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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 22 Dec 2023, 17:29:43

Only Half of All Ford Dealers Agree To Sell EVs Next Year

The slack buy-in from Ford dealerships comes even after Ford relaxed its requirements for dealers in the EV dealer program last January that mandated fewer L2 chargers and extended installation deadlines.

Certified Ford EV dealers were once required to spend $500,000 for a single public DC fast charger, or $1 million if they wanted to be in the Elite tier of EV dealers. The extra $500,000 was for another fast charger and demo units, among other things. But the high price tag caused Ford dealers to balk.

Buick saw a similar engagement among its dealers last year, according to Electrek, with half of Buick dealers choosing buyouts of their franchises instead of selling EVs.

As a result, GM now has 47% fewer Buick dealers as of the end of this year compared to January. The hardline taken by GM with regard to its Buick dealers is in line with Buick’s ambitious plan to be all-electric by 2030.
https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News ... -Year.html

$500,000 for a single fast charger?
I had no idea, no idea.


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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Fri 22 Dec 2023, 18:13:10

The cost of an L2 charger isn't anywhere near half a million dollars and a car dealership likely would already have enough power capacity to support a couple of L2 chargers. Installing L3 chargers would potentially be a lot more expensive as a dealership would likely not have ready access to a 480 volt, three phase power source. There are other costs associated with gearing up to sell electric vehicles -- training service shop staff, new shop tools and stocking parts for example, That might explain the half million dollar cost because it certainly isn't explained by the cost of installing chargers.

Our area was developed in the mid-60's and houses were provided with a 100 amp service. Our house still has the original 100 amp service and our electrical panel is completely maxed out. We'd need to upgrade to a 200 amp service and a new panel before we could install an L2 charger.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby Pops » Sat 23 Dec 2023, 12:38:37

Just googled around and see that up to 50% of a dealers profit comes from parts and service. EVs have far fewer moving parts, just fewer parts in general, fewer fluids, fewer brake repairs (regen) not a lot of maintenance on the drive train at all. Of course new and improved always means new failure modes but those would be expected to resolve. Don't know how much this mau play in to not carrying EVs.

In advertising I worked with lots of car dealers, to a person they were liars and sharks and not particularly well educated or deep thinkers. I can fully imagine every one thinking the GW bit is just libruls trying to horn in on their god-given right to fleece the sheep and will soon blow over.

If it were not such, those paragons of the business community and social stewards would be at the forefront of the transition.

Makes my laugh just typing it...

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 23 Dec 2023, 13:44:42

Pops wrote:Just googled around and see that up to 50% of a dealers profit comes from parts and service. EVs have far fewer moving parts, just fewer parts in general, fewer fluids, fewer brake repairs (regen) not a lot of maintenance on the drive train at all.


The idea that EVs have fewer moving parts and hence would require fewer repairs and make less money for car dealer repair shops is one of the big lies that EV advocates have been pushing for years.

In reality, EVs have proven to both have more accidents and, even worse, to be hugely more expensive to repair then ICE cars----to the point that their insurance costs are much greater and they are often junked after minor fender bender accidents because its just so expensive to repair an EV.

electric-cars-totaled-after-minor-accidents

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 23 Dec 2023, 16:45:44

Pops got it right, EVs do have lower maintenance costs:

A new analysis by Consumer Reports finds that owners of plug-in electric vehicles are spending half as much on maintenance and repair as the owners of similar gas-powered vehicles.

Consumer Reports analyzed its 2019 and 2020 reliability survey data for thousands of electric and gas-powered vehicles, and found that drivers of electric vehicles are saving an average of 50% on maintenance and repair over the life of a vehicle compared to owners of gas-powered vehicles.

“Electric vehicle owners don’t need a coupon to get half-off typical maintenance and repair costs from their dealer, it comes standard!” says senior transportation policy analyst Chris Harto, who authored the analysis based on CR’s real-world data. “These savings are going a long way to offset the upfront costs for consumers.”

Average maintenance/repair costs over vehicle lifetime:

BEV (Battery-Electric Vehicle): $0.03/mile
PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle): $0.03/mile
ICE (Internal Combustion Engine): $0.06/mile
Consumer Reports

And EVs do not get into more accidents than ICE cars. They have less accidents. Although the accidents they do have cost more, the overall losses are lower for EVs:

Electric vehicles continue to show significantly lower collision and PDL claim frequencies compared with their conventional counterparts.

Image
Insurance losses of electric vehicles and their conventional counterparts

Safety and reliability
Tests conducted by the Allianz Center for Technology Automotive (AZT Automotive) have shown that the high voltage components of electric cars are well-protected and will not be affected in most crashes. Statistical evaluation of Allianz claims also shows that electric vehicles are less likely to be involved in accidents today.


Now not all EVs are alike, just like all ICE are not alike. Some EVs, Like Ford and GM, are making their battery packs modular to make them easier, and less costly, to repair. Other EVs, such as the Tesla model Y, have made it damn near impossible to repair the battery in the case of battery damage. So scrap rates are higher for that model. And Teslas are more expensive to purchase & repair and have more accidents than other model EVs and ICE vehicles. As a result they have more expensive insurance, with some insurers just flat out not covering them:

Code: Select all
Research found collision, property damage liability, and comprehensive claim frequencies for electric vehicles with gasoline powered variants and the Nissan Leaf to be lower than their comparison vehicles. The results for Tesla differed.

Model          Claim frequency vs ICE counterpart
EVs overall    -14%
Nissan Leaf     -7%
Tesla Model S   37%
Insurance losses – comparison of electric vehicles and their conventional counterparts

Many traditional insurance companies are raising rates for Tesla car owners or refusing to cover Tesla cars at all.

Our own insurance was raised $1,000 annually by Liberty Mutual earlier this year, with no claims, no infractions, and no good explanation as to why.
Study Says Tesla Poised To Disrupt Insurance Market Just As It Did The Auto Market

Tesla insurance was supposed to be Tesla's answer to surging insurance rates by insurance companies. But Tesla insurance has a poor reputation for customer service and actually paying out on claims:

Our team compared the availability, coverage options, costs and customer service scores of Tesla Insurance to determine how it ranks versus leading car insurance brands. We found that drivers aren’t always satisfied with Tesla Insurance due to its relatively poor customer service standards and pricey plans for car coverage.

Key Takeaways:

* Our team gave Tesla Insurance only 7.7 out of 10.0 stars due to its limited availability, poor industry reputation and relatively high premiums.
* The average cost to insure a 2022 Tesla model with full coverage is $3,007 annually or $251 per month, which is 50% higher than the national average.

Customers on the BBB site[Better Business Bureau] give Tesla 1.1 out of 5.0 stars and it has a high number of complaints, even considering its size.
Tesla Insurance

While some customers in online posts have praised the Tesla's low insurance premiums, others complain of waiting weeks or months for payouts and repairs, and an inability to reach claims adjusters.

Tesla officials have said they started the insurer to solve a problem: Prospective customers walking away from car sales after getting sky-high insurance quotes, based on the electric vehicles’ high collision-repair costs. Despite promising to revolutionize automobile insurance, Tesla has at times run the business on a shoestring budget, at one point with only about a dozen adjusters who were quickly overwhelmed by hundreds of claims, according to several sources familiar with the insurer’s operations. The insurer’s problems fit into a pattern of rushed and sloppy management leading to consumer and worker harms across Musk’s empire of technology and manufacturing firms.

Complaints about Tesla Insurance are drawing scrutiny from state regulators and the plaintiffs’ bar. The Ohio Department of Insurance at least twice this year determined that Tesla had violated the state’s insurance regulations in handling claims, including for a lack of timely communications with a policyholder, according to correspondence obtained by Reuters through a public records request. The department was considering opening formal investigations, the records show. The agency declined to comment.

The accounts of customers interviewed by Reuters contrast sharply with Tesla’s bold promises to policyholders. On an earnings call in April 2022, Musk said: “Basically, the customer experience is just vastly better because if there’s an accident, there’s no argument. We’ll repair it immediately.”
Drivers Unhappy with Tesla’s Car Insurance Claims Service, Payouts

Personally, even if Ford and GM have more easily repairable battery packs, I don't have a lot of faith in those manufacturers overall. Nor in Tesla's high purchase, repair, and insurance costs. I'm going to stick with my Toyota. I'm waiting to see something like an EV Corolla or Camry.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 23 Dec 2023, 18:50:07

Well frankly maintenance cost is negligible at this point. A well maintained ICE car at 8 years old is still a viable vehicle, good for another decade. An overpriced comparable EV on the other hand is basically worthless as it's neared the end of its battery life. The secret to EV ownership was to sell it at the 4-year mark but of course the used prices have collapsed so that's out the window.

I am afraid there are no bright spots left to discuss, unless you want to cheer-lead they hype of "New" battery technologies, none of which are proven.

Used EV Prices Plummet As Hybrids Hold Strong

Note: they make a clear distinction between the two.

...iSeeCars.com ...reveals that used EV prices are down 33.7 percent while the average used combustion car price is only down 5.1 percent. The iSeeCars research included an analysis of over 2.3 million new and 1- to 5-year-old used cars—both evaluated to compare the EV market to other segments, including hybrids and traditional combustion vehicles.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelhar ... 0ae36b3980

33%, that must be close to the losses in the stock market for the sector?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 23 Dec 2023, 20:08:12

Don't forget that used EV prices surged even more than that last year because of pandemic-induced shortages. A 33% fall in prices this year is just offsetting some of that crazy surge from last year as the shortages have eased up.

Aug 29, 2022 - The latest analysis from iSeeCars.com reveals just how much more expensive used EVs are, and recent MSRP hikes are driving new EV prices even higher.

Used Electric Car Prices Up 54.3% In One Year
Could the car price bubble be finally coming to an end? If you’re in the market for an electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid, we’re far from it. According to data from iSeeCars, used electric car prices saw an increase of 54.3% from July of 2021 to July 2022.
Electric Car Prices Are Rising Faster Than ICE Cars

Also don't forget that EV sales are still growing. Meanwhile ICE sales peaked in 2017 and have been losing ground ever since.

US full electric vehicle (BEV) sales were up 143% in the 3rd quarter of 2023 compared to the 3rd quarter of 2021. Anyone who tells you the BEV market isn’t growing or demand isn’t strong is either uninformed or biased — don’t be fooled! The Tesla Model Y and Model 3 still dominate sales, accounting for 50% of US BEV sales, but there were also notable performances from the Chevy Bolt, Rivian’s EVs, the Ford Mustang Mach-E, the Hyundai IONIQ 5, and the Volkswagen ID.4.
US EV Sales Up 143%

* Annual passenger electric vehicle sales are on track to reach around 14.2 million units in 2023, up from 6.5 million in 2021 and 10.5 million in 2022. Some 15.5% of new cars sold globally in the first half of this year were electric, up from 8.9% in 2021 and 14% in 2022. Spending on clean road transport globally is set to reach $685 billion this year.

* Many of the indicators in this report are pointing in the right direction, and EV adoption is growing globally.

* Sales of internal-combustion engine (ICE) vehicles peaked in 2017 and are now undergoing a long-term, structural decline. [ICE sales declined] on average 6% each year since 2019. In 2022, only 59 million ICE cars were sold globally excluding hybrids – 5% fewer than a year earlier, and 29% fewer than at their 2017 peak.

* EVs are quickly displacing ICEs. As ICE sales have tumbled, sales of battery-electric vehicles have taken off. EV sales were 68% higher in 2022 than the year before and 253% higher than in 2019.
Zero-Emission Vehicles Factbook
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 23 Dec 2023, 22:43:09

kublikhan wrote:EVs do not get into more accidents than ICE cars. They have less accidents.


Pull the other one.

Ahem.

There have been quite a few recent news stories about EVs getting in MORE accidents......and it's not even close. EVs have a 50% HIGHER rate of one car accidents.

electric-cars-involved-in-more-accidents-than-regular-vehicles-study-shows

Thats a way higher rate of accidents.

How to explain a 50% higher accident rate for EVS?

Image
EVs have a 50% HIGHER rate of one car accidents.

It seems to me that there are only three possible explanations for the much higher rate of accidents in EVs. (1) EV drivers are bad drivers or (2) EVs are bad cars or (3) some combination of 1 and 2.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 24 Dec 2023, 01:06:54

That study has since been taken down and the original company that published it has apologized for it:

We very much regret the confusion caused regarding the safety of electric vehicles and wish to express our sincere apologies.


Plenty of other studies though:

Electric vehicles continue to show significantly lower collision and PDL claim frequencies compared with their conventional counterparts.
Insurance losses of electric vehicles and their conventional counterparts

Statistical evaluation of Allianz claims also shows that electric vehicles are less likely to be involved in accidents today.


Research found collision, property damage liability, and comprehensive claim frequencies for electric vehicles with gasoline powered variants and the Nissan Leaf to be lower than their comparison vehicles.
Insurance losses – comparison of electric vehicles and their conventional counterparts

Nov. 8, 2023 - Mitchell, an Enlyte company and leading technology and information provider for the Property & Casualty (P&C) claims and Collision Repair industries, today released its latest trends report: Plugged-In: EV Collision Insights. This quarter's report examines total loss frequency for electric and ICE automobiles. In the U.S. and Canada from Q1 to Q3 2023, the EV total loss rate was 7.25% for models 2020 and newer. Luxury ICE automobiles manufactured over the same time period and with a comparable actual cash value (ACV) had a rate of 7.47% versus 8.49% for all ICE vehicles.

"Many believe that auto insurers are writing EVs off as a total loss more often than their ICE counterparts of a similar model year and ACV, even with only minor damage," said Ryan Mandell, director of claims performance at Mitchell. "Our data simply does not support that conclusion. In fact, even though an EV's lithium-ion battery significantly increases the likelihood of a total loss outcome, we do not see these automobiles declared total losses more often than ICE alternatives."
Mitchell Reports a Lower Total Loss Rate for Electric Vehicles

Data from the Highway Loss Data Institute affirms the IIHS findings with collisions in EVs resulting in less injury claims. Gas-powered cars had 40% more injury claims. The automatic crash protection features also help reduce injuries, and if used properly, the advanced driving assistance features help avoid crashes.
Sizing Up the Safety of Electric vs. Gas
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 24 Dec 2023, 04:36:15

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby mousepad » Sun 24 Dec 2023, 08:53:11

kublikhan wrote:
Data from the Highway Loss Data Institute affirms the IIHS findings with collisions in EVs resulting in less injury claims. Gas-powered cars had 40% more injury claims. The automatic crash protection features also help reduce injuries, and if used properly, the advanced driving assistance features help avoid crashes.
Sizing Up the Safety of Electric vs. Gas


Too bad no reason is given for the findings in all them studies.

Could it be that EV are driven short distances with mostly fresh and alert drivers?
Could it be that EV are driven in rich neighborhoods with good and safe streets?
Could it be that EV are less old having all them collision avoidance systems in place?
Could it be that EV being less old are in much better state of maintenance?
Could it be that EV being generally expensive are out of reach for many young, irresponsible drivers?

All them burning questions with no answers. Makes me toss and turn in bed.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 24 Dec 2023, 13:05:20

mousepad wrote:
kublikhan wrote:
Data from the Highway Loss Data Institute affirms the IIHS findings with collisions in EVs resulting in less injury claims. Gas-powered cars had 40% more injury claims. The automatic crash protection features also help reduce injuries, and if used properly, the advanced driving assistance features help avoid crashes.
Sizing Up the Safety of Electric vs. Gas


Too bad no reason is given for the findings in all them studies.

Could it be that EV are driven short distances with mostly fresh and alert drivers?
Could it be that EV are driven in rich neighborhoods with good and safe streets?
Could it be that EV are less old having all them collision avoidance systems in place?
Could it be that EV being less old are in much better state of maintenance?
Could it be that EV being generally expensive are out of reach for many young, irresponsible drivers?

All them burning questions with no answers. Makes me toss and turn in bed.
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all of you.
They do a mileage adjustment to make sure they are comparing to the same miles driven EV vs ICE. They also compare vehicles manufactured in the same years to control for vehicle age. Other variables were also tracked including driver age, gender, marital status, vehicle density(number of vehicles per square mile), etc.

As for the reason EVs have fewer injury claims, I have read several reasons for this. EVs have a lower center of gravity which leads to better stability. Better stability means less of a chance of getting into a collision in the first place. And lower center of gravity means less of a chance of a rollover. Rollover accidents are particularly nasty when it comes to injuries. EVs have collision avoidance systems which again, reduces chance of an accident in the first place and reduces chance of injuries when collisions do occur. No bulky engine in the front so EVs have better crumple zones, which reduces injuries. EVs have less fires than ICE vehicles.

Center of gravity. EVs have low centers of gravity with the motor and battery located at the bottom of the car. This enhances the traction of EVs, which also improves their stability and safety and reduces the risk of a rollover.

Fire risk. While any vehicle can catch fire, the risk for EVs is far lower. Gas is volatile and flammable and a damaged gas tank can turn a simple collision into a deadly accident. A study showed 1,530 ICE-powered cars were involved in fires per 100,000 sold, whereas EVs had 25 fires per 100,000 sold.
What Makes EVs Safer Than Gasoline-Powered Vehicles?

Electric cars don’t have a bulky engine taking up space in the front of the vehicle, which allows for more crumple zones to absorb impact in the event of a collision.

Vehicle manufacturers like Tesla and Volkswagen are taking safety a step further by adding advanced safety features to their EVs. Volkswagen has developed an advanced safety system called IQ.DRIVE, which includes features such as lane departure warning, adaptive cruise control, and park assist. These features can help prevent accidents caused by driver error or inattention and can make the driving experience more comfortable and convenient. Furthermore, the latest Volkswagen electric vehicles come with an automatic emergency braking system that can detect pedestrians and other vehicles and can help prevent collisions. This feature along with other advanced safety systems help make Volkswagen EVs some of the safest cars on the road.
Electric Cars vs. ICE Vehicles: A Safety Showdown


Merry Christmas everyone! I hope you all have a wonderful holiday :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby mousepad » Sun 24 Dec 2023, 17:11:51

kublikhan wrote:
As for the reason EVs have fewer injury claims, I have read several reasons for this. EVs have a lower center of gravity which leads to better stability.

But they are also heavier. Heavy car = heavy damage.

Better stability means less of a chance of getting into a collision in the first place. And lower center of gravity means less of a chance of a rollover. Rollover accidents are particularly nasty when it comes to injuries.

Rollover problems applies mostly for tall trucks and SUV. Was it taken into account that EV are mostly sedan?
Modern cars have active rollover protection and it applies to both EV and gas.


EVs have collision avoidance systems which again, reduces chance of an accident in the first place and reduces chance of injuries when collisions do occur.

That is not specific to EV. My gas car also has collision avoidance, because its newer. My old car does not.

Fire risk. While any vehicle can catch fire, the risk for EVs is far lower.

We;ve already established that this is only half-true. Gas car catch on fire more often, but it's usually benign. If an ev catches on fire, kiss the surroundings goodbye. (BTW, water runoff used to extinguish an EV battery fire is considered hazardous waste in my state. Do you know how much it costs to clean that mess up? All 20k gallons? It ain't cheap. And I'm sure it aint' part of the insurance studies you presented.)

Vehicle manufacturers like Tesla and Volkswagen are taking safety a step further by adding advanced safety features to their EVs. Volkswagen has developed an advanced safety system called IQ.DRIVE, which includes features such as lane departure warning, adaptive cruise control, and park assist.

Has nothing to do with EV.

The conclusion is obvious. EVs are simply magically better, and proof ain't needed because we have faith. All hail to the magic of EVs.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 24 Dec 2023, 18:42:18

mousepad wrote:Rollover problems applies mostly for tall trucks and SUV. Was it taken into account that EV are mostly sedan?
Modern cars have active rollover protection and it applies to both EV and gas.
And yet rollovers still occur in modern vehicles. More people died in rollovers in cars than in trucks or SUVs.

Code: Select all
Rollover
A total of 7,640 passenger vehicle occupants died in rollover crashes in 2021. Crashes in which a vehicle rolled over accounted for 29 percent of all passenger vehicle occupant deaths in 2021.

Death breakdown for rollovers
Vehicle type  Deaths
Car           3,060
SUV           2,507
Pickup        1,955
Fatality Facts 2021

Optimal Crumple Zone
⇒ The absence of an engine in the front of the vehicle improves the crumple zone of EVs.

⇒ The centered location of battery packs vastly reduces the torque forces in a car accident.

⇒ In terms of frontal crash tests, EVs are comparable to high-end ICE vehicles.

Reduce Rollover Risk
⇒ 2% of crashes involve a rollover, but they cause 35% of deaths.

⇒ Large battery on the base lowers the center of gravity and reduces the rollover risk for EVs.

⇒ Tesla Model S achieves a record low 5.7% rollover likelihood in a single-vehicle crash, and Tesla Model X achieves the best rating among comparable SUVs.

Better Maneuverability and Control
⇒ Electric vehicles benefit from better dynamic stability due to a centered battery pack and electronic control of power and braking.

Rollovers Have a Higher Fatality Rate than Any other Kind of Crashes.

EVs are Less Likely than ICE Vehicles — including Luxury and Most Popular Cars — to Roll over Due to Better Stability.
EV Safety Benefits — Crumple Zones, Rollover Results, Vehicle Control

mousepad wrote:That is not specific to EV. My gas car also has collision avoidance, because its newer. My old car does not.
Advanced safety systems are not exclusive to EVs, but EVs are more likely to come with these features.

Electric vehicles are the most advanced vehicles currently running on the road. There are a host of safety features included in these vehicles as both standard inclusions and optional add-ons. These advanced features form a part of the safety net integrated into these vehicles.
Electric Vehicles with Advanced Safety Measures

* Global automakers such as BMW and Volkswagen are tapping on advanced tech such as driver-assist software to compete in the world’s largest EV market — China.

* “China’s domestic brands are leading the market in the development and implementation of advanced assisted driving systems, capitalizing on their early-entry advantages in the electric and intelligent vehicle sector,” said research firm Canalys in a recent report.

Global electric vehicle makers are tapping advanced technology to vie with each other and domestic brands in the intensively competitive Chinese market. “China’s domestic brands are leading the market in the development and implementation of advanced assisted driving systems, capitalizing on their early-entry advantages in the electric and intelligent vehicle sector.”

“China auto makers are accelerating vehicle platform, technology upgrade or innovation, leading to outstanding user experience. China EV products are much more competitive than before, and China will continue to see EV penetration expanding.”

But these global players are now stepping up their efforts.

On Friday, BMW China announced that it is accelerating the development of hands-free autonomous driving features, also known as Level 3 or L3 functions. BMW China said it plans to roll those out by end of 2023 or early 2024 and will ensure compliance with local regulations.

L3 autonomous driving has not been widely approved in China, though some companies including domestic EV maker Xpeng has been authorized to test the technology. Last week, Germany’s Volkswagen
Group said it is investing approximately $700 million in Xpeng and taking a 4.99% stake in the company.

“We are now accelerating the expansion of our local electric portfolio and at the same time preparing for the next innovation step,” Ralf Brandstätter, Volkswagen AG board member for China, said in a company statement.

Volkswagen and Xpeng will co-develop two new EVs that will incorporate its advanced driver-assist software for the Chinese market and aims to roll them out in 2026.
Automakers promote advanced tech to compete in China — the world’s top EV market

EV active safety is a key innovation area in electric vehicles

EV active safety refers to the various systems and technologies implemented in electric vehicles (EVs) to enhance safety and prevent accidents. These systems utilize sensors, control algorithms, and actuators to monitor the vehicle’s behavior, detect potential hazards, and take corrective actions in real-time. EV active safety systems aim to improve traction, stability, and maneuverability by actively controlling the vehicle’s acceleration, braking, and steering, thereby reducing the risk of accidents and improving overall safety during EV operation.

Hitachi is one of the leading patent filers in EV active safety. It filed patents for methods and system of detecting obstacles and mitigating collisions. Hitachi has a strong track record in commercializing EV active safety solutions and contributes to vehicle safety and environmental sustainability.
Electric vehicles: the leading companies in EV active safety revealed

mousepad wrote:We;ve already established that this is only half-true. Gas car catch on fire more often, but it's usually benign. If an ev catches on fire, kiss the surroundings goodbye. (BTW, water runoff used to extinguish an EV battery fire is considered hazardous waste in my state. Do you know how much it costs to clean that mess up? All 20k gallons? It ain't cheap. And I'm sure it aint' part of the insurance studies you presented.)
There are plenty of ICE fires that are not benign, both in in terms of fatalities and property damage. ICE are not only more likely to catch fire, they are also more likely to explode, where EVs are more likely to burn longer. And yes, EV fires are harder to put out. But you asked about injuries did you not? If you want to argue EV fires are harder to put out, use excessive amounts of water, can reignite, etc, we are in agreement there.

10+ Million Fires, 19,000 Deaths, And 70,000 Injuries From Internal Combustion Vehicles
According to the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), over 10 million highway vehicle fires caused about 19,000 deaths and over 70,000 injuries in the United States from 1980–2015.
10+ Million Fires, 19,000 Deaths, And 70,000 Injuries From Internal Combustion Vehicles

mousepad wrote:The conclusion is obvious. EVs are simply magically better, and proof ain't needed because we have faith. All hail to the magic of EVs.
It's not magic, it's what reality is telling us. The guys writing the checks for injuries are telling us EVs are safer as they have to write bigger and more checks for the ICE claims. The guys rating the cars are telling us EVs are safer. The guys responsible for highway safety are telling us this.

Decreased Injuries
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that electric car passengers involved in car accidents had a lower rate of injury than those in ICE or diesel-powered vehicles.


Evidence is growing that electric vehicles are at least as safe as conventional ones, with two more vehicles that run exclusively on battery power earning safety awards from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. In addition, an updated analysis of insurance data shows injury claims are substantially less frequent for such vehicles.

The study looks at electric and conventional versions of nine models from 2011 to 2019, yielding more than twice as large a sample as a previous study conducted in 2017. It examines collision, property damage liability and injury claims.

The updated data show that rates of injury claims related to the drivers and passengers of electric vehicles were more than 40 percent lower than for identical conventional models over 2011-19.
With more electric vehicles comes more proof of safety
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 25 Dec 2023, 17:13:52

mousepad wrote:Too bad no reason is given for the findings in all them studies.

Could it be that EV are driven short distances with mostly fresh and alert drivers?
Could it be that EV are driven in rich neighborhoods with good and safe streets?..


When half the world's politicians are behind them, when Wall street is making a fortune peddling the stocks, when banks are happily lending billions to see them built, don't expect clarity or honesty in any data related to the EV. The simple fact that for the longest time they had been adding gasoline powered hybrids into the sales figures is proof of shady mathematics.

When I see something I want to buy and go looking for reviews I ignore the Positive ones because they are meaningless. I mean I'm already positive about it, I don't need reinforcement. I need to search out the negative ones and then see if you can live with the issues brought up. EV reviews are all negative, who wants a car you have wait hours charging before you can continue on your journey? Obviously 1% of the US population. But a greater percent than that believe the Lunar landings were faked so we're not necessarily talking about intelligent people here.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 26 Dec 2023, 17:03:27

Here's another bad sign for EVs.....the legal sharks are after them....

There have been so many problems with EVs there are now law firms that SPECIALIZE in suing EV owners after accidents

personal-injury/car-accidents/are-crashes-with-electric-vehicles-more-dangerous-than-other-car-accidents

Apparently there is concern that EVs run over pedestrians more than other ICE cars because the electric motors don't make any noise. Well.....whose fault in that? It must the EV OWNER's fault for operating a dangerous vehicle.......or so say the legal sharks. And those EVs are MUCH heavier than comparable ICE cars so they cause much more damage in an accident. Again....the sharks lawyers say sue 'em for driving a dangerous car.

Image
Have you been injured by an EV? Just call the experienced lawyers at Doowie Cheatum and Howe for help in suing the @##%$ who ran you over in their dangerously quiet EV....

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 26 Dec 2023, 18:56:58

I had heard that complaint about quiet EV’s years ago. There were proposals to give them added noise.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 26 Dec 2023, 22:29:27

Newfie wrote:I had heard that complaint about quiet EV’s years ago. There were proposals to give them added noise.


Funnily enough I remember a story of a fellow who made a digital recording of his mustang engine and plays it through speakers under the hood of his EV whenever he is driving on city streets so everyone hears him sound just like a regular ICE car in high pedestrian areas. How true the story is is up to the reader, I personally have my doubts but perhaps his lawyer advised him to make his car noisier on city streets. If that is true expect all EV to be equipped with some kind of low speed noise maker software soon.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 29 Dec 2023, 16:07:42

Image

Yes they sold more EV in the US this year than the year prior, but the rate of increase has been steadily declining since 2022. Of course once it reaches zero and begins to decline then EV sales themselves will begin to decline. What is interesting about this falling rate of sales is that is has occurred over a period when the cars themselves have seen their prices progressively slashed.

The herd likes to buy at the top, they like to buy at a high price because... Well because they are clueless basically. We all know the phenomena, and more often than not, like with computer sales in 1999, it gets a helping hand from the establishment. You could buy a PC or laptop from 2000 onward for nearly half the price they were in the 90's but sales were down because anyone and everyone had rushed out in 1999 to upgrade because of the Y2K swindle. Oh yes it was a swindle alright, pushed by computer manufacturers and backed up by the cardboard cutout politicians who always step in to Lie if the profit is big enough.

No one hardly questioned why the world's computer systems didn't crash as predicted, they were all just glad the lights stayed on. And yes there were plenty of computers of the old stripe that did just fine. Mine included, though I was ready to reset the clock to 1990 if it went spastic on me. The world must change to EV, we must have zero ice sales after 2032, or whatever arbitrary date the government spat out. But that was just another Lie to fuel sales, to fuel debt growth, to fuel monetary expansion. Just as the Shale Revolution was a lie promoted by Presidents, but it did the same for the balance sheets, increasing debt and money supply. Do you still believe extracting oil from shales etc is highly profitable? Well then you'll have no problem believing it when they start using coal.

Does anyone here understand what the 1 Trillion in interest payments the US federal government now pays each year implies? It means more money must be created and put into circulation so it can be taxed! But even then it's not enough. A lot of that interest repayment comes out of newly printed government bonds. Yes, directly creating debt to pay interest on former debt. If you look at the trillions that is created to fund the military, aid to israel and the ukraine, to fund corona virus bailout packages, you will find that a proportion of it is siphoned off to help pay this interest.

The EV transition was never going to happen, and the fact that it's stalling out now is no surprise. They are not PCs and laptops, they are Segways, expensive toys for inner city hipsters and Eco-warriors, people with shallow minds that can't look beyond the glossy brochure to see how the cars are actually made from oil and run on coal.

Electric vehicle sales growth slows as more car buyers turn to hybrids and many drivers in red states shun the technology altogether
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... Tesla.html

Brussels delays electric car tariffs as UK EV sales slump Postponement of new trade rules comes amid a collapse in private buyer demand for EVs
5 December 2023 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... les-slump/

How Electric Vehicles Are Losing Momentum with U.S. Buyers, in Charts https://www.forbes.com/sites/edgarsten/ ... 2ccebc7985

Record Global Gasoline Consumption Defies IEA Forecast (& EV Hype) https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News ... ecast.html

Gasoline powered Hybrids.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 14

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 29 Dec 2023, 19:27:42

Lucky,

Are you a reader? If so pick up Thinking Fast and Slow. It is an expose by a psychologist, a Nobel prize winner, in Economics. He goes into research on how people thing and make decisions. It is not logical and not pretty.

I found it a formative influence in my thinking.
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