil in the world is controlled by governments right now, then the concept fails on the surface. Even governments that don't 'own' oil have the ability to control use though taxation.

Perhaps a benign world dictator could take control of all the oil, for our own good, but that would just mean it would be used for Mr. dictator and friends.

The oil is going to run out. Nothing will stop that. Nothing could have stopped it.

[nocar]

I can find no historical example where government control of a resource resulted in a more efficient or 'better' use.

I know one historical example, Sweden in WWI and WWII.

In WWI, many basic commodities suddenly became scarce. Some businessmen were able to make lots of money from the situation, while other, particularly workers in cities were starving. There were ' bread riots'. At the end of the war, some rationing was introduced, but too late to have an impact.

In WWII the government had learned a lesson and rationing of basic foods and clothing was introduced from the start. You got coupons that entitled you to buy things like eggs, milk, bread, butter, with different coupons. The number of coupons depended on the number of people in the household. Underweight children got extra coupons.

Overall, the rationing system was perceived as fair. Certainly there were loopholes, like some produce escaped the rationing system and was sold on the black market. And city people with country relative might get some extra produce that way. There also was an extensive trading of coupons. As I understand it, just exchanging different types for coupons with someone else was legal, outright selling was not.

So although the rationing system in WWII did not work perfectly, it ensured that everyone got their basic needs met, and it was generally considered a success compared to the chaotic free market situation in WWI just 20 yrs before.

Btw, petrol was not rationed in the same way. It was just not available for ordinary citizens, but reserved for emergency vehicles and the military. Everyone bicycled for their daily travels. Actually, the army had a specialty: A big truck would drive with equipment, and the soldiers were transported by riding bicycles holding on to a long rope after the truck. A very energy efficient way of moving a large number of people.

Btw, less butter but no starvation and more bicycling made the Swedish population very healthy in WWII. Not that it was a happy time, with all the worries of a possible German invasion, no international travel opportunities, and all the horrible war news.
I was not yet born, but I have heard many stories from my parent generation.

nocar

[energycity]

Rationing constrains and kills economic growth. It won't work

Economic growth? Nice idea but is this realistic if the world really is facing peak resources?

As always price will enforce rationing. Those who can't afford the cost will drive less or not at all.

I agree it's the simplest system to operate; the trouble is that some of the most essential workers are amongst the low paid. They would be priced out and I still want the sewers maintained, nurses doing their stuff, agricultural workers able to get to work etc. Some degree of non-cost related rationing would probably be necessary.

Plus I could sell my ration on the black market.

[mos6507]

Btw, less butter but no starvation and more bicycling made the Swedish population very healthy in WWII. Not that it was a happy time, with all the worries of a possible German invasion, no international travel opportunities, and all the horrible war news.
I was not yet born, but I have heard many stories from my parent generation.

Seems like the countries that are the most level headed in a crisis are those that are very culturally/ethnically homogeneous. When the going gets tough, that's when ethnic clashes start up.

[vetusfirma]

Don’t ration gas, ration oil. We need to make sure the oil we have goes to the sole purpose of perfecting replacement energy sources. To that end, as the bad guys in the world, we should take all the oil and be the worlds broker. The more fruitful research a country does, the more oil they will be allocated.

Or

Either all people must be forced to live at a lower standard of living or the number of people must be reduced, and kept at the higher standard of living, to stretch the useful life of fossil fuel. If you don’t want to force the issue then I want to know who here will volunteer to be in one of the four following groups:

1. The group that lives without oil.
2. The group that drinks the kool aid.
3. The group that makes everybody live without oil and drink kool aid.
4. The group of subsistence survivors who didn’t do anything meaningful.

[energycity]

Btw, less butter but no starvation and more bicycling made the Swedish population very healthy in WWII. Not that it was a happy time, with all the worries of a possible German invasion, no international travel opportunities, and all the horrible war news.

It was the same in the UK; it's often said that we were never healthier than in WW2; hungry mind you, but healthier.

Like you we worried about "a possible German invasion" but according to my grandfather there were LOTS of "international travel opportunities" !!

[vetusfirma]

Btw, less butter but no starvation and more bicycling made the Swedish population very healthy in WWII. Not that it was a happy time, with all the worries of a possible German invasion, no international travel opportunities, and all the horrible war news.

It was the same in the UK; it's often said that we were never healthier than in WW2; hungry mind you, but healthier.

Like you we worried about "a possible German invasion" but according to my grandfather there were LOTS of "international travel opportunities" !!

The problem with comparing before and after wars is that we tend to kill off a lot of our best reproductive age males and reproduce with the shirkers who stayed behind. When that happens enough times, the gene pool become weak. I personally think that is what happened to the Romans. Too many wars too quickly.

The Brits have had a lot of human expenditures maintaining the empire, and I think its taken a toll. I am not being disrespectful. I wish they would have kept the empire together. Would be alot different today.

[nocar]

"The problem with comparing before and after wars is that we tend to kill off a lot of our best reproductive age males and reproduce with the shirkers who stayed behind."

In the Swedish case, we have not fought any war since 1809. The Swedish soldiers never had to fight in WW2, they just prepared for defending Sweden, due to the 'shirker' policies of the government.

In the USA, and many other countries many more young men have died in car accidents than in war, at least since WW2. How does that affect the gene pool?

nocar