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The Bunker Report

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 25 Mar 2020, 07:37:59

Ibon,

Dads house where I grew up was on the edge of the woods and surrounded by shrubbery. Dad loved the place, built it himself. When retired he would sit on the deck for hours slowly sipping coffee. And once in a while a bird would sit on his foot. He was very much at “home” there.

Dolan,
I very much agree the old work ethic must change. But, for me, it is deeply rooted in my psyche. I appreciate and understand the need for change, it’s just not in my bones given the way I grew up. But I seem to be adapting to retirement fine. FWIW - and along these lines read this, it’s short and very germaine.
http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

As for our BUNKER, (that would be a great boat name)

We pretty much live, all winter, in our floating bunker. And we are not social butterflies. So for us this is all pretty normal. And where we are we have some decent free wifi. So that’s a better plus. So long as things don’t significantly change we are good for a long time.
They have 7 cases in 65k population, all stemming from a returning U.K. couple. Hopefully all in quarantine and contained, hopefully.

.
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 25 Mar 2020, 07:43:13

As a side note my observation is that 93.25% of plain folks and 94.87% of MSM know Jack shit about statistics or how to interpret numbers.

:-D
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 26 Mar 2020, 03:46:57

dolanbaker wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
asg70 wrote:The downside is I would think this event will spur on development of further automation/robotics as robots don't get coronavirus.

That's an excellent point. And the longer this goes on, the more incentive there is for rapid substitution of people with robots. Even if it's a group of robots that needs a human to help one out now and then (while safely distanced from other humans) -- which would provide data for such robots and/or their software to improve with.

More consequences due to unpredictable future events.

It may hasten the introduction of universal basic income for the general population as it becomes clearer to people that we don't need as many human wage slaves to do the work. The old "work ethic" needs to be re-evaluated.

That's my thought exactly. And we could help pay for that with some kind of a robot tax (tax the robot production instead of the worker production).

And yet, on this site, when I bring that idea up, it tends to be met with hysterics by folks that claim to be capitalists.

I'm definitely a capitalist, but just letting people starve because robots supplant more and more humans, re the ability to do jobs most efficiently just doesn't seem like either a moral OR workable solution to me.

Look, if there are plenty of decent jobs and people just don't want to work, that's one thing. But that's NOT what we're talking about here, re the need for the UBI, once the robot/automation technology gets "out of hand".
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 26 Mar 2020, 07:05:47

Outcast_Searcher wrote:That's my thought exactly. And we could help pay for that with some kind of a robot tax (tax the robot production instead of the worker production).

And yet, on this site, when I bring that idea up, it tends to be met with hysterics by folks that claim to be capitalists.

I'm definitely a capitalist, but just letting people starve because robots supplant more and more humans, re the ability to do jobs most efficiently just doesn't seem like either a moral OR workable solution to me.

Look, if there are plenty of decent jobs and people just don't want to work, that's one thing. But that's NOT what we're talking about here, re the need for the UBI, once the robot/automation technology gets "out of hand".


I have gotten the same reaction every time I suggest anything mildly along these lines as well. Even ignoring the moral costs of making productive people feel useless there is the massive social cost that every eliminated worker is one less person paying into SSI/MC funding.

Why should big business get all the benefits of automation while Joe6P gets all the costs?
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 26 Mar 2020, 07:57:45

This is a fascinating discussion.

To the tax point a solution would be to move from an income tax to some kind of productivity tax. The other benefit from such a move would be to move to decouple the economy from population growth, maybe. I’m not sure of that, requires considering.

The more interesting problem is giving people something to do. And I think we have nearly 100 years experience of dealing with this, mostly not well. I have repeatedly linked to Bertrand Russell’s essay

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

because it shows that as early as WWII we had sufficient population for our needs and considers what to do with the new found spare time. He imagines all kinds of lovely pursuits like writing, composing, etc. and I think here he was dead wrong.

My readings and observations lead me to believe that we have an inherent desire to participate in the tribe, to be a necessary cog. If we are not participating then we feel really poorly, depressed, even suicidal. Those of us who do not desire to participate are looked down upon as laggards, anti-social, psychopaths, etc.

On the one hand we have told young folks to “follow their muse” which got them to go deeply into educational debt and acquire degrees that won’t feed them. Other groups have fallen into social decay and resorted to addictive drugs to fill the time.

The government agencies I have been involved with too frequently have a surplus of surplus people. This extends into the big engineering consulting firms I’ve worked with. It’s not universal which shows far more can be done with far less. Efficiency is infrequently valued highly even in for profit companies. I know that’s not a universal experience and some will say they have not seen that. Yes, but it is true in the industries where I worked. Drove me nuts. And then there are all the make work jobs like TSA. Society gets very little direct benefit from their direct efforts.

But society does derive benefit from those folks being employed. It gets them off the street, gives them a sense of place in the society, dignity if you will, it circulates cash which lubricates the economy. And these are far from trivial accomplishments within our culture.

Further automation will only stress the system to come up with additional ways to keep more people occupied and engaged. I don’t know how far we are down that path, or even if there is an end. Or if we are already hanging over.
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 26 Mar 2020, 08:07:15

Actuall, come to think of it, In Praise of Idleness is a perfect read when holed up within The Bunker. :-D
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 27 Mar 2020, 13:34:52

Now this is what I call a bunker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQy89tZ-mRU
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.:Anonymous
Our whole economy is based on planned obsolescence.
Planned obsolescence, one of the largest contributors to the man made element of climate change, but the one least discussed: dolanbaker
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 27 Mar 2020, 15:01:57

Impressive. But no water or cooker or shitter! Exactly what event is it good for? Other than how he is using it.

Now, for us, THIS is a bunker.

Image
Last edited by Tanada on Sat 28 Mar 2020, 19:59:58, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed photo
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Cog » Fri 27 Mar 2020, 19:15:21

Newfie wrote:Impressive. But no water or cooker or shitter! Exactly what event is it good for? Other than how he is using it.

Now, for us, THIS is a bunker.

Image


Apparently it sticks to the side of a wave pretty good too. :-D
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 27 Mar 2020, 19:52:38

Cog wrote:
Newfie wrote:Impressive. But no water or cooker or shitter! Exactly what event is it good for? Other than how he is using it.

Now, for us, THIS is a bunker.

Image


Apparently it sticks to the side of a wave pretty good too. :-D

Sure, Isn't he after sailing across the equator!
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.:Anonymous
Our whole economy is based on planned obsolescence.
Planned obsolescence, one of the largest contributors to the man made element of climate change, but the one least discussed: dolanbaker
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 27 Mar 2020, 20:05:18

Heading North,

Heading South is totally opposite!

*****
I had taken that photo for a technical discussion about that sail. And damned if I could the darn photo to align correctly. It would be like this or the opposite, never correct. So I give up and join the fun. :razz:
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 27 Mar 2020, 20:26:24

Nice bunker...
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Zarquon » Fri 27 Mar 2020, 20:59:27

Ibon wrote:I am walking the common area and the birds that would usually be darting away are just continuing to go about their foraging just a couple feet away from me and paying me no attention. I can't get over this and have no explanation.......


When you see them pass each other little bags of popcorn when a human walks by, you should begin to really worry. Let us know.
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 27 Mar 2020, 23:26:26

Zarquon wrote:
Ibon wrote:I am walking the common area and the birds that would usually be darting away are just continuing to go about their foraging just a couple feet away from me and paying me no attention. I can't get over this and have no explanation.......


When you see them pass each other little bags of popcorn when a human walks by, you should begin to really worry. Let us know.

I remember one day at a pond in RIchmond, KY (maybe 20 years ago) with my girlfriend near EKU where we went to relax and watch the water and the ducks. We had no food for them that day, but just sat quietly, and they pretty much ignored us, and tucked their heads under their wings and took a nap. A few remained alert as guards, which I assume is always the case.

I remember feeling a little guilty, as a human, and thinking that we actually generally don't deserve that much trust. (Perhaps many students feed them there, so they grew increasingly unwary).

(And I know, if they're really hungry, like late fall, you can have a whole gang of them crawling right into your lap if you'll feed them by hand, say, at Natural Bridge state park which has a sh*tload of ducks.)

Ibon, maybe they adapt really quickly to a lot less human foot traffic? (As a random guess).

I still can't get used to the lack of people/traffic whether when I'm walking or especially on the roads.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 28 Mar 2020, 12:58:46

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Ibon, maybe they adapt really quickly to a lot less human foot traffic? (As a random guess).

.


Definitely part of the reason is that the whole common area here has emptied out of people and the birds and wildlife are moving in more. The other reason, a bit more esoteric I admit, is that I am moving about in the space more in the moment and a bit humbled by recent events. Maybe a bit more like Newfie's Dad.

Animals sense more than we are aware of.
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 28 Mar 2020, 17:33:30

Ibon wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Ibon, maybe they adapt really quickly to a lot less human foot traffic? (As a random guess).

.


Definitely part of the reason is that the whole common area here has emptied out of people and the birds and wildlife are moving in more. The other reason, a bit more esoteric I admit, is that I am moving about in the space more in the moment and a bit humbled by recent events. Maybe a bit more like Newfie's Dad.

Animals sense more than we are aware of.


Having grown up on a small farm and having spent a lot of time in the woods in years past I have an observation to make, take it or leave it as you will.

Contrary to the human habit to anthropomorphize animals with human traits the reality is they operate mostly on instinct with an overlay of learned behaviors that have been of a perceived benefit. These habits include things like associating human beings with free tasty food when they are exposed to people who happily toss them bread crumbs or other foods.

Take away the humans and the stimulus of seeing humans and the association with free food doesn't cross their minds as their brains are quite tiny and don't have the capacity for such complex thoughts. They go back to acting as their instincts guide them to act without the stimulus to act differently.

IOW they act like wold animals act when humans are not around, or when humans are neither a threat nor a benefit and thus worthy only of being ignored as part of the background environment. That is how animals treat all other animals if you pause and think about it, if the other animals is a threat they retreat or try and appear capable of defending themselves.

Wild Geese that have successful attacked humans in the past will repeat the behavior to defend territory until they run into a human that fights back. Domesticated animals are trained from birth and selectively bred to be docile around humans, but this is not the case of wild animals.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: The Bunker Report

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 28 Mar 2020, 18:28:02

Newfie wrote:Actuall, come to think of it, In Praise of Idleness is a perfect read when holed up within The Bunker. :-D


Maybe we'll see an uptick in Church of the Subgenius memberships.

Image

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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