[Pretorian]

What was the problem in the great depression with regard to food? Was it that farmers couldn't grow or plant? No. They couldn't sell. No buyers. They'd get stuck with a bunch of produce that would quickly go from valuable asset, to expensive trash, and helpless to do anything about it. Food stamps guarantee that the food MARKET remains liquid at least for basic commodities. So the financial cycle of the farmer can continue even if the normal economy goes belly up. Grow food, harvest food, sell food, pay mortgage/taxes, buy seed, grow food... Any break in that financial chain and things go real bad, real fast.

We dont exactly live in Argentina of 18th century where only hides had any value and all filet mignons were thrown out to the vultures. There is a huge market for everything out there. Food stamps is welfare and nothing else.

[efarmer]

http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.h ... sueID=8521

One of the few Republicans talking is Paul Ryan with the Roadmap for America's Future, which if it works out like their Contract with America will get thrown out the window completely when they get one of their own in the White House, as CWA did when Bush and Cheney were installed by the
Supreme Court ruling in 2000.

My personal opinion is to always follow the money. In this case New York is itching to get their mitts on as much of the Social Security Trust Fund as they can and they are hiring delivery boys.
Social Security has to be delivered to the New York money concentration machine ASAP, with the 55 and older people exempted since they vote, the young freed to go 100% New York with their retirement and the Social Security System to starve to death while the people caught in the gap burn the fund out while it is not being replenished by younger workers.
Raising the retirement age is another little kiss, this means you don't get to retire until you are about to die and the burden is shifted from Medicaid or Medicare back to those who employ old people or private insurance.

This means old people will be forced out when they get expensive to cover for medical insurance and not be able to retire or qualify for government benefits until they are perhaps 70 years old.
When you hit 70, having watched a load of folks check out on the budget plan, you will accept what ever level of care you qualify for as better than almost none. Old people are the biggest threat to profits in the medical insurance game.

1. New York wins everyone's retirement money to run the pump and skim trick on.

2. Medical insurance companies make out like a bandit, again.

3. Old people in the gap from unemployable to those able to officially retire will have to live and die dirt cheap, which immediately lifts the expense away from the big medical insurance companies to boost the bottom line and stock and it cuts the government cost down as well.

Be sure you put the people in Washington that New York wants, or you will find out that they have to do a little dog training and eat a big chunk of your retirement to keep your mind right once the New York casino boys are in charge of your health and retirement totally.

The manufacturing is gone, the retirement money skimmed from those who had some, the big banks put in position with zero cost capital to carpetbag the nation, and next, we are going to set the health care system up to be a corporate money machine with a trap door to eject geezers.

[Ludi]

One of the few Republicans talking is Paul Ryan with the Roadmap for America's Future

Why not just raise the cap on SS contributions?

Ooops, my mistake, that would be "punishing the producers."

[Sixstrings]

Since the country is still a few hundred trillion in the hole from the fantasy wealth generation of the Bush Republicans, there is no way to create another fantasy economy like the 2005-2007 frenzy.

That's exactly my thoughts, that those who think a Republican congress or Republican president can bring back the "good days" of the Bush years are sorely mistaken. The wad has been shot, the last bubble blown and there is no where but down from here.

Get ready to here the word "austerity" a lot. Everything that can be cut will be cut, except for the military and tax breaks and bailouts to the rich and incorporated.

[Ludi]

Raising the retirement age is another little kiss, this means you don't get to retire until you are about to die

No, you are "retired" when you are laid off, and then you can't get another job and you get to live in a cardboard box until you either die or reach the new older retirement age and can collect your benefits (if any).

[efarmer]

I think you meant what I know to say Ludi.

[Ludi]

I think you meant what I know to say Ludi.

You know it.

[Pretorian]

Raising the retirement age is another little kiss, this means you don't get to retire until you are about to die

No, you are "retired" when you are laid off, and then you can't get another job and you get to live in a cardboard box until you either die or reach the new older retirement age and can collect your benefits (if any).

while at work, buy a tent and a sleeping bag. Problem solved.

[careinke]

Why not just raise the cap on SS contributions?

Ooops, my mistake, that would be "punishing the producers."

OMG Ludi and I agree on something (other than permaculture)!

When I was a wage slave, I used to max my social security payments out (around July). It was a nice little pay raise for the second half of the year.

That said, I think they should completely eliminate the cap on social security payments. They should also make all social security payments the same for everyone once they reach retirement age. Maybe pay all retirees the current poverty level. If you based the social security tax on all sources of income, instead of limiting it to just wages, you could dramatically lower the rate and not penalize the middle and lower class.

[Heading_for_the_hills]

It is 6:30 pm on Labor Day in Norfolk. I was laid off in 2008 b/c off supposed down sizing but I did talk about peak oil and its implications at work-mistake!! any way-I have drained my 401K and cashed in my life insurance in order to survive and not lose my house...I apply for food stamps 2 weeks ago and was told that I made too much on unemployment even though I have negative cash flow- I was told to sell my house...Since I have no dependents, my qualifying income exceeded the limits!!! that is unreal-it encourages ppl to pop out babies...I have no debt except for my house and college. I have paid cash for everything else. I drive a 16 yr old Honda and cancelled my cell phone-funny that there were numerous individuals with blackberrys and iphones texting away while waiting for for EBT(food stamps) approval

[Ludi]

Since I have no dependents, my qualifying income exceeded the limits!!! that is unreal-it encourages ppl to pop out babies...

I seriously doubt very many (if any) women have babies in order to get food stamps.

http://www.gettingfoodstamps.org/whouses.htm

[Pretorian]

Since I have no dependents, my qualifying income exceeded the limits!!! that is unreal-it encourages ppl to pop out babies...

I seriously doubt very many (if any) women have babies in order to get food stamps.

http://www.gettingfoodstamps.org/whouses.htm

there are many other things aside of foodstamps, ludi

[MarkJ]

From my experience renting to rent subsidized single mothers, most want the total package including subsidized public/private housing, food stamps, WIC, foodbank supplements, free school lunches, child support, zero/negative income taxation, $X,000 tax/credit refunds, family assistance, cash income streams, daycare, transportation, Medicaid, HEAP, Emergency HEAP, lifeline cellular etc.

The only benefits they don't want are cash welfare benefits due to time limits and strict work search, job training and/or work requirements.

[Cog]

Just a few points for Ludi. Military spending has gone up under Obama from Bush's 2009 military budget to Obama's military budget of 2010. The Democrats and Republicans have cut spending on food stamps for fiscal year 2013(Don't ask me how this works since the revenue and number of people collecting aren't even in the system yet)

But the numbers of people on Medicaid, food-stamps, welfare, unemployment etc. that have rapidly increased both under Obama and Bush, tell me that the economy is very sick. I don't fix particular blame on either of them. Rather, its the American people who prefer to believe in the illusion of unlimited growth and debt, and who elect politicians who tell them that is reality, is the real problem. We have never demanded reality from our political class and they don't feel compelled to give us the bad news that would result in them being tossed out of office either. The music has stopped playing and the ship is going down. Get to your lifeboat because no party is going to stop the inevitable grind-down. I don't say crash because I don't buy fast crash. But things will never get better. Just a bit more grim each and every year for the rest of your life.

We will have fiscal austerity because we will be forced to. That should include massive cuts to military spending. That will also have a ripple effect as military contractors, parts suppliers to them, and the active duty force that will join the ranks of the unemployed. No politicians in either party have really sat down and looked at what type of military force is necessary to protect the 50 states of the USA. You are called unpatriotic if you want to cut the military one penny.

For far too long the majority of people in the USA have engaged in living in fantasy land. Prices of housing will always go up, my job will always be there, social security is solvent, underfunded pensions will become funded because GDP will always go up are just a few of the fantasies we have engaged in over the last 40 years.

[PrestonSturges]

Just a few points for Ludi. Military spending has gone up under Obama from Bush's 2009 military budget to Obama's military budget of 2010.......
We will have fiscal austerity because we will be forced to. That should include massive cuts to military spending. That will also have a ripple effect as military contractors, parts suppliers to them, the active duty force will join the ranks of the unemployed. No politicians in either party have really sat down and looked at what type of military force is necessary to protect the 50 states of the USA. You are called unpatriotic if you want to cut the military one penny.

That first point sort of calls for you to compare Obama's accounting method and Bush's accounting where the wars were in a sub ledger paid for in pixie dust and unicorn farts rather than dollars.

Second point is that under expected GOP majorities we will see an orgy of military spending. That spending includes money shipped to other continents and simply "misplaced," and astronomical amounts of stuff that will rot in warehouses. They'll be pissing off the Muslims hoping to get the US attacked while schools, unemployment, Social Security, and medical care get slashed.

[Cog]

Just a few points for Ludi. Military spending has gone up under Obama from Bush's 2009 military budget to Obama's military budget of 2010.......
We will have fiscal austerity because we will be forced to. That should include massive cuts to military spending. That will also have a ripple effect as military contractors, parts suppliers to them, the active duty force will join the ranks of the unemployed. No politicians in either party have really sat down and looked at what type of military force is necessary to protect the 50 states of the USA. You are called unpatriotic if you want to cut the military one penny.

That first point sort of calls for you to compare Obama's accounting method and Bush's accounting where the wars were in a sub ledger paid for in pixie dust and unicorn farts rather than dollars.

Second point is that under expected GOP majorities we will see an orgy of military spending. That spending includes money shipped to other continents and simply "misplaced," and astronomical amounts of stuff that will rot in warehouses. They'll be pissing off the Muslims hoping to get the US attacked while schools, unemployment, Social Security, and medical care get slashed.

Afghanistan and Iraq have been funded by both Bush and Obama with continuing resolutions to fund those wars. There is a regular DOD budget, which is what I am referring to. You can't tell me that Obama has cut military spending one bit. In fact, with the surge into Afghanistan, military expenditures have increased.

Everything will be slashed, like it or not. The elite will slash the social programs first since they are rather easy targets. But make no mistake, the days of American empire building are numbered as well.

I see very little difference between the two parties right now on what is important to them. That being, to continue to support corporate America and the military-industrial complex. That is where both sides get their money and the bulk of the American people are just inconvenient voters. Look at where the bailouts went that were supported by both the Democrats and Republicans.

[Ludi]

I see very little difference between the two parties right now on what is important to them.

But what about what is important to you?

[Cog]

I see very little difference between the two parties right now on what is important to them.

But what about what is important to you?

Hmm. A citizenry who practices self-reliance, low debt load, continuing education even if its just learning new skills. A political class who does not seek to increase the size of the political system or government. One that looks ahead 10-20-50 years on problems that will come up and devise strategies to deal with those items. Peak Oil and Climate Change come to mind immediately.

Course not of this will happen since we prefer illusion and so does the political class. Its so much easier. We as a body of citizens would have to reach an evolutionary stage where we would prefer brutal honesty then campaign slogans. Not going to happen IMO.

[Ludi]

We as a body of citizens would have to reach an evolutionary stage where we would prefer brutal honesty then campaign slogans. Not going to happen IMO.

So what's the solution? Not vote?

[Cog]

We as a body of citizens would have to reach an evolutionary stage where we would prefer brutal honesty then campaign slogans. Not going to happen IMO.

So what's the solution? Not vote?

There are no solutions. There only remains individual options. I do vote for the most fiscally rational people I can find. Sometimes they are Republicans but usually they are no-chance-of-winning Libertarians. Here is a case in point on over-promised state pension plans based on a system of unsustainable growth and debt. I will include a snippet but the whole article is well worth your time to peruse. My own state of Illinois is so far into fiscal insanity they make California look good by comparison.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 62860.html

Bailing out state pensions would be astronomically expensive. According to a Pew Foundation estimate this year, the total unfunded liabilities of the 50 states' pension funds amounted to about $1 trillion in 2008. Another recent study, by Josh Rauh of Northwestern and Robert Novy-Marx of the Chicago Booth School of Business, estimated that the unfunded liability was closer to $3 trillion. Adding the liabilities of municipal pension funds makes the total even larger.