[Nicholai]

Canada is not the same as the United States, read the book "The Truth About Canada" by Mel Hurtig. Canada is made up of random people with jobs working in foreign-owned companies (Canada has the largest percentage of foreign ownership over any other country in the world by far!) . Anyways, that's a different issue entirely and I wish to focus on Finland.

Some questions for Mr.Bean, is the farm hard to find? Is it in a sparsely populated region? Where do you live? Personally, I think Finland is the perfect location since there is no longer any reason for Russia to invade, low population density, TONS of fresh water, TONS of trees, no natural gas to draw major powers, no oil reserves to draw major powers. I think Sweden and Norway will experience floods of people since their language isn't nearly as difficult and a vast amount of the population speaks English almost to a native level. They are northern and will experience the best of the worst of what climate change has to offer and Norway's Foreign Investment Fund is looking to hit around 600,000,000,000$ by 2009, making Norway one of the richest nations in the world per capita. As for Finland, I think people will be dissuaded because of the language barrier and the lack of knowledge of Finland in general. Everyone knows about Sweden and Norway, Finland seems to be forgotten....except sometimes when Canada destroys them in hockey, but this is again another story...

How is Finland's climate changing? How do the Finnish people view foreigners? Is there a difference between the way Finns treat Danish people vs, say, Ethiopian people? Are the ladies of Keuruu very nice? Are they very strict? What are their reasons for joining this village?

[phaeryen]

How is Finland's climate changing? How do the Finnish people view foreigners? Is there a difference between the way Finns treat Danish people vs, say, Ethiopian people? Are the ladies of Keuruu very nice? Are they very strict? What are their reasons for joining this village?

The climate change has made winter a very bleak experience here. There is no snow, there is no sun, so its depressing and dark outside for a long part of the year. If it keeps getting warmer here and the golf/gulf-stream doesnt halt to a standstill, then its fair to assume that climate change will benefit finland with a longer growing season. The growing season was classically regarded as too short here.

We, finnish people, are sullen and withdrawn from an outsiders perspective. When in collision with more sociable cultures we tend to get regarded as curious people or even hostile, but it is usually just a misunderstanding. One of Finlands problems currently is our dwindling population, which our government is trying to mitigate by taking in lots of immigrants. Having an open door for immigrations from war-torn african nations for a long time has raised racial issues. There is a general consensus of barely concealed hostility towards somalians, for example.

The bigger towns (our biggest 'city' and capital is only 500,000 people so from the pov of the whole world we dont have cities!) have contained alien minorities for quite some time now, so regular folks are not racially prejudiced. Especially in Helsinki you can run into pretty much any language being spoken. On the other hand when you go out into the less populated places the populace is pretty homogenous, which lends itself to racial prejudice.

A lot of the programming on TV is from north american companies, so finnish folk tend to regard anyone capable of speaking a distinct north american dialect as some sort of a celebrity. So its is easy to charm folks just by talking, if youre coming in from that part of the world. Though I would imagine going over the same basic conversation in very cumbersome slow english that the folks here know might get tiring after a while. On the other hand the actions of Bush&co. have seen to a rise in anti american sentiment, but this is true pretty much everywhere else also.

... As for the ladies of Keuruu I'm afraid you will have to find out for yourself.

Speaking of the language Finnish, what does the word "Seikkailija" mean in English? It's a song performed by Dacia. Maybe because I can recite the song well enough, they'll take me too.
Wishful Thinking

Seikkailija = Adventurer

[Nicholai]

I'm sorry if I offend anyone but from what I've seen on this board (from those who have identified themselves as Finnish), Finnish people don't seem to be very happy. Would you recommend Sweden or Norway instead? How about Denmark? I'm visiting the largest commune in Europe located 50km west of Copenhagen but the problem with Denmark is that it's a tiny country of over 5 million people and I don't want to be stuck in a bad situation when hoards of people start looking for a better place to live. Thoughts?

[Fredrik]

You seem to be bent on communes and ecovillages. But the way I see it: if things got so dire that you would want to be in one, the place would most probably get pillaged (by government or by looters) and abandoned. In your position I'd consider learning a practical trade that will be in high demand in a post-cheap-oil world, as soon as possible. And as I've noted, you're welcome here but there are many upsides to living in your native country, like having family and friends around. I've got an American friend who's settled here and I don't think the next decades are going to be easy for him when global communications break down and he has to speculate his family's fate across the ocean.

I'm sorry if I offend anyone but from what I've seen on this board (from those who have identified themselves as Finnish), Finnish people don't seem to be very happy.

No we're not, and we're quite proud of our morbid sadness and pessimism. Maybe that's why the gloomy ambience of peak oil forums seems to attract a disproportionate number of us.

Would you recommend Sweden or Norway instead? How about Denmark?

More joyful and talkative people, easier languages, a little warmer climate, peaceful societies (except some immigrant ghettoes). But more refugee hordes to be expected as you noted.

[Nicholai]

Gah, my native country (Canada) is not going to be in any pleasant state in the next 50 years. Soon Canada will not exist and we will be apart of the United States, Alberta (my province of residence) is expected to have severe drought within the next 40 years and our climate is expected to return to it's more desert-like state. There is an undercurrent of political will in the United States to start requiring Canada to divert major rivers and lakes to the United States due to water shortages in the Mid West. With our current free trade agreement with the US, Canada MUST continue to export oil to the United States even if we are experiencing domestic shortages, I would be glad to link you that article if you would like. America soldiers can now enter Canada if we request so, under the premise of a 'domestic emergency'. Vise vera with the United States and Canadian soldiers. Most Americans are garunteed to move North. Would anyone recommend looking at ecovillages in Quebec? I speak French and the ecovillage is located on an old military base so the homes are all well fortified and it seems fairly isolated. The only problem that I could see would be high population density in the East Coast...butt I think Americans would be VERY desperate to move into back-country Quebec. I'm thinking I will visit the ecovillage in Quebec before I come to Finland. Anyways...anything you can tell me, keep it coming, it's much appreciated.

[Wildfire]

Nicholai--

You said: "Most Americans are garunteed to move North."

Beg to differ with you. Most of the absolute highest growth rate is to the south east like North and South Carolina, Georgia, to the south west Arizona, and Oregon on the west coast. Most people ARE NOT moving North. And where do you get this absurd idea that we want to take over Canada??? Heck, I think more Americans are concerned that the Mexicans and Japanese are taking over US!

Most Americans do not support these porous borders with Mexico and Canada.

I personally have ZERO desire to move anywhere the average winter temp. is below 55 degrees. But then I'm southern born and bred. LOL!

You would have a much greater chance of finding what you're looking for here on the North American continent and would probably be happier around people that are familiar to you. But that is just my opinion.

[Nicholai]

Of course I wasn't speaking about the present. Americans aren't moving north at the moment, but as the US mid west experiences more frequent dry spells and the economy of the United States goes through the floor, where are they likely to move? Where on earth would you find a similar culture, language and lifestyle with a bountiful amount of natural resources left over to keep the economy humming at a moderate level? Canada. Victoria never sees snow, it's really not THAT cold of a country anymore. There will be many Americans coming here I can guarantee it. When things start to fail, they'll want somewhere safe and similar...that my friend is Canada.

[MrBean]

You seem to be bent on communes and ecovillages. But the way I see it: if things got so dire that you would want to be in one, the place would most probably get pillaged (by government or by looters) and abandoned.

In regards to looters, the key is how well connected and interlinked an ecovillage is to its neighbours. I don't believe friends and members of the local hunging club need to worry much about "zombie hoards".

Governement actions, on the other hand, are wildly chaotic and unpredictable in most areas, and by general rule extremely oppressive towards any sign of independence, so that is a genuine fear. On the balancing side, it is not unreasonable prediction that with PO advancing governements are becoming more and more inefficient - to do their worst.

No we're not, and we're quite proud of our morbid sadness and pessimism. Maybe that's why the gloomy ambience of peak oil forums seems to attract a disproportionate number of us.

One underlying reason for our morbid sadness that we seldom speak about (collective shame? Stockholm syndrome?) is that we have been colonized by Europeans more than 500 years, and now have become nearly totally assimilated.

[Nicholai]

I'd have to say that my character is fairly immature and blaze. I don't anything seriously in most scenarios but ask me about politics and I hope to have you leaving the room in tears or at least too depressed to function. Other than that, I enjoy beer and parties just like everyone else. I hope this fits into the live of the average Finn. Are most Finns peak oil aware or have at least a lesser energy intensive lifestyle than our own in North America? Rural Quebec is also an option for me at this point but I intend to visit everywhere possible before I make my decision.

[Nicholai]

Oh yeah, and this is to all of the depressed Finns on my thread. I hope this makes you smile...or dance...or think of going for Sauna...or marrying me and giving me citizenship...

Enjoy

Dance

[MrBean]

Are most Finns peak oil aware or have at least a lesser energy intensive lifestyle than our own in North America?

No and not really, alas.

On the plus side, not all of Finns take themselves very seriously, so with a little luck you'll find good company for beer. If you ain't too choosy and can get over being constantly embarrased by their behaviour...

[Arkwright]

Was in todays main news in national tv:
Food costs have risen more in Finland (10%)than in rest of EU (6%), especially dairy products and meat. Main reason presented was risen energycosts of production and transportation, but there was also speculation of higher profit margins of industry and traders.

Link in Finnish: Ruoka kallistunut Suomessa EU-keskiarvoa enemman

Link to Google Translation

[Graeme]

Finnish oil company provides major grant to make bio-fuel from algae

A Massey research project to commercially develop sustainable, carbon-neutral biofuel from slimy green algae to ultimately replace petrol-based fuels has received a funding boost from a Finnish oil refining company.
Professor Yusuf Chisti, a biochemical engineer based in Palmerston North, has for the past 12 years been developing technology to produce commercial quantities of micro-algal biomass to make various products, including algal bio-diesel – a revolutionary alternative to existing fossil fuel alternatives.
Neste Oil Corporation, a major oil refiner in Finland, has just agreed to pour $850,000 into Professor Chisti’s research because of environmental concerns relating to using petroleum.

massey

[Fredrik]

MrBean, IslandCrow and all others, wouldn't it be worthwhile to discuss PO and related subjects from a specifically Finnish point of view? I believe that as the situation progresses, everyone's focus will naturally concentrate on challenges and opportunities in their own country. (Serious international conflicts excepted, of course.)

Here's a rather neglected Finnish PO forum that can serve as one possible medium for sharing thoughts and ideas. If you know any others, please let us know. The issue has obviosly raised too little concentrated attention in our country, although more and more people seem to be catching on, judging by comments made on economic newssites and forums.

[NeoPeasant]

MrBean, IslandCrow and all others, wouldn't it be worthwhile to discuss PO and related subjects from a specifically Finnish point of view?

I agree. We're Finnished.

[IslandCrow]

I see that the forum has been asleep for some time, with the last post from January this year.

What would we need to get it going again? Also do you know any of the people who set the forum up in the first place (although it looks as if you posted there at least once)?

As the forum is 'dead' do you know of other sites that might deal with alternative energy that would be active? In that case they might be a better bet rather than restarting "Oljyhuippu" [Sorry I have to use an English form of the name as some imperialistic software system behind this forum won't allow me to post the extra letters in the Finnish alphabet]

[MrBean]

Don't know if a dedicated PO forum for Few Fennic Fellows would serve any purpose, perhaps it's for a reason the effort died out. What I know is that perhaps the most prominent young Finnish philosopher, Tere Vaden, is very much PO savvy and talks openly about it, and that the rihmasto people are not ignorant either.

Those who know and want to know, allready know and respond in various ways. Those in denial are hard to talk to without loosing cool.

For those still believing in statehood, I recommend rejoining Russia to get a share of their oil...

[Fredrik]

Also do you know any of the people who set the forum up in the first place (although it looks as if you posted there at least once)?

No. They formed a Yahoo group with 17 members so far. There was talk about a meeting in Helsinki a year or two ago, but there apparently hasn't been much real activity since.

As the forum is 'dead' do you know of other sites that might deal with alternative energy that would be active?

This blog has relevant, well-written posts on the subject, but doesn't allow comments. Some other bloggers are PO aware as well, but concentrate mostly on other issues.

What I know is that perhaps the most prominent young Finnish philosopher, Tere Vaden, is very much PO savvy and talks openly about it, and that the rihmasto people are not ignorant either.

You mean these people and not these... or these?

But you're right, most people will be in denial until oil hits $250-300. By then, it will probably be too late to prepare adequately. As a country, we'll have to cope with the crisis as it comes. But I still see it as an ethical necessity to inform anyone who's willing to listen.

For those still believing in statehood, I recommend rejoining Russia to get a share of their oil...

Nyet, we won't get that lucky. But I still firmly believe in the nation-state as the best short-to-medium term administrative unit to deal with PO that will be available for us. I don't think smaller communities could prevent social chaos, widespread crime and rule of the strongest, which would probably lead to some kind of brutal neo-feodalism. A strong but legitimate national government is also needed to manage available physical and human resources in a way that (hopefully) considers the needs of the whole country.

[MrBean]

Nyet, we won't get that lucky. But I still firmly believe in the nation-state as the best short-to-medium term administrative unit to deal with PO that will be available for us. I don't think smaller communities could prevent social chaos, widespread crime and rule of the strongest, which would probably lead to some kind of brutal neo-feodalism. A strong but legitimate national government is also needed to manage available physical and human resources in a way that (hopefully) considers the needs of the whole country.

It's not an either-or issue, I believe it's basically a matter of trust - there is no good reason to trust the nation state system being able to satisfy the basic needs of the citizenry even on short-to-medium term. It can shoot up some of the rioters in streets but it can't guarantee that there is food in the supermarkets and even if there is, that people can afford to eat.

Of course, a total collapse of the nation state is not in the interest of the small permaculture communities at least on short to medium term, but if (and when) that happens, an ecovillage would certainly not be among the worst places to be. Not to mention that when thinking about what kind of post collapse future could and would be quite nice, networks of ecovillages is IMHO the best practical idea so far.

[Fredrik]

It's not an either-or issue, I believe it's basically a matter of trust - there is no good reason to trust the nation state system being able to satisfy the basic needs of the citizenry even on short-to-medium term. It can shoot up some of the rioters in streets but it can't guarantee that there is food in the supermarkets and even if there is, that people can afford to eat.

As long as producing enough calories for all citizens is physically possible (and it will probably remain possible here, unless there is a sudden climate collapse), the government can ration food and other basic necessities for all on an egalitarian basis, as it did during the war. (And if the government doesn't enforce a fair distribution of resources, it will be quickly overthrown, but the state as an institution will hardly be abandoned.)

Even the most miserable third world countries, with major internal conflicts, usually retain some form of state structure and law enforcement (Somalia is an exception). And these are countries where the modern nation-state often enjoys no traditional support among the tribal population. I presume Finns have a much higher esteem for the modern state structure as a guarantee of civil society.

In anarchy, there is no governing body that could even theoretically provide food for those who don't produce it and can offer no products or services in exchange for it - which would be the majority, at least initially after the collapse. Likewise, sustaining the supply of electricity (and remote heating in urban areas), as long as any can be provided, is a major incentive for maintaining the state rule.

Of course, a total collapse of the nation state is not in the interest of the small permaculture communities at least on short to medium term, but if (and when) that happens, an ecovillage would certainly not be among the worst places to be. Not to mention that when thinking about what kind of post collapse future could and would be quite nice, networks of ecovillages is IMHO the best practical idea so far.

Well, I find the idea of small rural villages, where everyone lives in harmony with each other and the environment, somewhat attractive... But here are three problems, from the top of my head:

1) Sustainability: An ecovillage must be able to produce enough food and energy for its members, or an oversupply of other products/services to buy food from elsewhere (same point as above). This could be problematic in many parts of the country where the climate is not advantageous for agriculture (and cows, sheep etc. cannot be bred as fast as needed).

2) Defence: Of course, an ecovillage that grows its own food is initially better off during a descent into anarchy. But how would a self-sustaining community of, say, 100 members survive with 10,000 hungry and angry people in walking/biking distance? With no police or army for protection and many of those hungry people owning a handgun? So you would have to have everyone living in the same kind of ecovillage network. Which brings us to:

3) Scalability: Only a very small minority would probably be willing to leave their home and join an ecovillage, even during financial hardship and reduced energy supply. If there is any hope to get just enough food and heat where you are now, provided by a governing body that represents the people, I believe the vast majority would prefer that to a primitive, lawless neo-agrarian existence. Especially if there is an ever-growing demand for security against crime (which is very likely). Also, the economies of scale seem to benefit larger, industrially run farms instead of numerous small farms, even during an energy descent. There was an article about that on The Oil Drum, but I can't find it right now.

So, I don't picture Finland in the 1000's, I picture Finland in the 1940's (minus the war... hopefully).