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THE Carbon Footprint Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Unread postby entropyfails » Wed 20 Apr 2005, 17:43:33

johnmarkos wrote:
F is available area for food production (footprint)
S is the area required to sustain an individual human
P is the population that can be sustained

I simply multiplied both sides by S, coming up with

Code: Select all
F = P * S


Also, you seem to be asserting that the energy used to reduce S must be derived from fossil sources. I don't agree.


You made up this equation, so I feel certain you can manipulate your F's and S's all you want. Nothing you do will make this equation conform to population ecology because respected science has moved beyond these linear equations a HUNDRED years ago.

Come back with an equation that contains carrying capacity, models humans, food for humans, and the rest of the environment and maybe we can have a rational discussion. Your equation has no meaning, why don't you recognize that? (hint, increasing F causes changes in S not contained in your “model”)
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Problem..

Unread postby UIUCstudent01 » Wed 20 Apr 2005, 19:04:42

A problem that is.. puzzling is number 4:
4. Overall, whereas energy-rich societies should probably lower their total energy use, energy-poor societies could stand to raise theirs significantly. This will enable them to raise their standard of living, clean their environment, and reduce oveshoot (see points 2 and 3).


Energy-poor nations to get energy-richer. Ok. That sounds nice. Why do we not feed the hungry? This is going to be a huge problem - and most people won't be altruistic. (What about energy-poor nations with LARGE populations (china), how will they increase energy? Physical labor? War?)
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Unread postby johnmarkos » Wed 20 Apr 2005, 19:16:06

entropyfails wrote:Come back with an equation that contains carrying capacity, models humans, food for humans, and the rest of the environment and maybe we can have a rational discussion. Your equation has no meaning, why don't you recognize that? (hint, increasing F causes changes in S not contained in your “model”)

Carrying capacity is a line that I want us to get under.

Food for humans is encapsulated in S. I should add that a diet low in animal sources reduces the acreage required to sustain an individual human.

The rest of the environment should be allowed to return to its natural state as much as possible. A certain acreage is required for human habitation, agriculture, and energy production. Also, people use a certain amount of fiber (although if it is made well, we won't need to replace our furniture very often).

My model, though simple, is consistent with the idea of ecological footprint described in The WWF's Living Planet Report and The Limits to Growth: The 30 Year Update.

Can you please elaborate on the increase in F that causes changes in S?

As far as the linearity and simplicity of my model goes, I see these kinds of "back of the envelope" calculations all the time in books about energy and environmental issues. LTG+30 (pp. 130-132) describes in detail why it is sometimes necessary to gloss over important details in a model. Although I don't claim that my model is anywhere near as good as theirs, I do think it can promote some good, rational discussion. Sometimes we need to simplify reality to understand it.

I agree with you that I know next to nothing about ecology. I have a liberal arts degree.
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Re: Problem..

Unread postby johnmarkos » Wed 20 Apr 2005, 19:27:59

UIUCstudent01 wrote:Energy-poor nations to get energy-richer. Ok. That sounds nice. Why do we not feed the hungry? This is going to be a huge problem - and most people won't be altruistic. (What about energy-poor nations with LARGE populations (china), how will they increase energy? Physical labor? War?)


Through energy inputs, they're reducing the footprint of agriculture needed to support a given number of people. It makes sense to start by feeding all the hungry people so if possible, agricultural footprint in these places might have to rise initially to keep people from starving.

Also, food-rich nations should export food to those without enough agricultural land and productive sea to support themselves. They should do this as the dependent nations get their populations under control (through voluntary means -- see point 7) and lower the area needed to support each person. All nations should strive for independence w/r/t food but we are all in this together.
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Unread postby johnmarkos » Thu 21 Apr 2005, 13:18:11

Here's another point I thought of last night.

8. A heavy tax on land ownership, combined with tax breaks connected to the size of connected, undeveloped plots of land (or those that are allowed to return to their natural function) could help reduce the human footprint.
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Unread postby foslrock » Thu 21 Apr 2005, 20:06:51

The US government needs to seriously minimize the phantom carrying capacity by offering tax breaks for those that do not add more people to this countries carrying capacity. It sickens me whenever I read reports that the population of this country is set to increase to well above 300 million people in the next few decades. Penalizing couples that add more than 1 person in their lifetime is a necessity (if the child dies, they can have another one). Those that still believe the suburban lifestyle from the past few decades can still be maintained are the major problem, as we face a severe crash.
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Re: It's all about footprint

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 21 Apr 2005, 20:41:35

johnmarkos wrote:ISo how do we alleviate overshoot? Work on agricultural technologies that reduce the terrestrial area required to sustain an individual human,


Such technlogies have already been devised. Biointensive agriculture requires few petroleum inputs and allows a person's entire diet to be grown on 4000 square feet of land. By reducing the area of land needed for agriculture, an enormous amount of agricultural land could revert to a natural state. But only if the human population is kept within defined limits.
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Unread postby Ludi » Thu 21 Apr 2005, 20:45:06

johnmarkos wrote:Here's another point I thought of last night.

8. A heavy tax on land ownership, combined with tax breaks connected to the size of connected, undeveloped plots of land (or those that are allowed to return to their natural function) could help reduce the human footprint.


We're already hugely taxed on the land, will you force us off the land into the city where we are unable to support ourselves? How will that help anything? How will you devise heavy taxes on land ownership while at the same time giving tax breaks to "undeveloped" land? What would constitute "undeveloped land?" And would small landholders be penalized because they aren't rich enough to own thousands of acres. This plan sucks.

:(
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Unread postby johnmarkos » Sat 23 Apr 2005, 01:54:51

Ludi wrote:We're already hugely taxed on the land, will you force us off the land into the city where we are unable to support ourselves? How will that help anything? How will you devise heavy taxes on land ownership while at the same time giving tax breaks to "undeveloped" land? What would constitute "undeveloped land?" And would small landholders be penalized because they aren't rich enough to own thousands of acres. This plan sucks.

The point is to reduce the human footprint. I agree with you that taxes should be progressive: they should be designed so that they do not penalize small landowners unjustly. Also, perhaps some uses (e.g. sustainable agriculture) could be designated as having a minor footprint compared to others (e.g. strip mining). Because of this, they would be taxed less. It does seem to me, however, that because even sustainable use contributes to the human footprint, it should not be encouraged as much as full preservation.

My understanding is that if a farm is operated without fertilizers or pesticides for three years, it can be considered an organic farm. We could devise a similar strategy for marking a plot of land as "unused" or "undeveloped." If a plot of land was preserved, performing its natural function (or sustainably used), for some period of years, it could be classified this way.

The other day I imagined a scheme that would encourage large plots of contiguous, undeveloped (or sustainably used) land. It's probably too simple (or too complicated) for actual legislation but I was imagining that the tax deduction would be based on the size of each contiguous plot as a fraction of the owner's total holdings. The deduction would cover no more than the initial tax on the owner's land holdings. The tax deduction could be the square of the undeveloped fraction covered in each contiguous plot.

If a landholder had one plot of land, 10% of which was undeveloped, that person would get a tax deduction of 10% * 10% * 1, or 1%.

If a landholder had two equal plots of land, each of which was 50% undeveloped, that landholder would get a deduction of (50% * 50% * .5) + (50% * 50% * .5), or 25%.

A landholder who had a single plot of land that was 90% undeveloped would get a deduction of 90% * 90% * 1, or 81%.

It's a rough draft and I'm sure someone who understands policy better than I would ridicule its naïveté but I hope I get the intent across nonetheless. That is, the idea is to reduce overshoot by decreasing the total terrestrial area used for human wants and needs.
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby turmoil » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 06:25:50

It's been one year :!: Lets see how we fare now :)

Quiz Here
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby rogerhb » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 08:20:14

8.5ha
4.7 earths

Perhaps they should to tax our foot prints on the "other earths"!
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby Wildwell » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 08:40:08

CATEGORY GLOBAL HECTARES
FOOD 0.7
MOBILITY 0.1
SHELTER 0.4
GOODS/SERVICES 0.3
TOTAL FOOTPRINT 1.5



IN COMPARISON, THE AVERAGE ECOLOGICAL FOOTPRINT IN YOUR COUNTRY IS 5.3 GLOBAL HECTARES PER PERSON.

WORLDWIDE, THERE EXIST 1.8 BIOLOGICALLY PRODUCTIVE GLOBAL HECTARES PER PERSON.


IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE YOU, WE WOULD NEED 1.0 PLANETS.

(Up adjusted for 100km train/bus travel on average)
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Unread postby Wildwell » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 10:17:07

OilBurner wrote:Got it down to one planet! :D

Trouble is...had to get a lodger in, everyone has to go vegan, everyone must travel using bicycles or on foot and we have to stop flying. :(

At least that's feasible - to a certain degree. Although not at all desirable.


To get it to one planet, you must eat meat products occasionally or not at all, up to 60 miles average per week train or bus travel, live in a small house (row with electricity) in a moderate climate, with no car travel or plane travel…else reduce population.
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 13:19:58

If I had six or eight kids I'd have a smaller footprint. Does that make any sense? :x
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 14:19:15

CATEGORY GLOBAL HECTARES

FOOD 0.8

MOBILITY 0.1

SHELTER 0.7

GOODS/SERVICES 1

TOTAL FOOTPRINT 2.6
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 15:12:34

CATEGORY ACRES

FOOD 5.9

MOBILITY 0.7

SHELTER 11.9

GOODS/SERVICES 11.4

TOTAL FOOTPRINT 30

IN COMPARISON, THE AVERAGE ECOLOGICAL FOOTPRINT IN YOUR COUNTRY IS 24 ACRES PER PERSON.

WORLDWIDE, THERE EXIST 4.5 BIOLOGICALLY PRODUCTIVE ACRES PER PERSON.

IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE YOU, WE WOULD NEED 6.7 PLANETS.

Jesus! 8O

Apparently I'm the most spendy person here.

And I don't even drive that much!

I have a question about the "What is the size of your home?" question.

Does that mean the size of the entire structure in terms of space used on the earth?

Or does it mean the amount of living space?

Cause a 2 story house is bound to be bigger than 2500 square feet.

The test leaves this question up to debate.

And is eating meat once or twice a week really considered "often"?

I mean honestly. Other than vegetarians, the vast majority of my fellow countrymen eat meat more often than that and they drive more than I do. How come I use more land than they do?
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby turmoil » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 16:36:25

Tyler_JC wrote:Does that mean the size of the entire structure in terms of space used on the earth?

Or does it mean the amount of living space?

Living space (think apartments)
"If you are a real seeker after truth, it's necessary that at least once in your life you doubt all things as far as possible"-Rene Descartes

"When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the truth"-Sherlock Holmes
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 16:40:10

stupid_monkeys wrote:
Tyler_JC wrote:Does that mean the size of the entire structure in terms of space used on the earth?

Or does it mean the amount of living space?

Living space (think apartments)


Darn.

So I'm still the biggest land user on the site (so far).

And I still haven't bothered to do the calculations on a per acre or pre hectacre basis.

So please include the number of planets needed to sustain your lifestyle as well.
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby turmoil » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 17:53:51

Ludi wrote:If I had six or eight kids I'd have a smaller footprint. Does that make any sense? :x

well sorta... I assume you are refering to the the number of people in the household. They don't say it has to be kids. If you share that space with that many adults (or kids), it would be much more efficient. I think thats what they are saying.
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Re: Earthday Footprint quiz

Unread postby turmoil » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 17:55:40

For me:

TOTAL FOOTPRINT 18

IN COMPARISON, THE AVERAGE ECOLOGICAL FOOTPRINT IN YOUR COUNTRY IS 24 ACRES PER PERSON.

WORLDWIDE, THERE EXIST 4.5 BIOLOGICALLY PRODUCTIVE ACRES PER PERSON.

IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE YOU, WE WOULD NEED 4 PLANETS.
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