[frankthetank]

I do not agree with what was done to the bison herd in this country. I think its tragic, sad tale in our history....HOWEVER...Be it humans or climate, those herds of bison can disappear quickly. The same can be said for the billions of humans who now occupy this planet.. Hopefully we can hold out a few more years...but the clock is ticking.

[eastbay]

The massive bison herds appeared in a flash and disappeared in a flash. Amazing what people can do even without technology. And on foot.

[Lore]

The massive bison herds appeared in a flash and disappeared in a flash. Amazing what people can do even without technology. And on foot.

Doesn't take much technology, just a primitive single shot carbine dismounted or mounted from a horse or moving train against a defenseless species.

[Ludi]

Remember, the bison population in North America would never have risen as high as it was without deforestation by burning practiced by the pre-European inhabitants. Humans have shaped the environment where ever we are and are almost always very destructive.

This is one of the examples of it not being destructive. The Prairies created by burning developed one of the most productive ecosystems on the planet. Under different climate conditions and over a longer period, the same practice was destructive (eg Australia).

[hillsidedigger]

Remember, the bison population in North America would never have risen as high as it was without deforestation by burning practiced by the pre-European inhabitants. Humans have shaped the environment where ever we are and are almost always very destructive.

This is one of the examples of it not being destructive. The Prairies created by burning developed one of the most productive ecosystems on the planet. Under different climate conditions and over a longer period, the same practice was destructive (eg Australia).

The bison's other herbivore competitors on the Great Plains had only recently, maybe 10,000 or little more years earlier, become absent. I think the bison populaltion in the Great Plains had been building to a peak and might have shortly declined anyhow.

[Pops]

Actually prairies and savannahs depend on fire to keep them from turning into scrub woodlands. Europeans put out the fires and much of what was savannah and prairie in OK, KS, MO is now scrub woodland. I'd guess the grass burned way before humans.
http://www.nifc.gov/preved/comm_guide/w ... ire_6.html
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I just now stumbled across this article. Tellingly it is from Perry, OK, the starting line for the run on the cherokee strip and about 4 years after the indian lands were open to homesteading. My great grandfather was in the run and after proving up his homestead along the river in 1901 (I think) he bought another farm because of the grass to run his cattle on - they called it The Prairie Place.




Today hardly any grass grows there, too much scrub oak.

For those that may not know, I raise dairy bull calves on grass (when they are big enough) I have 49 head right now, from a week old to about a year, which is when I usually sell them to be grain finished in a feed lot. So I'm not arguing cow burps are the end of the world or that grass finishing is a panacea or that eliminating beef and dairy all together would change nothing - basically I don't know.

Which I guess puts me in the minority because so many here seem to have not only all the answers but an attitude that would get them slapped in the mouth where I was raised.

[Tanada]

Which I guess puts me in the minority because so many here seem to have not only all the answers but an attitude that would get them slapped in the mouth where I was raised.

You and me both Pops, I found myself on the ground looking up at the sky more than once for mouthing off. Amazing what a hard swat upside the head can do for ones attitude isn't it?

I believe in Global Warming, I see evidence of it all around me as I work outside in all weather year around.

I also believe that all the fossil fuels mankind has been heavily exploiting for the last 120 years or so are a contributing factor, perhaps even the main factor in Global Warming.

I don't believe that livestock have a whole lot of impact given that ruminant herbivores were common all through Earth's history. There are a whole lot of deer and such running around even today. Termites are actually the largest biological animal source of Methane but the PETA types will latch onto any excuse to complain about the farmers and ranchers 'exploiting' the animals.

Sorry I grew up on a small farm and think PETA people should have to grow all their own food before they start spouting off about 'exploiter' farmers. It is a frickin hard job during peak season and steady work for the rest of the year. Vacation means someone gets to stay home and tend things or you have to hire someone to do it so that the whole family can go together.

[dissident]

Methane from cattle is an irrelevant factor in the disaster that is AGW. Current methane levels are low (under 2 ppmv at the surface) and were leveling off until the Arctic melt became apparent in the last several years. This is in spite of the fact that the number of cattle was not decreasing. The only issue with cattle is clear cutting forests such as in the Amazon.

So, instead of focusing on the massive permafrost and clathrate methane reservoirs we are instructed to worry about meat. Let's waste more time and energy before getting to the real problem which is fossil fuel consumption and extraction (e.g. tar sands).

[dohboi]

The leveling off of increases in methane for about a decade is not well understood. I have heard that some of it was from the filling in of swamps for agriculture, so maybe these are interrelated.

I don't think we can dismiss any significant contributor to GW, but obviously the main issue is, as you say, fossil fuels. If we fully develop the tar sands we are surely and totaly f'd.

[frankthetank]

Found this while reading about Wyoming agriculture...

The majority of the State is used for grazing and has a general appearance of dryness most of the time. The more abundant spring moisture brings a greener landscape often with myriad, varicolored wild flowers. As the season merges into summer, grasses and flowers turn brown, but continue to serve as food for livestock. Native grasses are nutritious, although scant. There are some very fine grazing areas with luxuriant grasses, especially in or near the mountains. Grass is generally so scarce that large ranches are required for profitable operation. The average for most cattle grazing is about 35 to 40 acres per cow.

[DrGray]

It ain't the methane that is the primary environmental issue with all the cow meat we produce. It's the resources. When you really look at the numbers, eating as much beef as we do in the west using the methods we do to produce it is worse for the environment than otherwise. The problem is just too many people eating too much bovine protein. One thing that would help is convincing Americans grass fed tastes better. I personally think so.

But you can pry that hamburger from my cold, dead fingers! The day I become a veggie is the day I'll volunteer myself to become soylent green.

There are bigger things to worry about out there than eating meat.

Let's not forget what the alternative to large ranches of cattle are (not speaking of feedlots here). Subdivisions. Thousands of acres of land, parceled into tiny lots, each filled with a 2500 sq foot energy hog, with 2 ICE's in the garage, and all the requisite pavement inbetween. I've lived and worked on a 13,000 acre cattle ranch and I've subsisted in a subdivision. Guess which one I think know was better for the environment?

[Tanada]

Indeed, it is the grain fed feedlot livestock that create the vast majority of problems in the meat industry, not the free range aka grass fed critters.