[vtsnowedin]

How many times have we seen a supposedly trained policeman empty a full clip into some perp that was already down after the first shot? Something about the adrenaline in a real shooting situation keeps the trigger finger twitching long after the need has ended.
But to be realistic few have the training or the nerves to use just one or two shots as needed. And as to gun size almost any pistol will do inside the confines of a building. Even a 25 automatic. It is not the size of the gun but the ability of the shooter as a perp missed with a 500 Ruger is just as missed as one with a 22 long rifle.

[theluckycountry]

Why is housing prices falling somewhat such a big problem. With all the complaining about housing prices rising, one would think housing prices falling to more moderate levels (without an outright rapid crash) would be a WELCOME thing.

It's a problem because the debt based economy relies on it as a major driver, the major driver in our case. I agree with your points as to why falling prices are good thing but that's like saying that it would be a good thing if the Dow Jones started to drop and drop. That's good if you don't have any money in it. It's a case of damned if you do damned if you don't I am afraid. When housing prices fall as with high interest rates, thousands begin to lose their homes, builders go bust, and the people that would normally buy sit on the sidelines waiting to see how low they will go.

No one wants to buy a home today if it will be 8 or 10% cheaper in a years time. That's why we have a rental crisis here too, lots of empty homes and units that no one will buy but that no one can live in. Personally it doesn't effect me, it's a popcorn eating exercise but I know many are not in my position.

[Newfie]

Thank Hod I have no real experience with in’s and out’s of shooting people. N my mind if you have to shoot someone you are having an extremely bad day.

I suspect it is very rare for someone to wake up in the morning and say “This is a great day to kill someone.” Typically some long chain of events has to happen to bring the event about.

Dvery time it happens there is massive failure. The gun, the bulletX the technique are just the last stages of a long, ling list of failures and missed opportunity for intervention. I feel a certain sympathy for all parties involved. No matter how justified it is likely to manor league screw up their life.

[AdamB]

Newfie - The big problem with popping off 9 rounds in a crowded restaurant is that all 9 rounds are going to hit something: the bad guy, the wall...or another customer.

Hence the need for practice. Although there is a philosophy that round counting while perforating a perpetrator is a distraction, and you indeed do keep firing until the perpatreator is down and has stopped twitching.

Even rounds hitting the bad guy can be pass thru's that hit a customer. Most poorly trained will load autos with full metal jackets that can easily pass thru a couple of sheet rocked walls...very bad choice for home defense. Two well aimed 9 mill rounds with the right bullet design would have put the bad guy down quick. And if you didn't see the video the distance looked to be about 4' or so. You didn't need to be John Wayne to make that shot. LOL.

Plus he was shooting the guy in the back, that should have allowed him to have some calmer nerves while doing the perforating.

Adam - My small pouch can only handle the sub nose...no pockets on wheelchair. Two rounds center mass with a .38 with soft lead hollow points. At any range I would likely shoot almost instantly lethal.

Maybe. I've got 2 38/357 combos, one double action, one single, neither snubbys. And having perforated more than a few animals of various sizes with far more powerful firearms, I have doubts on humans being much different in the "instant lights out" department unless you put that round in exactly the right spot to flip the switch instantly. A snubby doesn't make that easy, and soft lead in 38 is as likely to begin corkscrewing around as soon as it begins its perforating journey regardless. Most types of bullets do I imagine.

Been a while but I've been shot at...a lot. So, panicking wouldn't be a problem since I don't take it personal anymore.

Me too. Little old lady with a shotgun while I was hiding behind a tree. Can't say I liked it. Had far more guns pointed at me in the field, most folks don't have what it takes to use the firearm even after they've pointed it at you and threatened you with it.

But at home it's a .45 Long Colt with 225-grain bullets having a muzzle velocity of 960 feet-per-second with 460 foot-pounds of energy. And carrying a very antipersonnel bullet. One round more than sufficient at 10'. Kicks like a mule but second shot recovery doesn't worry me for obvious reason.

Never fired a 45LC. Love the 45ACP though. It doesn't kick all that much in the right frame, and works much farther out than 10'. One round, entire magazine, the perforating shouldn't stop until the perpetrator does.

[AdamB]

But to be realistic few have the training or the nerves to use just one or two shots as needed. And as to gun size almost any pistol will do inside the confines of a building. Even a 25 automatic. It is not the size of the gun but the ability of the shooter as a perp missed with a 500 Ruger is just as missed as one with a 22 long rifle.

I was sold a sub-compact 45ACP by the ex-police officer at Cabelas, some years back now. I asked him what he carried when not selling guns to customers, and he said it was an SR22 Ruger. I asked, "22?" in that surprised customer voice, and he said "Yup, they don't recoil, and you can empty the entire mgazine real quick like into something the size of quarter at short ranges". Never forgot that comment, but haven't converted to a 22LR for self defense quite yet. 9mm sub-compacts work for me in terms of capacity for size, rate of accurate fire within a given range, stopping and damaging power beyond 40gr little 22 sized bullets, etc etc. Throw in a decent trigger and it works for me.

[Newfie]

I have heard a somewhat convincing argument for a 22WMR.
100 yard energy is about the same as a 22LR muzzle energy.
The difference on squirrel head shots is noticeable and significant.
Sounds like a better compromise.
I know they are available as revolvers but never looked at pistols.

[vtsnowedin]

I have heard a somewhat convincing argument for a 22WMR.
100 yard energy is about the same as a 22LR muzzle energy.
The difference on squirrel head shots is noticeable and significant.
Sounds like a better compromise.
I know they are available as revolvers but never looked at pistols.

22WMR revolvers are pretty common with the Ruger single six convertible being the most common as it comes with two cylinders. I did not know of any 22WMR semi auto pistols but a check at Gunbroker.com shows a dozen or more options with Walther and Kel-tec being the prominent brands. The other manufacturers seem to skip from 22LR to the 9mm or 32s. If you want one they will be glad to sell you one.

[Newfie]

Intriguing but not needed. I prefer to live places where it is not needed.

I really feel sorry for Philadelphia. Was never good, seemed to be struggling forward. But the last decade or so has been backwards and gaining speed. Thrilled to be out.

[AdamB]

I have heard a somewhat convincing argument for a 22WMR.
100 yard energy is about the same as a 22LR muzzle energy.
The difference on squirrel head shots is noticeable and significant.
Sounds like a better compromise.
I know they are available as revolvers but never looked at pistols.

22 WMR is available in semi-auto pistols. I have my eye on a nice Walther locally, but it is nearly as expensive as its centerfire stablemates. Having a tough time justifying it though. Muzzle energy at 100 yards regardless of rimfire strength not being the issue near as much as the size and energy of individual perforations, should it not be a instantly "lights out" situation that Rockman seems to be looking for.

[Tanada]

How many times have we seen a supposedly trained policeman empty a full clip into some perp that was already down after the first shot? Something about the adrenaline in a real shooting situation keeps the trigger finger twitching long after the need has ended.
But to be realistic few have the training or the nerves to use just one or two shots as needed. And as to gun size almost any pistol will do inside the confines of a building. Even a 25 automatic. It is not the size of the gun but the ability of the shooter as a perp missed with a 500 Ruger is just as missed as one with a 22 long rifle.

I will just point out that John Hinckley used a .22 to wound three people including President Reagan rapid firing his revolver even as the USSS tackled him to the ground. Note that none of the USSS nor any of the police officers present discharged their weapons.

[vtsnowedin]

How many times have we seen a supposedly trained policeman empty a full clip into some perp that was already down after the first shot? Something about the adrenaline in a real shooting situation keeps the trigger finger twitching long after the need has ended.
But to be realistic few have the training or the nerves to use just one or two shots as needed. And as to gun size almost any pistol will do inside the confines of a building. Even a 25 automatic. It is not the size of the gun but the ability of the shooter as a perp missed with a 500 Ruger is just as missed as one with a 22 long rifle.

I will just point out that John Hinckley used a .22 to wound three people including President Reagan rapid firing his revolver even as the USSS tackled him to the ground. Note that none of the USSS nor any of the police officers present discharged their weapons.

Yes but if Hinckley had used something bigger like a 9mm both Reagan and Brady would probably both been dead on the scene.

[AdamB]

I will just point out that John Hinckley used a .22 to wound three people including President Reagan rapid firing his revolver even as the USSS tackled him to the ground. Note that none of the USSS nor any of the police officers present discharged their weapons.

And of the 4 people wounded, all lived. The cop who sold me my 45ACP subcompact mentioned that more people are killed by 22LR than any other caliber in the US. Certainly could be true, I've never checked. But I don't use a 22LR because my intention isn't for each hit to be potentially wounding, which might be the most reasonable outcome for that caliber for the average shooter in a self defense scenario. I like the 9mm for light recoil, high capacity, and modern defensive ammunition designed to do more than create small wound channels. I like the 45ACP because it was designed to do one thing, to one particular thin skinned mammal, and do it well.

"45 ACP: Because a 9mm MIGHT expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink"

[Newfie]

I do have 2 pistols, just because.
1911 each.

Edit to add quote,

"45 ACP: Because a 9mm MIGHT expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink.

Maybe that is the answer to clip limits, bigger bullets.

[AdamB]

Yes but if Hinckley had used something bigger like a 9mm both Reagan and Brady would probably both been dead on the scene.

Ronny was a ricochet hit. Quite possible a centerfire wouldn't have necessarily done that, with the energy available to punch through stuff rather than glance off. I've heard that this characteristic might also be what makes a 22LR more lethal than some might normally expect from its kinetic energy and small caliber, more likely to reflect off bones and hard parts and redirect itself through available soft tissue.

[theluckycountry]

Thank Hod I have no real experience with in’s and out’s of shooting people. N my mind if you have to shoot someone you are having an extremely bad day.

You can start off small, go out and shoot some rabbits, then work your way up to Bobcats say. I think the important thing is to kill things at close quarters, to get the feel for it like they did back in the Wild West where they had to shoot game often. It's a mindset and most people today have the suburban mindset but they are increasingly living in the new Wild West.

Murdering small animals breaks down your aversion to killing and will give you a more level head if you have to face off to a human. Also the resolve to kill can be seen in your actions and body language I believe. Just look at all the people who get mugged, the criminal points a gun at them but rarely has to discharge it because the victims know that they will if pushed. With that sort of resolve you might not even need to shoot. Why so many people get shot by police though is a mystery to me. There they are arguing away in front of someone who will 100% kill them and are warning them. I love those videos, dark humor.

[Newfie]

I can see the argument has some value. Yet, for me, it is because I am a hunter and have killed that I am adverse. I know what it looks like, I don’t want to do it to a human, nor do I want it done to me. Push come to shove I know how to do it, and will. I just don’t want to be in that place.

There is some irony in this discussion. I believe many Westerners mentally block where their meat comes from. They buy deboned, skinned chicken breast for a reason, and your “aversion” touches on that. For me there is a difference between eating a steak and a piece of venison I looked in the eye before I pulled the trigger. Then again, beef, chicken, ham or fish; I am always aware of the source of my protein, and try ti be a little bit respectful of their demise.

[AdamB]

I do have 2 pistols, just because.
1911 each.

Edit to add quote,

"45 ACP: Because a 9mm MIGHT expand, but a 45 will NEVER shrink.

Maybe that is the answer to clip limits, bigger bullets.

Require everyone to use a REAL caliber?

I have 5 1911's, and a 6th in 9mm which doesn't count because, you know, it isn't the caliber handed down from God to John Browning. My 1911's will all drill holes in something the size of a shirt pocket at 7 yards, firing at speed, with every round in the magazine, and is the only caliber besides 22LR that I've used in competition.

Unfortunately, the 1911's in 45 are all 7-8 rounders, steel frames and heavy, and my smaller carry 9mm's range from 8 rounds to 15 and polymer. The 8 rounders are terrifically concealable, the 15 rounder only slightly less so, plus it has a 4" barrel compared to the more typical 3-3-1/2 in the smallest. In either case, I trend towards high concealability than large caliber power when carrying. The goal is just to be one more old Santa Claus looking senior citizen in a crowd when something goes sideways.

[Newfie]

My goal is to not he there when it goes sideways.

I harbor no fantasy of being a hero.

[AdamB]

My goal is to not he there when it goes sideways.
I harbor no fantasy of being a hero.

Wanting to get out before it goes sideways is quite a good plan. But it isn't being a hero, making sure that just like you know how to hunt and fish, you know how to stop 2 legged vermin as well, should the need arise?

In either case, my guess is before peak oil happens or whatever the hysterical claims of collapse and MZBs and whatnot happens, most all of us will "not be here". It isn't as though there are many spring chickens around here anymore.

[theluckycountry]

I can see the argument has some value. Yet, for me, it is because I am a hunter and have killed that I am adverse.

So you know the drill Newfie, good. I shot a lot of game, if you could call it that, when younger, but in the past decade have resorted to invasive animals that come into my yard. Possums, are one, a lovely little creature with big brown eyes, just the sort of thing the animal worshipers swoon over. I have taken a few with a pick handle and one with a Katana I bought a ways back. It wasn't pretty, especially the pick handle jobs, but I knew it would be good for my my mental strength so I did it.

That's what it comes down to I believe, strengthening the mind, or keeping it strong, just like doing physical exercise to keep the body strong. In today's world there is a plethora of garbage that passes for correct social behavior. Basically we are a decadent white culture that grows weaker by the decade, with tribal black and middle-eastern cultures intermixed in it. The tribals behave as we did 200 years ago and it should be clear by now that no policing efforts can turn the tide on that sort of anarchy. One only has to look at any African nation today, they are killing fields.

Like you I don't ever want to have to kill anyone in self defense but if it comes down to it I don't want to be hesitating like some old fool who feeds the birds in his back yard every day. In the city north of me there have been some high profile murders of late, youths, 17 and under pulling knives, murdering people in their doorways, on the street outside their home. It's just petty thefts that got out of hand because the kid with the knife was a nutter but it shows how easily things can get deadly. A kid with a knife is dangerous, but a man armed with a pick handle or Katana is a match if he knows how to wield it and is prepared to stand his ground.

Australian crime is on the increase but it's nothing like in the US.

Two teenagers have been charged with murder after 41-year-old Emma Lovell died after being stabbed in the chest at her home in North Lakes on Boxing Day.
Police said a scuffle broke out on to the front porch, where Lovell, a mother of two, suffered a stab wound to her chest. Lovell’s husband, Lee, 43, suffered a non-life-threatening wound to his back.

For lack of a shoe a horse was lost, for lack of pick handle a wife was lost.