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THE Clothing & Temperature Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Saving energy through low tech: going naked.

Unread postby Jenab » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 10:24:58

Just a bit of comic relief for so serious a forum as this one.
A lot of energy gets used up in people's air conditioners. As an alternative, they could just run around naked, letting evaporating sweat do its job.
Of course, there is potentially some awkwardness in this for some people...
If you run in the nude, then people will stare, and say that you must love the warm summer air, but if you color your hair, don't run in the nude 'cause people would notice your crotch, and that's rude. :shock:
If you run in the buff and dye your hair, be sure to use Lady Clairol down there, 'cause if someone's watching, they'll surely be rude if your colors don't match when you run in the nude. 8O
(Feel free to add verses folks.)
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Re: Saving energy through low tech: going naked.

Unread postby Caoimhan » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 12:03:29

I don't think it's so funny. As a nudist/naturist, member of AANR, TNS, and INS, I am very much in favor of clothing-optional recreation and simply as a way of life. I rarely, if ever, wear clothing around the house.
I don't have air-conditioning (though I do have window and standing fans).
Not only is there a savings in energy from not having to cool my home as much, but I don't have to wash clothing as often, either. When I DO wash my clothes, I have a water-saving front-loader washer and a natural gas dryer (which is more efficient than electrical).
I wish I had an on-demand water heater, but I rent my house, so that's not possible. Still, by living naked as much as possible, I cut down drastically on my energy use.
Oh yeah, one more way my nakedness keeps my energy use low... my blinds are always shut, keeping my house cooler. :-)
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THE Clothing & Temperature Thread (merged)

Unread postby anotherhuman » Sat 28 Jan 2006, 16:00:56

According to "The Party's Over", USA EIA says that residences consume 21% of national energy. So I was wondering why we heat and cool people indirectly (by heating and cooling houses) instead of heating and cooling people directly (for example, through heated clothing)?

Now, I don't know of any such clothing (with a few exceptions, listed below). The reason we don't do this might be that there's no technology to do this, or that such clothing is uncomfortable or too bulky. But the reason might be that potential customers are happy with the status quo and don't want the stress of changing their habits. Or it could be that flaunting wealth is necessary to have status, and that living in an unheated house would be considered "poor". BTW, not all societies demand heated houses: http://motherearthnews.com/library/1976 ... _Stay_Warm

To find out what's possible, I looked up the thermal conductivity (W/m°K) of various clothing-related materials:
aerogel .017 (but very expensive, see below)
air .024
wool .03-.04
cotton .04 (but cotton absorbs water, so .11 may be more realistic)
silk .04
felt .04
polyester .05 (but it feels "clammy" when wet unless a three-dimensional raised weave is used)
polypropylene .11 (but many web pages say PP is "best" for outdoors use because of it's water-repellance and comfort)
rubber .14
snow .16 (depends on compaction)
acrylic .2
nylon .25
fresh water .561-.679
concrete .9-2
iron 80.2
copper 401
silver 429
link 1 and link 2 and link 3 and link 4

From the information I gathered, it appears that:
1) Right now, polypropylene is the best choice for low cost and lowest heat loss (especially when wet, and in extreme cold, like Antarctica). Wool and silk are also very good. Wearing long underwear made of any of these three materials allows you to comfortably reduce your home thermostat by about 10°F (5°C). But "cotton kills" if it gets wet (for example, from your own sweat) in cold weather. link(excellent) and link (Antarctica clothing) and pdf (compares synthetic clothing fabrics)

2) Aerogel will probably become popular when it becomes cheaper. Apparently it traps air (like wearing clothing made of plastic bubble wrap?). I don't know if it allows sweat out. "Toasty Feet" aerogel insole liners and link

3) Insulating clothing keeps you warm by trapping a layer of air against your skin, meaning that the base layer must have a tight fit. But the tight fit is uncomfortable because it reduces your freedom of movement, especially in your arms. So maybe a more practical approach is heated clothing. jacket heated by AA batteries and carbon fiber heating wire

4) Respiration causes evaporative cooling inside the lungs. The lower the humidity, the greater the evaporative cooling. "Heat exchange face masks" use copper (which has extremely high heat conductivity) to transfer around 80% of the heat and moisture from each outgoing breath to the next incoming breath. link and link

5) I didn't find any self-cooling clothing, but it does seem like there are a few possibilities:
* Metals have very high thermal conductivities (copper's is about 17,000 times greater than air's), so it would seem that bare skin touching any large metal object (wearing shorts and sitting on a metal folding chair?) would cool you down extremely quickly (if the metal temperature is lower than your body temperature).
* Loose cotton clothing is apparently much cooler than polypropylene because cotton does not move the sweat away from your skin until the sweat evaporates, which results in evaporative cooling. (Evaporation from liquid water to water vapor takes about 5 times the heat that heating water from just above freezing to just below boiling takes. If the sweat is touching your skin until it evaporates, then that much heat will be removed from your skin.)
link
Last edited by anotherhuman on Mon 30 Jan 2006, 10:24:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Sat 28 Jan 2006, 17:53:03

anotherhuman wrote:Now, I don't know of any such clothing (with a few exceptions, listed below). The reason we don't do this might be that there's no technology to do this, or that such clothing is uncomfortable or too bulky. But the reason might be that potential customers are happy with the status quo and don't want the stress of changing their habits. Or it could be that flaunting wealth is necessary to have status, and that living in an unheated house would be considered "poor". BTW, not all societies demand heated houses:
http://motherearthnews.com/library/1976 ... _Stay_Warm

Good thermal underware is great to keep warm. I have some thermolactyl chlorofibre longjohns and long-sleeved top and only rarely use them when it's really cold outside (like -20 C to -30 C) and I have to stay out for a long time. Too hot when you get indoors.
People who need to save on heating bills, could keep seriously warm with this stuff. Comfortable too. You only need to eat well and the body creates the heat!
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 28 Jan 2006, 18:08:05

A combination of silk and wool (for the naturalists) and/or synthetic thermal fabrics work perfectly fine to keep you warm, no need for anything more hightech (ludicrously so) than that.

:roll: Put on a hat, for pete's snake.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby strider3700 » Sat 28 Jan 2006, 20:54:07

with the right clothing it's easy enough to keep warm but thats not good enough to turn off the heat completely in some areas.

Up here not heating a building is a quick way to invite mold to form on the walls due to the amount of moisture we have at all times.

If it gets really cold you have to keep internal temp above 4 degrees to keep the plumbing from freezing.

Warm clothing and turning the t-stat down to 10 would be a massive savings but I don't think colder then that is worth it around here.
shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby green_achers » Sat 28 Jan 2006, 23:40:49

If you read 18th and 19th century literature, you often see reference to people wearing a "house coat." When one came inside, one took off their outdoor coat and put on the house coat. I suppose it was a more comfortable coat for inside use.

Now it's synonymous with bath robe, but I have been known to hang around in one of those, as well.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 29 Jan 2006, 01:06:11

well I am pretty sure that most of the folks on this site are pre-30s so from someone who grew up in the fifties...put on a gol'darn sweater. That is the way we always dealt with temperature fluctuations in our homes back in the fifties and sixties...if all the doors and windows were closed ....sorry we arent't going to turn up the heat ...put on a sweater if you are cold.
I am astounded that you are actually trying to calibrate what clothing is important....for crying out loud ..just put on what is available. Sheesh. High tech clothing....we never had it ....you don't need it. In actual fact if you quit wanting to have all of this new fangled clothing I suspect our oil consumption would go down.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby Princess » Sun 29 Jan 2006, 01:54:16

Let me state up front I realize I live in California and cold in California is nothing compared to most of the rest of country.

This winter, I made the choice to turn the thermostat down to 64ºF (to lower our gas bill). I also have a mother with physical limitation that keeps her sitting most of the day. I made her a simple wrap and a lap robe from polar fleece. She loves them and swears it's the only thing keeping her warm.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby oilfreeandhappy » Sun 29 Jan 2006, 11:16:53

I commute by bicycle in very cold weather (I've even ridden in less than 0 deg F (-18 deg C). I often wear the same clothing around the house - insulated poly pants, sweatshirts, wool socks, etc.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby OneLoneClone » Sun 29 Jan 2006, 12:40:41

Hey RocDoc,
No offense, but some of those techinical clothes are fantastic.Modern fleece has the highest weight to warmth ratio of any clothing. Most modern synthetic backpacking clothing is made from recycled soda bottles, I dont think polyester is causing the energy crisis.
But factor in durability and sustainability and you will find that good old fashion WOOL (Merrino if possible) is the best thing around. Plus it wont smell like a locker room within a year like synthetics.

Stuff like that matters for nomads. Doesn't matter if you are house-bound. Then you can wear whatever heavy warm crap you have around.
Check out SmartWool and Possumdown (google them)...those companies are making the lightest, warmest natural fiber clothing, for nomads or backpackers ;)
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby grabby » Mon 30 Jan 2006, 03:44:50

Ludi wrote:A combination of silk and wool (for the naturalists) and/or synthetic thermal fabrics work perfectly fine to keep you warm, no need for anything more hightech (ludicrously so) than that.
:roll: Put on a hat, for pete's snake.

Wear only light colored Cotton fabric, it breaths and you stay healthy, and within ten miles of a megaton bomb, it wont melt to your skin

Cotton is the cloth of choice, it boils well and you wont have any soap.
Wool gets ruined with boiling and so does silk.
Cotton wears best.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby nocar » Mon 30 Jan 2006, 09:27:40

"Can smart clothing subsitute for heated houses?"

If we look at the traditional Inuit life style, obviously it can. If you live in an igloo, snow house, obviously you can not heat it very much. Just a little above freezing. They had very smart clothing with layers of skin and also lined the main part of the igloo with skins to sit on. No other furniture. Their heat/light/cooking source was a lamp burning fats from whales or seals.
But on the other hand, if it is -30C outside and you heat to +1C, can you really say that you substitute clothing for a warm house? I guess they really did both.
I have to admit, though, that I like it much warmer indoors.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Mon 30 Jan 2006, 09:45:46

Another vote for wool.

I never knew about this stuff until I became car-free and started riding a motorcycle year-round to work. I never really needed it.

It's amazing how warm I can stay when the temperature is 30F and I spend a 1/2 hour in 70mph wind. An outer layer of synthetics or leather seal out the wind and provide abrasion resistance. Wool underneath provides the thermal insulation.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby anotherhuman » Fri 10 Feb 2006, 16:34:40

I bought a pair of polypropylene long johns from and have been wearing them for two weeks as a test. Here's what I found out so far:

* I bought them from the http://redrockthermals.com eBay listing for $30 + $8 shipping, but the label showed that they were made by http://tii.us/itmidx1.htm and are US military "Extreme Cold Weather System" long johns.

* When I first put them on, they were warm and comfortable. The only moments of discomfort were a "synthetic clothing feeling" for about 5 minutes one day and being too warm when I wore them outside on a 70F/21C afternoon. Unlike previous synthetic clothing, this did not give me an uncomfortable feeling of accumulating static.

* As a test, I left the window wide open for a couple nights, so the bedroom temperature went down to 45F/7C. I slept in the polypropylene long johns and cotton socks underneath a cotton jogging suit and a lightweight cotton comforter blanket. I felt entirely warm and comfortable, except that my nose and hands were cold (but they did not wake me up). Prior to buying these polypropylene long johns, the lowest temperature I could sleep comfortably in was about 62F/17C (or about 55F/13C in a zipped-up cotton sleeping bag).

* Before, when sitting at my computer, the temperature could only drop to 62F/17C before I started shivering. In PPLJ and cotton jeans and flannel shirt and cotton socks, I did not shiver at all, even at 45F/7C.

* Before, 68F/20C was okay, but I never felt really comfortably warm unless the temperature was 74F/23C. But in PPLJ, 55F/13C feels comfortably warm, and I don't really feel drafts at all.

* The polypropylene does "pill" a lot, so I think these long johns will only last 2-3 years. My guess is that an inner layer of silk long johns and outer layer of wool long johns would be just as comfortable and more durable.

* My measurements are in the overlap area between medium and large, so I bought large, with the idea that I'd rather be comfortable than have the most effective insulating clothing. However, I think I'll get a size smaller next time, since I've read that thermal underwear should be tight against the skin (because loose clothing acts like a bellows, forcing warm air out and letting cold air in whenever you move).

* I washed them once using the washing machine's "delicate" cycle, cold water, and a very small amount of detergent. Instead of putting them in the dryer (which can melt them), I put them back on after the washing machine spun them dry. They felt cold for the first 20 seconds, and I felt damp for about 5 minutes, but in general, no drying seems to be needed.

Overall, I think this test shows that in an "oil is no longer cheap" scenario, we could easily and comfortably wear polypropylene long johns, and live and work in mostly unheated buildings.
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Re: Can smart clothing substitute for heated houses?

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 10 Feb 2006, 18:46:52

It's frequently below freezing at night in my cabin. I usually wear polypro longjohns, warm socks, a sweater, and a warm hat (needs to have the little chin tie do-dads or it will come off). That along with a down sleeping bag will keep me warm well into the single digits Farenheit.

Seriously though. People sleep in tents on Everest. By comparison, even an unheated house is posh.

Running a wood stove periodically does wonders to dry things out and prevent mold if that's an issue where you live.
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Why are people averse to wearing a sweater?

Unread postby HamRadioRocks » Thu 08 Feb 2007, 10:07:37

It's a standard energy conservation tip for winter, as wearing a sweater allows you to be comfortable at a lower temperature. President Carter wore a sweater in the White House, turned the thermostat down, and urged everyone else to do the same. I can't believe that people hated him for that.

All this presumes that the energy-guzzling alternative is to wear a T-shirt and shorts in the house in winter. Do people really dress like that inside in winter? If I did that, I'd have to change clothes EVERY time I enter or leave the house (even just to take out the garbage), because I'd STILL need to wear the sweater (plus the coat, hat, and gloves) outside the house. It's easier to just remove the coat, hat, gloves, and boots but continue to wear the rest of my winter attire. (Just watch - someone here will pan me as a lazy bastard because I don't want to take the effort to change clothes 10 times a day.)

Am I that strange? Am I that out of touch?

What really burns me up is that the malls are so hot in winter that it seems I'm expected to show up dressed for summer. In fact, I have to not only remove my coat but also my sweater as well, as anything more than a short-sleeved shirt is overkill. Of course, in the summer, the mall is so cold that it seems I'm expected to show up wearing a sweater and overcoat. This is a reason I don't go to the mall that often.
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Re: Why are people averse to wearing a sweater?

Unread postby WisJim » Thu 08 Feb 2007, 10:36:19

A lot of the problem is that energy was very cheap in the 1950s through early 1970s, so cost to heat/cool was no problem, and people are not yet adjusted to the fact that it is no longer cheap to maintain unreasonable temps in buildings.
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Re: Why are people averse to wearing a sweater?

Unread postby chris-h » Thu 08 Feb 2007, 10:41:59

People on TV are not wearing sweaters !!!
That is why.
Everybody must do as the people on TV :twisted:
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Re: Why are people averse to wearing a sweater?

Unread postby ClubOfRomeII » Thu 08 Feb 2007, 11:02:28

HamRadioRocks wrote:It's a standard energy conservation tip for winter, as wearing a sweater allows you to be comfortable at a lower temperature. President Carter wore a sweater in the White House, turned the thermostat down, and urged everyone else to do the same. I can't believe that people hated him for that.



We didn't hate him for wearing a sweater, we hated him because he was a whining nitwit, one of the first American Apologists In Chief.

I don't care if we wore thongs and a propeller hat, I was just glad to help ease his incompetent butt out of office by voting for Ronny.
1874, State Geologist of Pennsylvania
"Only enough US oil to keep kerosene lamps burning for 4 more years"

Boy, I bet great-great grandpa was worried!
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