[Tanada]

Yanks get those nukes out of Turkey NOW

The country is rapidly becoming a tinderbox ready to ignite.

Send the nukes to the UK, we'll look after them, why they even might fit on our four new nuclear powered / nuclear armed submarines we FINALLY decided to build on Monday !!!!!

To store these nukes on a now "iffy" airbase right next to the Syrian border is sheer lunacy.

Gas

I agree it is foolish to keep them forward deployed in Turkey. Far better to bring them home. The UK already has plenty, not only from the USA stockpiled there, but also of their own manufactured designs.

[SeaGypsy]

Re Turkey/ Russia, while I side with Tanada, we need to remember Putin is about a very straightforward business model re Islam. Stick within accepted Parameters & practice as you will, go snackbar, we blow your arse to kingdom come. Maybe Putin will tolerate a Trotskyist style purge of Gulenists? Pretty freaky stuff going on these days.

[dissident]

Re Turkey/ Russia, while I side with Tanada, we need to remember Putin is about a very straightforward business model re Islam. Stick within accepted Parameters & practice as you will, go snackbar, we blow your arse to kingdom come. Maybe Putin will tolerate a Trotskyist style purge of Gulenists? Pretty freaky stuff going on these days.

Putin has to deal with this steaming pile of shit on his doorstep whether he wants to or not. This includes dealing with Erdo-turd who is going to be around for a while still. Throwing Erdo-turd a few candies has practical benefits. Any yapping about "principles" from NATO would be the epitome of hypocrisy considering how Uncle Scam succors the Wahhabi nest called Saudi Arabia.

[evilgenius]

The big question then becomes whether this was just a dress rehearsal for what will happen in the US if Trump gets elected? The US has never had a public coup. I'm not advocating one either. I am saying that, should it come to that, the coup plotters had best not give up too soon. I suspect in the wake of all of the talk about bringing back the death penalty that the coup plotters in Turkey wish they hadn't. It looks to have been a fairly large scale attempt, though probably nothing like what Erdogan is calling it. The aftermath is looking cruel for secularism at large in the country. They wouldn't have given up because they doubted themselves. They, no doubt, still believe there were right. It had to be because they figured the violence they needed to perpetrate to win would be too much, hence the power of Erdogan's appeal to the people to hit the streets. If they didn't think they could pull it off they most likely would not have launched it. You gotta wonder if that is the right way to view such things? It's a tough call. Coups are not good business. They are not the best way to achieve power. They are not a long lasting solution going forward either economically or socially. Even the Burmese military has had to admit that.

It's a real sphincter tightener to think about Trump actually being so bad for America that any forces there would launch a coup should he get elected and turn out to be himself. You know, he has said some truly bombastic things and most people have turned a deaf ear to it because at least he isn't Hillary. If he did get elected, however, why wouldn't the people expect him to be who he says he is? He isn't just a nose holder because people disagree with him about certain things. He's a nose holder because he crosses taboo lines that civilization has learned not to cross, and he flaunts it. He is counting on the Hillary hate to get him over the hump, not upon his vision being dissected by the voters. Just imagine what the US would be like post-failed coup with that lunatic free to purge everyone that even remotely irritates him. Would the jails fill or would the companies that sell lye suddenly find themselves in gravy? Can you trust your average Trump supporter, given that it is ultimately the people who do anything, not to turn into something that even their best friends wouldn't recognize if the worst came to the worst?

[Newfie]

Evil,

Like it or not I think Trump says what he does because it resonates with many Americans. He is a looking glass of Americana Today. Turn it over and in the other face you see Hillary.

They are where they are because they represent what the country is, statistically.

[SeaGypsy]

Among my US military buddies, Trump is way preferable to Hillary.

[Sixstrings]

About Trump.. one thing to be comforted by, is just that Governor Pence is the veep nominee.

That's an establishment, NORMAL Republican. If Trump ever went too far, I think one could count on Pence to be on the right side of things.

Also, someone like Chris Christie.. a former federal prosecutor. And lifelong friend, of Trump.

And, Trump's own FAMILY -- his children are actually his better angels. And his wife. They all keep him in line.

Trump actually picked the veep candidate, that his children were supporting. They wanted Pence. The Trump kids flew to the governor's mansion. And that's who Trump chose. (an irony about Trump is that actually, we all need to wonder to what degree his wife and kids would be running the country. But hey, as I said, he's got good family so I'm not complaining if they keep their dad in check.)

And, another thing -- the half of the Republican Party that's actually the "Jeb Bush" type of Republican Party. McConnell, McCain, Graham.. none of these guys are ever gonna go along with some kind of dictator thing. "National Review" Bill Buckley type traditional Republicans, aren't ever going to change their core views, and values. So, combine with that half of the R party, along with the Democrats.. then Trump could be stood up to in Congress.

And you can darn betcha the Supreme Court -- and John Roberts too -- ain't ever gonna get swept up in any Trump Supporter Dear Leader blind follower nonsense.

Another thing to be comforted by -- that whole fascisty "Trump movement" / Dear Leader vibe about Trump, has toned down. Trump really has gone establishment to an extent, and normalized, in a lot of ways.

He's tied with Hillary now -- yet, he doesn't fill up stadiums anymore, either. I think that's a good thing. It really wasn't healthy, TOO much massive crowd stuff goin' on.

Comparing Erdogan, to Trump.. I'd say that Trump gives in a lot more. Trump has some better angels around him, and he listens to them.

Could he change though, and become more like a dictator? Should voters take that chance?

One thing about it, thank goodness we have ironclad constitutional term limits in this country. And, that Trump is actually too old to somehow just keep being president for life. All he can do is 8 years max, anyway.

And, thank goodness we have such strong democratic institutions in this country, and checks and balances and a good system, and we actually are not Russia nor Turkey nor a latin american banana republic.

All things considered, about all this..

I'm leaning Clinton. Cripes, we don't need a Mussolini, an establishment Republican foreign policy Iron Lady would be cool too.. and then, just raise the darn minimum wage.. do some things for working and middle class, like free community college.. call it a day and move on.

[Sixstrings]

How Erdogan Made Turkey Authoritarian Again
It wasn't so long ago that the Turkish leader was seen as a model democrat in the Islamic world. What happened?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/07/how-erdogan-made-turkey-authoritarian-again/492374/

Oh good grief, I just wrote that "well he's not so bad, Pence will keep him in line, he's got a good family" post, then I just saw this.. I guess Trump likes Erdogan (sigh ):

Trump says U.S. shouldn’t criticize Turkey’s Erdogan over post-coup purge

A lot of people are parsing Donald Trump's very interesting interview with New York Times journalists David Sanger and Maggie Haberman that was published Wednesday night. The Republican presidential nominee, as my colleague Philip Bump notes, called into question whether his administration would fulfill North Atlantic Treaty Organization obligations.

After reading the Times interview, the Atlantic magazine's Jeffrey Goldberg declared that "Hillary Clinton is running against Vladimir Putin" — an indication of the extent to which Goldberg and other foreign-policy watchers think Trump's views play into the hands of the Kremlin.

"I don’t think so," Trump said, responding to a question from the journalists about whether the attempted coup against Erdogan could have been staged, "but I do give great credit to him for turning it around."

He went on, extolling the public response to reports of the failed coup that brought out protesters to the streets:

"You know, the first hour, it seemed like it was over. Then all of a sudden, and the amazing thing is the one that won that was the people. They came out on the streets, and the army types didn’t want to drive over them like they did in Tiananmen Square when they sort of drived them over, and that was the end of that. Right? People said, I’m not going to drive over people. The people came out of their homes, and they were not in favor of what the military was doing. So that was quite impressive from the standpoint of existing government."

When asked about the implications of the ongoing purge, he echoed the arguments of those from a very different side of the political spectrum than that of Trump's conservative base: What right do we in the United States have to criticize the condition of human rights elsewhere? Here's Trump:

"I think right now when it comes to civil liberties, our country has a lot of problems, and I think it’s very hard for us to get involved in other countries when we don’t know what we are doing and we can’t see straight in our own country. We have tremendous problems when you have policemen being shot in the streets, when you have riots, when you have Ferguson. When you have Baltimore. When you have all of the things that are happening in this country — we have other problems, and I think we have to focus on those problems. When the world looks at how bad the United States is, and then we go and talk about civil liberties, I don’t think we’re a very good messenger."

This is in part a political dig at the prevailing American status quo Trump seeks to upend, but it flies in the face of the consensus view in Washington on the importance of speaking up on matters of civil liberties and human rights in more benighted parts of the planet. U.S. officials have all condemned the coup attempt but also remain wary about the current state of play in Turkey.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/21/donald-trump-says-u-s-shouldnt-criticize-turkeys-erdogan-over-post-coup-purge/

Ok, so I guess Trump likes it when he sees the "people" coming out into the streets, to support an authoritarian dictator.

That's a bit concerning.

And, what Trump isn't recognizing about Turkey, is that a lot of those people out in the streets were fundamentalist muslims that like it that their president is making the country more fundy muslim (while suppressing secularists, and opposition groups).

And then, also, a lot of the Erdogan supporters are a bit like how the Trump supporter thing is. In Turkey, Erdgoan's people just support him no matter what. Erdogan can say no wrong, he can do no wrong.. he's the populist strongman authoritarian dictator.

I would agree that yes it's a good thing the army didn't turn on the people.. but what Trump doesn't recognize at all, or appear to care about, are democratic principles in Turkey. Trump doesn't seem to think it's wrong, that a president becomes a dictator. He has no criticism of the purge, at all, but rather -- he turns it around to a "who is the USA to talk, with all our problems" type argument, that's the same kind of line one hears out of kremlin and Beijing propaganda.

This New York Times interview is making a lot of waves; in the same interview, Trump was also soft about NATO, and suggested the US may not come to the defense of some NATO states. If they hadn't met their obligations, to spend 2% of GDP on their military.

But it's really unclear, what is Trump's position? Is it like.. he's actually got kremlin views, and he's against NATO, and really would just want out of it? And so, "you haven't met your 2% spending requirement" would really be a canard, maybe if the Baltics WERE meeting that then Trump would just find another reason to look the other way, if Putin moved on the Baltics?

Oh, my goodness. Liking Putin was one thing. Liking Erdogan is just a bridge too far.

I think..

[Newfie]

Just thinking about this coup and the aftermath I'm not at all convi need that this was not something he managed to cook up himself. Find some young lions and have a few agents stoke them into rash actions.

Think about it. He doesn't know about the coup, but he's got a handy list of 58,000 state enemies. If you have that big an internal spy ring then you should know about the coup. If you don't know about the coup then it takes a while to learn.

But if you have a list and need an excuse then a coup is a good tool.

The problem is now what do we do with the SOB?

[Newfie]

Come to think of it...I hope they ask Trump and Hillary to each tell us what their recommended response is.

[AgentR11]

The problem is now what do we do with the SOB?

I still don't know what I think about the coup attempt; who did what, to whom and when...

I do know this, Erdogen will be ruling Turkey for a while, with, or without our consent. There is no "do with" on the table.

[Cid_Yama]

I think MBS mentioned this earlier. It's the Reichstag fire all over again.

On February 27, 1933, the German parliament (Reichstag) building burned down due to arson. The government falsely portrayed the fire as part of a Communist effort to overthrow the state.

Using emergency constitutional powers, Adolf Hitler’s cabinet had issued a Decree for the Protection of the German People on February 4, 1933. This decree placed constraints on the press and authorized the police to ban political meetings and marches, effectively hindering electoral campaigning. A temporary measure, it was followed by a more dramatic and permanent suspension of civil rights following the February 27 burning of the parliament building.

Though the origins of the fire are still unclear, in a propaganda maneuver, the coalition government (Nazis and the German Nationalist People's Party) blamed the Communists. They exploited the Reichstag fire to secure President von Hindenburg’s approval for an emergency decree, the Decree for the Protection of the People and the State of February 28. Popularly known as the Reichstag Fire Decree, the regulations suspended the right to assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and other constitutional protections, including all restraints on police investigations.

Justified on the false premise that the Communists were planning an uprising to overthrow the state, the Reichstag Fire Decree permitted the regime to arrest and incarcerate political opponents without specific charge, dissolve political organizations, and to suppress publications. It also gave the central government the authority to overrule state and local laws and overthrow state and local governments.

link

The Enabling Act (German: Ermächtigungsgesetz) was a 1933 Weimar Constitution amendment that gave the German Cabinet – in effect, Chancellor Adolf Hitler – the power to enact laws without the involvement of the Reichstag. It passed in both the Reichstag and Reichsrat on 24 March 1933, and was signed by President Paul von Hindenburg later that day. The act stated that it was to last four years unless renewed by the Reichstag, which occurred twice. The Enabling Act gave Hitler plenary powers. It followed on the heels of the Reichstag Fire Decree, which abolished most civil liberties and transferred state powers to the Reich government. The combined effect of the two laws was to transform Hitler's government into a de facto legal dictatorship.

link


It's how Hitler went from Chancellor to Fuhrer.

Erdogan has repeatedly praised Hitler and stated he showed the way. Well, yes, I guess he did.

Earlier someone said they had rounded up 58,000? The only way you could detain so many would be quickly erected barbed-wire camps with barracks and guard towers. Sound familiar?

Long before the Jews went there, Hitler's political opponents did. Communists, Social Democrats, and Trade Unionists. Also University professors and other 'intellectuals'.

[M_B_S]

@ cid

Next step => "Feldherrenhalle"

Erdogan declares 15 th July "Märtyrer" day


NS monument to remember the "Heros"of the "Hitler Putsch" 9 th November 1923
*********************
This link because of PEAK OIL

http://www.naturalgaseurope.com/weekly- ... rkey-30714

Last step => Führer Erdogan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro24XNeYWng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB9aNLtfuFs

[Sixstrings]

Turkey and Erdogan: Here comes the (real) caliphate

The ragtag ISIS caliphate is merely the forerunner of the more ambitious caliphate to come.

It’s coming in Turkey.

Convinced that history has no relevance, those same self-deluded Western leaders and diplomats refuse to recognize President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s vision for “his” Turkey. He dreams not only of neo-Ottoman glory, but of a caliphate reborn and led by a Turk. (Might anyone venture a guess as to his candidate?) Essentially, the sultan and caliph both would be back on a Turkish throne.

Today, Istanbul. Tomorrow, the world.

If you decline to acknowledge what a man wants, you’ll find it hard to understand what he does. The immense and destructive crackdown underway in Turkey now, with at least 10,000 Turks taken into custody and as many as 100,000 others dismissed from their positions — not only soldiers, but judges, civil servants, police and academics — isn’t an end-game. It’s a beginning. ...

And, as in Nazi Germany, those confident citizens who deluded themselves that the new leader could be managed find themselves in prison cells or desperate for visa stamps in their passports (if their documents haven’t already been confiscated).

The double-speak language, the naked propaganda, is present, too — as in Erdogan’s claim that his purge of the opposition will strengthen Turkish democracy. His version of democracy is less convincing than Putin’s.

From Reichskanzler to Fuehrer, or from president to sultan-and-caliph, to Erdogan the step appears inevitable. It’s only a matter of timing.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/07/21/turkey-and-erdogan-here-comes-real-caliphate.html

[SeaGypsy]

Even a stopped clock is exactly correct twice a day.

[onlooker]

"Erdogan has repeatedly praised Hitler and stated he showed the way. Well, yes, I guess he did." Given this the Coup may or may not have been staged but the consequences are predictable, he will just use this to further empower himself and his cronies.

[mojoman]

Here's my take on this.

Rule number one when one makes a coup is to make it at 4 AM when everybody is asleep. The head of the executive should be bundled away in their pajamas, together with other key persons. This started at 9 PM, at a time when Turkish society is up and running and it seems the coup makers didn't even know where Erdogan was. Either this was a false flag (which of course the involved file and ranked would not be aware of), or it is one of the most incompetently coups ever (highly unlikely given the history of Turkish armed forces) or they actually planned a coup but their hand was forced at a time not of their choosing.

Whichever of these alternatives is correct (or if there is another that I can't think of) what happened on Friday was irrelevant. The real coup in Turkey has been going on since Saturday. About 60 000 people have now been stripped of their various office and professions and these lists must have been prepared for months.

Media is reporting about the state of emergency. A state of emergency normally includes that some aspects of legal procedure is suspended, that the right to congregate in groups is restricted, and that the freedom to move during certain periods is limited. Also, executive power is increased. Erdogan just gave himself the power to legislate at will. That is not a state of emergency. That is a dictatorship.

The coup that may well establish Turkey as a Islamic state, possibly exclude it from NATO, alienate it from the EU and move it much closer to the other Muslim countries is well under way. The events on Friday night was insignificant.

Bring out the popcorns. This is gonna be a good one, and it's just getting started.

[dissident]

I hear some claims that Putin tipped off Erdo-turd about the coup. I think this is BS since a Daesh version of Turkey which is what Erdo-turd wants is a major problem for Russia. Quasi-secular Turkey was bad enough with its support for jihadis in the North Caucuses and Central Asian ex-USSR republics. But a frothing at the mouth version of it would be much worse. Daesh Turkey would likely invade Syria to support its Daesh allies and would block the Bosphorus without a second thought. At least up to now there was some restraint imposed by NATO and EU aspirations.

A Daesh version of Turkey is bad news for the EU as well.

[onlooker]

Erdogan seems like your typical power / wealth hungry politician.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan

[BahamasEd]

I think that Erdogan just threw the CIA out of Turkey, they won't like that so expect something bad to come Turkey's way.

At least they will try. The game is on