[TheAntiDoomer]

If they have to heat the ceramics before the reaction starts then that will steal efficiency away as well as require expensive thermal shielding (which you saw some of in the 60-minutes piece). Sounds almost like a Zebra molten-salt battery.

Uh wrong again, I wonder how many of you actually watched the piece??? He specifically said the shielded was made from a inexpensive alloy.

[JJ]

If they have to heat the ceramics before the reaction starts then that will steal efficiency away as well as require expensive thermal shielding (which you saw some of in the 60-minutes piece). Sounds almost like a Zebra molten-salt battery.

Uh wrong again, I wonder how many of you actually watched the piece??? He specifically said the shielded was made from a inexpensive alloy.

I watched it. Go over to TOD and read some of the comments. Apparently many folks who are far better educated that I are less than impressed.

[shortonsense]

If they have to heat the ceramics before the reaction starts then that will steal efficiency away as well as require expensive thermal shielding (which you saw some of in the 60-minutes piece). Sounds almost like a Zebra molten-salt battery.

Uh wrong again, I wonder how many of you actually watched the piece??? He specifically said the shielded was made from a inexpensive alloy.

I watched it. Go over to TOD and read some of the comments. Apparently many folks who are far better educated that I are less than impressed.

But isn't it interesting that the WORST comments are basically "less than impressed".

There aren't any "its impossible!", or "2nd law of therm says its all a lie!", or "its so ridiculous, all it can do is power houses, cars, local sub grids and large campuses for 2 cents/ kwh more than all other systems generating electricity!".

I certainly haven't seen any claims for "peak beach sand!" thrown in just for fun either.

[mos6507]

There aren't any "its impossible!", or "2nd law of therm says its all a lie!", or "its so ridiculous, all it can do is power houses, cars, local sub grids and large campuses for 2 cents/ kwh more than all other systems generating electricity!".

Even Colin Powell conceded that it's evolutionary, not revolutionary. It's the zeitgeist of the public who is clamoring for silver bullets. They are overly eager to crown the savior of modern civilization because technofix is the only arrow left in the quiver of denial.

So it's this mania that people are trying to tamp down. It's this mania that leads to undeserved attention towards crap like Steorn Orbo or every scientific press release related to batteries or solar that wind up never making the leap from the lab to mass production. You also see these geekgasms that people have over every concept car that gets rolled onto the runway, even if it's nothing but a 3DSMax render by some flybynight trying to cash in on green hype like Zap.



And the media has such a short attention span that after the mania for one magic bullet dies down, it's on to the next magic bullet.

As long as we can be perpetually in a state of hope, then maybe we don't have to focus on our predicament.

Maybe we shouldn't be thinking about collapse by passively waiting around for someone in a black mock turtleneck to get up there like a faux preacher and sell us salvation via consumerism.

[shortonsense]

There aren't any "its impossible!", or "2nd law of therm says its all a lie!", or "its so ridiculous, all it can do is power houses, cars, local sub grids and large campuses for 2 cents/ kwh more than all other systems generating electricity!".

Even Colin Powell conceded that it's evolutionary, not revolutionary. It's the zeitgeist of the public who is clamoring for silver bullets. They are overly eager to crown the savior of modern civilization because technofix is the only arrow left in the quiver of denial.

I don't think the public is clamoring for anything other than cheap gasoline again. The people clamoring for something are either the anti's who want their apocalypse and they want it now ( and tend to discount anything other than 2 Saudi Arabia's being found each year ad infinitum, at various volume levels ) and those who want to stop all human activities which they morally, ethically, financially, religiously or psychologically disagree with.

And the media has such a short attention span that after the mania for one magic bullet dies down, it's on to the next magic bullet.

The media's foibles are an entire nother topic, and they don't appear to have even caught on to the basics, not only is a magic bullet not required, but if they were they would undoubtedly be magic bulletS, and if they paid the least bit of attention they would realize that most of them are already here, and those of us who do notice spend most of our time debating the cost, not the feasibility.

As long as we can be perpetually in a state of hope, then maybe we don't have to focus on our predicament.

I'm sure Malthus thought the same thing....yet here we are....still pretending the same wolf is at the door....which to some extent, it is. But it sure wasn't hope that got us through the last 2 centuries of the wolf being at the door, and I'm betting it won't be hope which gets us through the next 2.

[TheAntiDoomer]

@mos. I thought you were better than that putting steorn and this bloom box in the same paragraph. Shame on you for making a ridiculous comparison to make your point.

[rangerone314]

At least the Bloom Box doesn't seem pathetic as the Segway, with all of its hype.

Maybe Segway's powered by mini-Bloom Boxes will be the future of transportation!

[Graeme]

The Economics of Bloom Energy's 'Breakthrough' Fuel Cell

It appears that the unsubsidized price of the Bloom Box is about $7-8,000/kW, so their 100 kW units cost $700,000-800,000 without subsidy. As a fuel cell, it also needs fuel to run, in this case natural gas or another source of methane (such as landfill gas or biogas from anaerobic digesters).

After federal subsidies for fuel cells (they can claim the same 30% investment tax credit that solar gets) and a $2,500 California rebate, and assuming $7/mmBTU price for natural gas, a 100 kW Bloom Box unit generates electricity at 8-10 cents/kWh. That compares favorable to commercial electricity rates in many parts of the country,(the average is about 11 cents/kWh across the U.S., with higher rates in several states, including California, New York and Hawaii) so there could be a good market for the Bloom Box in distributed generation applications in a variety of places, assuming federal/state subsidies holds out.

forbes

[Windmills]

Interesting, but perhaps I need someone to explain why a different way to burn the same old stuff is revolutionary, at least in terms of energy security or sustainability. Maybe the efficiencies will allow us to postpone our problems or pawn them off on the next generation as we like to do.

I can see third world or developing countries getting excited about it. Assuming the units ever are able to ween themselves off welfare, which could be assuming a lot, these fuel cells could be similar to what cell phones are to telecommunications. You could leap-frog the need for a massive electrical infrastructure by being able to install any sized power wherever you need it, when you need it.

As a result, we'd have even more global competition as more areas of the world were energized and the global wage gradient would get even flatter. Bad news for the people at the top of that gradient. We'd continue to see more businesses flee to areas of cheaper labor as fuel cells open the up for business.

[rangerone314]

Impress me cornies, with something that is impressive. Like fusion power at $0.01/kwh or zero point energy.

What we mostly got now after more than a century of "progress" is endless variations of burning remnants of decayed plants in various putt-putt machines that fart out CO2.

[peripato]

The Economics of Bloom Energy's 'Breakthrough' Fuel Cell

It appears that the unsubsidized price of the Bloom Box is about $7-8,000/kW, so their 100 kW units cost $700,000-800,000 without subsidy. As a fuel cell, it also needs fuel to run, in this case natural gas or another source of methane (such as landfill gas or biogas from anaerobic digesters).

After federal subsidies for fuel cells (they can claim the same 30% investment tax credit that solar gets) and a $2,500 California rebate, and assuming $7/mmBTU price for natural gas, a 100 kW Bloom Box unit generates electricity at 8-10 cents/kWh. That compares favorable to commercial electricity rates in many parts of the country,(the average is about 11 cents/kWh across the U.S., with higher rates in several states, including California, New York and Hawaii) so there could be a good market for the Bloom Box in distributed generation applications in a variety of places, assuming federal/state subsidies holds out.

forbes

The Human Race Starring

[Windmills]

A comment from Mercy Vestal at Ecogeek.org:

"According to Forbes, the actual cost is not $700K or $800K, but more like $900K or a cool million. In addition, from another NYT article the cells only last for THREE YEARS.

That's right, the system has a 10-year lifecycle but the fuel cells will need to be replaced twice. So who pays for that?"

As more details leak out, the more I'm agreeing with Mercy here. They're just trying to raise as much hype as they can so they can get another $400 million from the IPO to keep funding their R&D.

[SeaGypsy]

If it's true the cells only last for 3 years, that's a shame but doesn't kill the concept, as the cells seem to be quite cheap to manufacture and are likely to be able to be recycleable. I would gues the EROEI would be pretty good on this. The other factor of price; it makes perfect sense that these 1st units cost a fortune, there needs to be some return to investors who have so far been very patient in the R&D phase of the project. I would guess that if these gizmos take off they will come down massively in price over say 10 years. There is also the unremote possibility the patent could be sold to a mass manufacturer in China, this could accellerate price drops reverse exponentially. However, the USA desperately needs to hang on to such technologies if possible. How likely is this if the Bloom Box is all it's hyped to be?

[cephalotus]

What a hype about a typical 50% methane fuel cell at a cost of 7000US$/W!

For comparison:

Siemens is able to build GuD gas (=methane) power plants with an efficiency >60% at a fraction of that costs with an already proven and long lasting technology.

http://www.power-technology.com/projects/irsching/

The Siemens GuD is about 8.000 times more powerful, so it is able to "balance" a few hundred large wind turbines: This is exactly what we need in the future and not some super expensive small power plants at home that turn precious fossil fuel needed to balance renewable energies into another fluctuating electricity source.

[Graeme]

This from the front page:

Why is Bloom Energy Lying to Us?

Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely excited about Bloom Energy. I honestly think that their technology is a good thing for the world and that it might very well revolutionize the power infrastructure in America and throughout the world. And yes, it will create jobs and make a select few people very rich.

In fact, I think it's so revolutionary that it doesn't need to be inflated by false or misleading claims...which is why I'm a little put off by a few naughty little lies in the Bloom press release I got this morning.

Annoying press point #1: The Bloom Box "energy server" works with "nearly any fuel source." To me, "nearly any fuel source" means anything containing carbon/hydrogen compounds, ranging from gasoline to wood. The Bloom Box doesn't run on "nearly any fuel source" it runs on methane or methane or methane. That methane can be pumped out of the ground or captured from landfills, but it's still methane, and as I count it, that's one fuel source.

Annoying press point #2: Companies using the Bloom Box can "expect a three to five year payback on their capital investment." This is insane. The average cost per kW/h in California is 14 cents and Bloom promises a cost of roughly 9 cents. 100 kW multiplied by 8760 hours in a year times $0.05 per kW means 100 kW of continual electricity consumption over the course of the year will save a company a maximum of $45,000 per year. Call me crazy, but I don't see how they're going to pay for a $700,000 piece of equipment (even with a 50% government subsidy that won't last forever) over the course of three or five years by saving $45k per year.

Annoying press point #3: Probably what annoys me most about Bloom's press release is that they claim the box "provides a cleaner, more reliable, and more affordable alternative to both today’s electric grid as well as traditional renewable energy sources." Again, if it's not an outright lie, it's at least very misleading. The Bloom Box might be more reliable than both, but it isn't cheaper than the grid and it isn't cleaner than solar or wind. Marketing double-speak isn't good for anyone. If you take that sentence at face value, then you might as well cease all development of solar and wind and put 100% of the country's resources into Bloom Boxes.

Bloom Energy's technology is fantastic and exciting. It's much cleaner than our current electricity infrastructure and more practical than distributed solar. It's great, but there's no reason to make false claims when your product is this revolutionary.

ecogeek

I had a quick look at the comments. I what struck me was this comment:

The fact that their demo models cost $700,000 bears NO reflection on what their actual cost is going to be once they go into production on a large scale. When that happens, costs will come down. Then we can start getting real about whether it's going to be worthwhile.

[Graeme]

Fuel Cell Maker Bloom Energy Opens the Kimono

Bloom Energy, a fuel cell company that aims to help homes and businesses generate their own electricity from hydrogen and oxygen, publicly unveiled its technology and an impressive list of major customers at a Feb. 24 press conference attended by California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and former U.S. Secretary of State General Colin Powell.

The Sunnyvale (Calif.) company, which was named a World Economic Forum Technology Pioneer in December, was in the headlines again this week after being featured on CBS News’ 60 Minutes on Feb. 21. It turns out that Bloom Energy has already signed up customers including Google, Coca-Cola, eBay, Wal-Mart, Staples, Bank of America, Cox Enterprises, and Fedex Express, a unit FedEx—further fueling excitement about the startup.

Privately-held Bloom Energy has already gained significant momentum: The company says it has raised “hundreds of millions of dollars” in venture capital from the likes of venerable Silicon Valley firm Kleiner, Perkins, Caulfield & Byers. Board members include Powell; Eddy Zervigon, a managing director at Morgan Stanley; and T.J. Rodgers, the chairman of solar cell maker SunPower. And some of America’s biggest companies are installing Bloom’s modular power-plant-in-a-box system, attracted by the promise of being able to efficiently generate their own electricity on site while reducing their carbon footprint, lowering energy costs, and mitigating the risk of power outages.

That said, he acknowledges it will take at least three to five years before Bloom boxes reach "grid parity" for home use, or price competitiveness with traditional residential-scale electric supplies.

businessweek

[TheAntiDoomer]

Bloom Energy Launches Electricity Service Program
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS9777404420110120

The most talked about company in cleantech in 2010, fuel cell company Bloom Energy, announced Thursday morning that it’s launching an offer for 10-year electricity contracts with no upfront payment for the Bloom Box fuel cell itself, which usually costs between $700,000 to $800,000. Calling the service “Bloom Electrons,” the product is basically like a power purchase agreement, which are common for the renewable energy sector and utilities.

[DoomersUnite]

Bloom Energy Launches Electricity Service Program
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS9777404420110120

The most talked about company in cleantech in 2010, fuel cell company Bloom Energy, announced Thursday morning that it’s launching an offer for 10-year electricity contracts with no upfront payment for the Bloom Box fuel cell itself, which usually costs between $700,000 to $800,000. Calling the service “Bloom Electrons,” the product is basically like a power purchase agreement, which are common for the renewable energy sector and utilities.

I watched that 60 minutes show way back when this stuff was announced.

Excellent that it is still rolling. I say that they should be mandated for every landfill in the country.

[DoomersUnite]

I say that they should be mandated for every landfill in the country.

that is precisely where Bloom belongs. In a landfill, for distracting the populace from real problems and offering fake solutions. These greedy faux capitalists should be ashamed.

Energy is a real problem. Bloom can take methane from whatever source and convert it into electricity. This is certainly a good thing, particularly considering the amount of methane created by the average landfill, which would otherwise contribute to global warming scenarios.

Turn it into electricity instead, and run the transport system. Not a distraction at all.