[Demoth]

Really, at this point- it is not about excuses and missed deadlines. Only a handful of investors and zen stock holders have anything to gripe over.

The science behind a barium/ceramic super capacitor with almost instant charge times, very long life and battery like storage capacity is possible. EEStore's initial claims look plain outlandish.

So, it's really just a fun game at this point, watching to see if this silver bullet is the real McCoy. And silver bullet it would be. Just the shift from lithium batteries to bulk ceramics coated with barium sprinkles is huge, economically and environmentally.

I also agree that if this technology was everything Richard Weir has initially claimed, someone would have informed the White House by now and EEstor would be front page news. Or for the nuts out there, Weir would have been killed by black helicopters by now. I also agree it makes zero sense for EEstor to be working on the full assembly line before a working prototype.

The fact EEstor had invested so soon into production then suddenly went silent lends itself to guess they encountered a major problem that made this tech unsuitable for auto useage. Either the ceramics are too delicate, the temp range is too narrow, the unit explodes violently on impact or it plain just does not work. Any number of things could have happened.

The notion this was and is a scam is very possible but makes about as much sense as starting a production line before a working prototype. Small initial investments considering the amount confirmed spent and little potential for a big pump and dump since so many eyes are on them. Most scam artist would also steer well away from defense contractors simply due to routine security checks.

So, with a big grain of salt and a lot of cynicsm, I follow EEstor simply because it's the most credible of all the snake oil.

[BigTex]

Richard Weir hard at work at his Austin facility...

[BigTex]

Back in 2006-08-25 you had more faith when you introduced this thread:

This technology is a lot more interesting than most alternative energy solutions. Think about it before you say it won't work and can't be scaled to replace fossil fuel dependent systems.

Such bitterness

Dorothy had a lot of faith too when she first arrived at the Emerald City.

[kublikhan]

Simply coating a sheet of paper with ink made of carbon nanotubes and silver nanowires makes a highly conductive storage device, said Yi Cui, assistant professor of materials science and engineering. The paper supercapacitor may last through 40,000 charge-discharge cycles -- at least an order of magnitude more than lithium batteries. The nanomaterials also make ideal conductors because they move electricity along much more efficiently than ordinary conductors, Cui said.

A paper supercapacitor may be especially useful for applications like electric or hybrid cars, which depend on the quick transfer of electricity. The paper supercapacitor's high surface-to-volume ratio gives it an advantage. "This technology has potential to be commercialized within a short time," said Peidong Yang, professor of chemistry at the University of California-Berkeley. "I don't think it will be limited to just energy storage devices," he said. "This is potentially a very nice, low-cost, flexible electrode for any electrical device." Cui predicts the biggest impact may be in large-scale storage of electricity on the distribution grid. Excess electricity generated at night, for example, could be saved for peak-use periods during the day. Wind farms and solar energy systems also may require storage.

Dip Ordinary Paper Into Ink Infused With Nanotubes and Nanowires to Create an Instant Battery

Supercapacitors based on CNT-conductive paper show excellent performance. When only CNT mass is considered, a specific capacitance of 200 F/g, a specific energy of 30–47 Watt-hour/kilogram (Wh/kg), a specific power of 200,000 W/kg, and a stable cycling life over 40,000 cycles are achieved. These values are much better than those of devices on other flat substrates, such as plastics. Even in a case in which the weight of all of the dead components is considered, a specific energy of 7.5 Wh/kg is achieved. In addition, this conductive paper can be used as an excellent lightweight current collector in lithium-ion batteries to replace the existing metallic counterparts. This work suggests that our conductive paper can be a highly scalable and low-cost solution for high-performance energy storage devices.

Highly conductive paper for energy-storage devices

[yesplease]

The energy per unit weight of the entire assembly, or even the CNT mass alone, isn't sufficient for most PHEVs/EVs. It could certainly be integrated given the high power output compared to weight, but as the only storage medium I don't think it would fly. Otoh if it approaches ~$500/kWh it could really do well for grid or off-grid energy storage.

[JRP3]

The paper supercapacitor may last through 40,000 charge-discharge cycles -- at least an order of magnitude more than lithium batteries.

I recently saw a PDF on A123's new cells showing in excess of 100,000 cycles. Only theoretical I assume but we are basically talking about a battery that will outlast us.

[yesplease]

No freaking way! Aging would be the only concern in terms of wear. Got a link?

[JRP3]

In this thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=155801

[yesplease]

Well shoot, given current pricing (~$850/kWh based on what I've heard from a seller in China), that's an easy 1c/kWh for storage. If they could make large formats it should go over pretty well for high class wind power and V2G. The biggest issue would be optimizing pack size in order to minimize the costs of aging for stationary use.

[JRP3]

Here's an image of it in case you can't view attachments at DIY

[mos6507]

That cycle life is a little hard to believe. Only lithium titanates were getting that kind of rated life. It has to be a typo or something.

[yesplease]

It could be, go ask the EERE/DOE. It kinda seems like a big goof for them, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. As of 2006 calendar life was pegged at ~15 years to ~75% capacity. It looks like they're trying to extend that, so 30 years to 75% capacity could be possible.

Edit- On page 7 of the pdf I linked the stated performance goal is 300,000 25Wh cycles, so the 100,000 cycle figure at least seems to have a similar reference in the same paper. It could be correct.

[JRP3]

Also note that they are only cycling to 40-50% DOD which helps cycle life. Still very impressive, as most trips will shallow cycle the average battery pack.

[evilgenius]

Yeah, I wonder about supercapacitors as the sole power supply for electric autos, but looking at this has made me think about the future. If the path of development for this runs like that of computer processors it really could be true. If the path is nothing like that there is still the potential that they bring to the great issue of alt energy and the grid. Supercapacitors could go a long way toward providing power when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining.

[Daniel_Plainview]

Tick tock ... tick tock ... tick tock ...

Hit or Miss?: The Clock is Ticking on These 5 Greentech Deadlines

EEStor to ZENN: The CEO of electric vehicle maker ZENN, Ian Clifford, has been waiting for stealthy ultracapacitor company EEStor to deliver to Zenn its first commercial units by the end of this year, reported The Toronto Star in October. So? Well, we haven’t heard about that breakthrough yet and EEStor has been telling the media that 2010 is now the “make or break year.” Zenn has said it is basically betting the entirety of its business model on building vehicles around EEStor’s technology, so the milestone is kind of a big deal. Sounds like yet another missed deadline for the company.

[gnm]

I wonder if auntie-d and oily bought a bunch of stock! How are things in corny land guys? Do you have flying cars there yet?

Reminds me of the "solar-ball" guy I had an argument on here with years ago. Was going to change the world! What a joke.

Kind of like the vapid promises of hopeechangee.....

-G

[Demoth]

Of interest- this link was a recent Lockheed conference as of this post. Watch the two interviews after the junk at the start (1 min in). Maybe watch the video first before being influenced by my own opinion.


http://www.youtube.com/user/eestorblog# ... UKGpqdad0E

These people are Lockheed execs (you can Google them). Look at the facial reactions. Note how the Lockheed F.B... (I mean) media relations woman had to rein in the VP of Energy Initiative over his obvious excitment about EESTOR. She starts hissing at him as soon as EESTOR is mentioned (turn up your volume) and gets more frantic till he stops. Then observe his fearful glances at her as he tries to divert conversation to solar storage. Media relations seems like a pretty powerful department at Lockheed Land...

In the second interview, I would suggest that Ken Van Meter was more afraid than annoyed when EESTOR was mentioned. Of course, these are all just subjective interpretations of what I watched. *Shrug*

So, as I see things, EESTOR may be known of widely within Lockheed Martin and, at the very least, the science behind it is promising enough to continue trying to integrate it into a wider sector than publicized. There is also some incentive to keep it all secret without discrediting Weir as a con artist. Lockheed is staking their reputation in a way on Weir at least thinking he is onto something.

It is possible this is nothing more than some cheap and well crafted distraction to keep the competition on edge. Other possible tin foil cap theories as to the silence are that higher ups know about the feasibility of fast implementation but want to let China burn more money in lithium infrastructures. Or maybe someone wants Zenn, a Canadian company, to lose patience and sell it's rights to a front entity? Maybe I'm just making wild guesses? Or maybe EESTOR is all bunk? (The answer is the second from the last)!

Either way, few things EESTOR related make sense. 'Missles and Fire Control', by the way, is code for 'Super Secret Stuff that can be Locked Away Indefinitely'. Even Chris Wallace wouldn't get a call back if he left a message there.

Ultimately, battery tech is out (not dead though). Super caps could be (almost everything else is!) far more scaleable upwards exponentially with advances in materials and nano-technology than chemical storage. If EESTOR isn't the one, someone pretty soon will be.

By the way, just incase EESTOR is legit and something fishy does happen, I suggest a wide variety of people archive the actual videos from links and such like this that they come across and are verified!

[mos6507]

"Look at the facial reactions."

I wonder what their facial reactions are now, considering EESTOR just blew its most recent milestone.